At a friends place and first time here. Not using his ID.

Bishop interview and was asked about porn, "self abuse" and problems with that type of thing.

No problems, but admitted going to a fertility specialist since my wife and I had not been able to conceive after more than year of trying. Part of the exam was "sperm count" and producing a sample for testing. Over a year of visits and a number of times in a small room with magazines and videos for stimulation to help with the sample it seems low motility is permanent. So we went with intrauterine insemination and after a number of times with no success it was in vitro fertilization.

Took some time but finally, success.

Then, the fateful interview when I was to be called to the Bishopric as a counselor. Never knew this Bishop could be so intrusive and insensitive with his questions. He really homed in on "self abuse" and "looking at porn" to do so.

Stake President was called and another even worse interview - ended with a Court of Love and Disfellowship was the result. Apparently many found out WHY - a "porn problem" and "dirty wanker" - seems some of the loving Priesthood leaders talk to wives and in Sunday Morning meetings and lay out what was said in private.

At least a year of punishment for a medical procedure - and the embarrassing situation of being shunned as a sex pervert in the Ward and Stake where we used to live. I say used to live as my job was with active LDS who found out about the whole thing - via gossip - and I was given 6 weeks pay but let go the day he called me into the office. Security escorted me off the premises with my desk belongings in a cardboard box.

We had enough savings to move. We did so. Listed the house(it finally sold - OK price) and moved out of "zion" and have never again set foot in an LDS building or meeting. Have not formally resigned and may not do so just to keep the name there to piss them off.

All this over trying to have kids and medical tests.

I used to hear of crazy stuff and knew it was all made up. Could not be true. Figured the friends who left couldn't hack it or were offended - the usual excuses we were told in talks and Priesthood and such. Now I find it is reality and apparently I was a fool.

As I wrote, an old friends computer. Visiting him as we moved into the State he is in. Few mormons here and it is interesting to meet people without hearing "what Ward are you in". About a year here now and no one has bothered us about church. Closest was one woman checker in the grocery store as I overheard her talking to woman in front of me - apparently they attend the same denomination. "Our doors are always open and you are always welcome" - and that was all that was said when I asked where they were talking about. No pushing, no missionaries, no sudden best friend.

Still very unhappy about having been labeled a "porn addict" but the move has been good. If I ever run across the Bishop or Stake prez I'm not sure if I'll kick them in the ass or thank them.

I, too, was disfellowshipped for self-pleasuring. As I’ve posted before, my bishop chided me for not being married and meeting my sexual desires through my hand. How, he reasoned, was I going to want to get married if I had sex with myself? If I stopped jerking it, I would ask a woman to marry me so I could have sex with her.

Please consider that last part carefully. Isn’t that the most disgusting objectification of a woman—to make her a vehicle for my sexual gratification?

And, yes, I too moved out of my BYU stake-area to get away from the first counselor in the stake presidency who told me he could tell just by looking at me if I had masturbated.

If you’re worried that you view too much porn, consider that possibly you’re using porn not for pleasure or because of an addiction to it—but rather as a reason to label yourself as a “no good wanker, porn-obsessed, unworthy to hold the priesthood evil person. Because that’s what the Mormon cult wants you to believe about yourself. Why? Because cults use shame to control people.

Let yourself off the hook. Refuse to be shamed.

I hadn't read your story before BYUB. Wow. What a crazy church. Chasing people away and sending them to us. :)

I didn't even know about this reason for being d'd. Seems extreme.


BYU Boner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you’re worried that you view too much porn,
> consider that possibly you’re using porn not for
> pleasure or because of an addiction to it—but
> rather as a reason to label yourself as a “no
> good wanker, porn-obsessed, unworthy to hold the
> priesthood evil person.

My impression from the OP's account is that he's paraphrasing what the bishop said, or indicated, not that the poster has this view of himself. As he said, he was looking at medically-supplied porn (lol) for a reason the pregnancy-obsessed Mormon Church leaders would comprehend and support, you'd think. Somewhere, you'd hope, reason would prevail.

It sounds to me like the poster is content with his choices and that's great.

Really. Incredibly. Clueless. Leaders.

Sounds like they've lost a good man, and his good wife, and their going-to-be-amazing little bundle of joy.

The church's loss the exmo community's gain.

I can honestly say that I do not remember being asked about self abuse in my various interviews. I am certain I would have denied doing any of it on the basis it's none of anyone's business. I had some good men for bishops up until I walked away, at least.

Constant shame is definitely their weapon of choice and very effective i might add. Life is miserable when you feel shame all the time for every action.

Anyways, how have you been boner? It has felt like a very long time.

I’ve actually been very well, Warrior. Thanks for asking.

Happy to hear it old friend. I'm still alive.

-Adam

> If I ever run across the
> Bishop or Stake prez I'm
> not sure if I'll kick them
> in the ass or thank them.

First one, then the other!


I can just see you trying to be orderly and scientific as you explain the process... And you probably showed a little pride in your stick-to-it-tiveness and that the process was successful...

And all the time the bishop was seeing a chance to exercise righteous dominion! He did it for your own good!


The machinations of the human mind, when drunk on power, are both fascinating and terrifying.

Also, nice to have you visit. If you ever need to read about famous scientists saying or printing the word 'god', you're gonna love it here!!

Reminds me of a gag I heard on this board:

Ex-Mo: "Coffee has many healthful benefits."
TBM "Like what?"
Ex-Mo: "It keeps me from becoming a Mormon."

Porn, WoW,Tithing, ANYTHING to keep them busy / away from Honesty, Kindness, Caring & Compassion.

Repentance & Forgiving only get lip service as does anti-divorce chat.

Mainstreaming? What's that?
they think Correlation is much better when there's a choice.

Hi One time poster. First, let me say welcome to the board. I'm so glad you found us and that you trust us enough to share your deeply personal story. Even though it's anonymously, it can still be difficult to open up and expose one's painful experiences.

Then I'll say wow. I've read some amazing accounts here over the years of people's experiences with Mormonism. Yours is right up there with the toughest, most unbelievable, most sure-to-show-Mormonism-in-its-worst-light things that we've read. And it's likely a first - I've never heard a similar story before.

I am so sorry you had to endure such idiocy, especially over something so deeply meaningful to you and your wife and regarding something so personal.

On the bright side, and I hope it is, or will be, a bright side for you: It caused you to see the church from a different view and perhaps (and it sounds like it) you will get away from Mormonism, and your soon-to-be-child (and others if you desire and are so fortunate) will not have to cope with it growing up.

You discovered what so many have before you: There appears to be no secrets kept from the gossip mill in every ward. Many people have mentioned here that they have encountered such breaches of privacy themselves, where a bishop's wife or others are given private and confidential information about fellow ward members. That is, of course, completely juvenile, unprofessional and unacceptable. I'm sorry that happened to you and, by extension, to your wife.

The fact that you could confide in your bishop, especially about what is actually a medical situation, and that he could go all church bad cop on you, and that you would then be disfellowshipped is so wrong in many ways. I would hope that other leaders, especially the top people, would recognize injustice when they see or hear about it, such as what happened to you, but I would not hold my breath. They seem truly ignorant at times like these.

I'll just quickly mention that in regular mainstream (i.e. non-Mormon) churches, members are not required to be "interviewed" by "leaders" and forced to disclose private information or be judged, much less punished, for personal choices, medical issues or any other family matters. And if anyone came to know about situations such as yours they would be considered private and normal. Just another day at the medical office. Your business. Nobody else's.

The Mormons were wrong on so many levels in what happened to you: First, that you were questioned about personal issues in order to qualify for a volunteer position they were calling you to (i.e. requiring you to do, in essence, which is how most callings are viewed, as requirements, not vocations or free choices). Second, they took a medical matter and turned it into a "sin". Ignorant in the extreme.

This is an excellent illustration of what can happen when you run an organization with unqualified leaders (starting at the top). Your bishop can be an insurance salesman. Suddenly, he's considered the oracle of God to a building full of people with all the experiences and issues that life throws in everyone's path. What does he know about theology, medicine, philosophy, education, economics, biology, psychology or planting a garden? Not much, unless he has pursued and gained specific information about one or a few of such fields of human endeavour. You might want to seek his advice about your travel insurance but likely not about who you should marry or whether your trained and educated physician is giving you acceptable advice or not!


One time said:
> At least a year of punishment for a medical
> procedure - and the embarrassing situation of
> being shunned as a sex pervert in the Ward and
> Stake where we used to live.

I'm so sorry. It must have been a shock for you and your wife. Seems like they've lost a good family through their own stupidity.

The fact that you also lost your job surely is actionable in some way; that your private information was leaked out or even that it was an unjust firing. And being escorted out must have been a shock and embarrassment too. Should further add to a damage award, which you richly deserve.


> All this over trying to have kids and medical
> tests.

Again, it clearly shows completely inept, untrained, uninformed leadership that runs the church. There is actually a reason that people go to school to learn how to be ministers, councillors and other similar types of professions. So they will have a CLUE about the situations they will encounter in which people will seek their assistance, and trust them to give appropriate advice and guidance.


> Now I find it is reality and apparently I was a fool.

Not a fool. Just a guy who didn't come up against the church's reality until now.


I'm glad you had the opportunity to move and that you have a friend whose computer you can use to chat with us. I hope that sometime you will have to change your board name because you will come here again and will no longer be "One time poster". :)


> Still very unhappy about having been labeled a
> "porn addict" but the move has been good. If I
> ever run across the Bishop or Stake prez I'm not
> sure if I'll kick them in the ass or thank them.

Of course - anybody would be unhappy over that. So unfair. So wrong. (And for the record, a person can view porn without being labelled as, or becoming, an "addict").


You know how I can tell you're going to be just fine? Because you've managed to keep a great sense of humour. As someone suggested above, both of these actions, a kick and a thanks-a-bunch, would be equally understandable and likely very satisfying.

It sounds like you have a lot of happiness ahead with the successful pregnancy and all the joy of raising a family, on terms you and your wife get to choose for yourselves. And not being Mormon, should you choose to forgo the process of re-upping once they lift your disfellowshipment, if they do so.

Court of Love? I think not.

We'd love to hear more from you. I hope you feel welcome to return. No preaching. No services. Just good folks to chat with. And you don't have to "confess" anything at all to us. But an update on baby would be very happy news.

Take care. Glad you found us. Thanks for posting. All the best to you and yours.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2020 11:41PM by Nightingale.

Maybe in Utah fertility clinics, there should be an option of having your wife come in to the extraction room with you to help with the process of obtaining a sperm sample, instead of using pornography. The mormon rules against 'medical pornography' are stupid. But for those who want to stay in the church and need such a procedure, maybe that could be an option. Of course, it just makes so much more sense to just resign your church membership.

The real "Self abuse" is spending a lifetime attending their interminable pointless meetings

They could have just given probation.

Seriously, I am sorry that they put you up through this.

Now you know...

You were rescued by your little visitor from the future. :)

The weird part is that inside the church, this kind of insane thinking is considered normal. When it comes to sex, distorted thinking runs wild. Women’s (and little girls) shoulders are eroticized. Dallin Oaks obsesses over gays like Commander Queeg obsessing over missing strawberries. Marriage is treated like Willy Wonka’s golden ticket of sex.

Even if excess porn is bad for you, the cure is worse than the disease. The church is full of that kind of bad mental hygiene. There are some things I like about the church, but the stench ruins it for me.

Think of this as a graduation. You could have spent your whole life in Junior High as most Mormons do. No more hall monitors and visits to the principals office.

If you want to after you process all this (which may take years) you can continue your spiritual journey way past the point where the Mormons stopped your seeking by telling you they had the answers. They have the stories of a womanizing con man, which are wearing thin causing them to panic like rats on a sinking ship.

...no. You have to pay extra for that.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/how-be-yourself/201610/self-injury-4-reasons-people-cut-and-what-do

Kids raised in a household where sadness, hurt, or disappointment get invalidated or mocked start to believe that it’s not okay to feel bad. They turn to cutting as an “acceptable” way to feel pain—if they’re not allowed to feel it emotionally, they’ll let it out physically.

In short, think of cutting and self-harm as any other unhealthy coping mechanism like getting drunk, binge eating, or getting high; it’s a way to feel something other than what you’re feeling, or it can be a way to punish yourself for not measuring up.

It goes without saying that cutting is dangerous. Even when suicide isn’t the intention, it’s all too easy to cut too deeply. In fact, individuals who cut know it’s unhealthy, and they often go to great lengths to hide their behavior—not to mention their scars.

Sorry this happened to you even if it turns out to be a 'blessing in disguise'.
I once had a church job that required attendance at those Ward Council gossip fests. Personal information about ward members was often discussed which most of those in the room, including me, had no business knowing about.
I'm sure it would be beneath Russ and company to care about correcting this problem of lack of confidentially but that is one administrative change that might actually make a difference in members lives.

My friend was gleefully shacked up with her boyfriend when I heard the all-powerful chatting about disfellowshipping her right in the foyer. In.The.Foyer!

She shunned me the worst after I left.

Technically you were disfellowshipped for honesty and for giving volunteer busy bodies authority over you life.

This is probably the biggest problem with Mormonism. Any organization that encourages you to lie is toxic. These invasive interviews involving whether you touched yourself, how often, how it felt, what were you wearing, did you cum, etc should be the subject of lawsuits.

I’m pretty sure I could fix Mormonism. Do I want to? No.

Bishop - Do you masturbate?
Member - Have you been called by God?
Bishop - Yes
Member - Do you have the spirit of discernment?
Bishop - Yes
Member - Then why are you asking?

Bishop - Do you have a problem with masturbation?

Member - No, bishop. It works every time!

Funny. I have a relative who’s wife had a hard time conceiving. He told me they tried artificial insemination and he had to jack off and they had porn to help you pop the load. Anyways he said it was really awkward. This relative later became a bishop.

My experience in the church is bishops and all church leaders really differ. Some are really laid back and others are like micromanaging control freaks. The reality is the church runs with a volunteer clergy and that creates a lot of problems.

Never confess anything to a church leader. They are really just members of the congregation and not qualified to give good answers and confidentiality in the church is horrible.

Growing up I always thought "self abuse", "jerking off", etc., was just to tide one over until you met a partner that was just as horney as you were and wanted to get it on.

Wow! the M. officials need to stop intruding into these private affairs. This is absolutely none of their business! I'm so sorry anyone (BYU boner and others) have gone through any of this.

Masturbation (or "self-abuse") and pornography use would not be grounds for excommunication unless accompanied by other more serious misconduct. Nevertheless, this report illustrates how arbitrary LDS Church discipline can be. While the Church issues directives for Church discipline in its General Handbook of Instructions, much of the actual procedures depends on interpretation by local bishops and Stake Presidents. Therefore, anything can happen (and does).

What any bishop or Stake President decides may be directly opposed by another bishop in another stake. Not only are there inconsistencies, but there can be direct abuse. Does a bishop apply harsh discipline when he dislikes a member? Do bishops act under pressure to be easy/hard because of their connections?

"...this report illustrates how arbitrary LDS Church discipline can be."

A most excellent point.

It's very unfair to members.

It's only to be expected, unfortunately, when the leaders are laypeople; i.e. not qualified by normal human standards to perform the expected duties of their positions.

Let me "confess" my experiences dealing with confession of masturbation or pornography use to local LDS leadership. They are in no position to judge anyone for their private sexual expression.

My oddest discovery was when I tried to convince my local leaders that I couldn't take any ward callings. Our special needs son precluded me from doing what they thought was easy for any priesthood holder to do in the evenings "if I had a testimony." How could I be all over the ward in the evening when both parents had to be home at all times? Their threats didn't budge me. I told them that I viewed porn. Immediately they pulled me from all callings. Bingo! We have a winner.

My futile attempts to end pornography led me into LDS Family Services counselling. When their counselling didn't help, I decided that I should resign from the Church. Their pressure was damaging me psychologically.

It was then that my LDS counsellor (and a Stake President in another province) let me in on the great secret (tm). Private sexual expression was only a "sin" when a member was trying to overcome it. Interesting... So if I stopped trying to overcome pornography, viewed it (or not viewed it) as I chose, I would be fine as long as I never mentioned it to a bishop again? Bingo! Another winner.

Nobody has mentioned yet the conversion therapy at BYU and they used porn to do it. They use porn to their "advantage" and they say you can't use it or get disfellowshipped. What is it?

My husband was called to be the ex. sec. and then the bishop called me in (I resisted for a while as I refused to go to interviews with bishops after I got married to my gay husband) to tell me that my husband would be one of the next 2 bishops. I immediately went inactive. He had been called as ex. sec and then I found out he was cheating. I refused to allow him to tell the bishop. We were waiting for him to get released and then he would go inactive. All this time, he was attending the temple on bishopric evening and he had to make excuses for me as I refused to go. I told him he should have just told them I didn't want to go.

That was in about 1994. The experiences I had before we married about the gay issue were a nightmare. I don't know why we stayed. If we were going to get married, as we didn't know what else to do, then we thought we should give them a shot in having some answers. What a load of shit that was.

Anyway, we've been out since.

For some of us, it is life experience that opens our eyes to the insanity that is mormonism. The history is great icing on the cake.

Welcome to the board!

Your Mormon "leaders" were a bunch of whack-a-doodles. I'm sorry that you had to endure that level of insanity and disrespect.

The Mormon church trains its members to think that invasive questions are okay. They are not. None of these people are trained professionals. They are not trained and certified physicians, counselors, etc. who must follow privacy laws and who have your best interests at heart. There is nothing inherently spiritual about the Mormon leadership.

I underwent a similar awakening as a born-and-raised Catholic when I realized that I didn't have to buy into the Catholic view of women and the church. I didn't have to think of myself as a second class citizen. I didn't have to think that just because someone held "the priesthood," they had a special knowledge and wisdom that was somehow beyond me.

Just because someone tries to sell you something, doesn't mean that you have to buy it.

Your nevermo and Catholic perspectives are interesting, summer.

I could never imagine myself routinely going to a priest for "confession". To me, private things are private. In the several different-denomination BAC-type churches I have attended, they teach of a "priesthood of all believers" which I understood to mean that your life is between you and God. That is just fine with me. No confession about anything at all to a human male. Perhaps that confession ritual, above all else in their system, kept me from ever drifting towards Catholicism, even though it was the church of my close maternal relatives, although only my grandmother and one aunt were really into it. Even my most faithful (in that respect) aunt was let down by her priest when it came to her funeral service, a great disappointment to us in view of her many years as an active churchgoer.

I think formal clergy are at least more trained and experienced than most Mormon leaders, including even their prophets, so not only do the doctrine and ethos of Mormonism cause issues for members but so do the inexperience, ineptitude and ignorance (in terms of lack of formal training) of the assigned temporary leaders.

The Mormon tenet that when the prophet has spoken the thinking is done is a trap that can ensnare members for life if they don't at some point come to realize that "special knowledge and wisdom", as you say, summer, is *not* beyond their own selves to gain on their own, for themselves, for their lives, without needing any kind of lifelong teacher or intermediary.

Besides, who is to say that any of the so-called prophets actually possess special knowledge and wisdom? In fact, from experience, research and examples we can decisively say they do not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2020 06:20PM by Nightingale.

Even as a rather unquestioning child, the Catholic way of confession struck me as being absurd. I was what, nine years old? I was a good and obedient child. What did I have to confess?

As an adult, I feel the same way. I've avoided the major transgressions. I refuse to feel guilty for being merely human.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2020 06:29PM by summer.

or something like that;

at least YBU students have a (loosly written, I'm betting) Code of Conduct (whatever they call it).

In Mormondumb, one might be dissed (whatever they call it now) for spitting on the sidewalk, littering, or not signalling a turn;


That's the way ChurchCo likes it, in FACT needs it so they can 'rely' on the discretion / 'discernment' of their Bps & SPs.


Now for the next lesson...

I'm not sure if you knew this but when a missionary masturbates he has to pay the mission president $10.

That's how the church has 100 BILLION

I ran a tab ...

Pay your tab, it might increase to 200 Billion..

If you check out human sexuality from the Kinsey Institute, most men and many women have masturbated. It is not too unrealistic to assume that most LDS leaders at every level have self abused. Think about that when some LDS leader raises the issue with you

Why didn't you take pictures of your wife to your medical procedure?

Is looking at pictures of your naked wife a sin?

God, unbelievable. If you hadn't been LDS, I wouldn't have believed it at all.

The real sin is that all those men in the bishopric, stake presidency, and high council masturbate. Supposedly, 100% of all able boys and men do it, and 84% of all able women. And considering a bishopric, stake presidency, high counsellors, and the executive secretary, that's 19 people, and someone in there who is busy helping to excommunicate and disfellowship members also has a bit of crumpet on the side that they're sexually active with. It's a den of hypocrites.

So...what you're saying is that the infertility problems you & your wife went through basically saved your family from having to spend the rest of your days in that messed up religion.

In other words, the infertility was a real blessing in disguise.

Their reasons for disfellowshipping you are totally stupid. And wrong.

Of course, you know that there's nothing wrong with you. You're just fine. It's that entire organization that is messed up.

I almost want to call BS for being "fired" from your job on this but I read this yesterday...

https://www.cityweekly.net/BuzzBlog/archives/2020/02/29/masturbation-blues

Specifically this-
https://le.utah.gov/~2020/pamend/sb0174.sfaf.02.pdf

"prohibits a male from causing an ejaculation to occur outside of a vagina"

So...no pulling out???? I know why that language is in there, to hold men responsible, but that is Utah-bat-sh1t crazy to me..

I worked at Thiokol in Promontory, Utah. At least half the employees were from out of state. There were a lot of problems between the 2 groups and a lot of the nonmormons left after several years as they couldn't take it. My boyfriend worked there back when I did. He got a lower raise than another guy because the other guy had 5 kids and the boss felt that he needed more money. My boyfriend has a degree in chemistry and this other guy did not have a degree that had anything to do with what they worked on.

One of my nonmormon friends was trying to find a job as he had been laid off and tried coming back to Thiokol. He didn't get the job. The guy who had tried to get him hired wasn't mormon and he told my friend they were holding out for a mormon, but they can't say that out loud. I told my friend that if he ever got another interview, to tell them he was investigating the church as I was sure he would get the job. I worked around these type of mormons. I also worked around some really down to earth nice mormon men, which were a breath of fresh air to those of us who needed to see a nice mormon and for the nonmormons.

My boyfriend now works in Utah again. The place he works has insane mormon issues. He got the job because the company is national and he worked at another plant before he got his job here and the bigwigs gave him the job. There is a real issue with SP and bishop worship there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2020 03:09PM by cl2.

I no longer give interviews to bishops so it doesn't matter!!
My question in answer to their probes became
?Why do you need to know that?
Then my response became "That is none of your business!!"

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I no longer give interviews to bishops so it
> doesn't matter!!
> My question in answer to their probes became
> ?Why do you need to know that?
> Then my response became "That is none of your
> business!!"

You could reply, "Doesn't your power of discernment answer your questions? My power of discernment tells me you haven't been honest with your interviews regarding sexual matters and honesty with your fellow man".

“It’s probing time.” - Paul the Alien