Something I have noticed as a gentile about Mormon Missionaries and actually Jehovah Witness, when they come to the door etc. They seldom carry a Bible and seldom reference the Bible. But always say they are a Christian Religion. Are they truly Christian or not?

Unless they renounce outright their belief in celestial exaltation, the exclusive sacerdotal claims of tCoJCoLds, and the necessity of works (rituals) conducted in their temples as opposed to salvation by faith, through grace.

There remain other problems, such as their belief in a "Preexistence," eternal nature/status of marriage and family relationship, celestial polygamy, spiritual efficacy of their priesthood, and so on. Those are glaring but secondary departures from historic Christianity. But the big thing is salvation by works and their peculiar understanding of the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ.

Of course they don't carry Bibles. In a quad, maybe. But the Bible holds subordinate value to the BoM and the J&D.

The bible contradicts their beliefs if they ever cared to read it. Jesus spoke against secret combinations and said that god makes no oaths with men also for example.

No. It will burn them. Kinda like when a cross touches a vampire.

Not to defend Mormons, but….honesty they’re as “Christian” as just about any other denomination that claims to worship Jesus. Mormons cherry-pick passages from the Bible that seem to support their theology, but so does pretty much every Christian church.

It can be argued that the Bible contains very little (if any) of Jesus’ teachings. The only books in the Bible that contain Jesus’ alleged words are the gospels (a tiny fraction of the Bible). Even orthodox, conservative biblical scholars admit that no first hand (or probably second or third hand) accounts of Jesus’ life exist. None of Jesus’s teachings were written until decades after his death, and by that time, who knows how many times they had told from one person to the next?

The messages that are commonly attributed to Jesus (love, forgiveness, taking care of the poor, etc.) are ignored by Christians of various denominations and instead we get things that no one even claims Jesus taught about (abortion, homosexuality) or things that actually go directly against the teachings in the gospels (like prosperity being a sign of approval from God).

And guns! Jesus just loves guns! (per Family Research Council, super-Christians)

From 2014:

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/jesus-return-earth-ar-15-assault-rifle-article-1.1620805

CrispingPin Wrote:
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> Not to defend Mormons, but….

I agree that readers don't come here expecting to see defence of Mormonism. In fact, I think that "defence of the faith" is not allowed here. At least, mopologists are not permitted to post if they are intent on defending Mormon beliefs (which, by definition, I guess most are).

But. Neither is it a place for the age-old argument of who is Christian or not. I get what caffiend is saying, from an EV standpoint. But those are shark-infested waters in these parts.

I see the question more as being a case of if you're using the Bible you're on the spectrum of Christianity. Then you can argue amongst yourselves as to meanings and interpretation. I think that to outsiders the distinction is negligible between various takes on what a certain scripture means or even what the entire religion is about. I note that many denominations within the Christian circle focus on certain specific aspects of the gospel, each one emphasizing some teachings more than others. Some have a wider view (i.e. United Church), others emphasize certain scriptural interpretations and injunctions (i.e. more fundamentalist style).

As for Mormons carrying the Bible, I think they tend to use their quad (all the LDS-related scriptures in one book), but maybe that's changed. Maybe they have an alternative now to just carry the Bible. Others would know better than I do. I don't see as many LDS missionaries now as before (likely due to COVID) but I note they don't seem to carry their books as much as they used to - perhaps due to the newer approach of just offering to help people or institutions (such as serving breakfast at a homeless shelter, where they wouldn't expect to be preaching).

Re JWs, they do generally carry the Bible - their own translation (New World Translation/NWT) - as well as an array of other books to give away and their magazines of course. Their Bible is not much different from the KJV, in my opinion, but many have a different impression on that. There are a few key scriptures they have changed in order to promote certain key doctrines that differentiate them from mainstream Christianity. The big one, which renders them "not Christian" to most in the Christian world, is John 1:1 - The KJV states "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". The NWT changes this scripture to: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was *a* God". Of course, this is blasphemy to Christians - "the Word" refers to Jesus Christ and they do not consider him "a god", as that makes him "lesser than" in their view. (JWs do not believe in the Trinity of mainstream Christianity).

JWs consider themselves Christians and all others not "true" Christians. I guess that's not much different from what other Christian/Bible-based groups say about their own group and all others. Definitely, many Christian churches teach that both Mormons and JWs are not Christian.

Both groups use the Bible at their meetings. In my experience, the JWs use the Bible more than do Mormons. When I gave a (rare) talk in the Mormon chapel and included a couple of KJV scriptures (not feeling comfortable with the unfamiliar - to me - LDS scriptures) one of the missionaries told me that was a new one on him. I hadn't really noticed until then how little *any* scriptures are used in SMs, with most of the talks being about missionary work or people giving their testimony.

For the record I will say that in my experience of attending various churches the most frequent use of the Bible, from the pulpit and amongst the congregation, has been in the EV denominations. That shouldn't be too surprising.

Ecumenism is alive and well, at least in my neck of the woods, where various faiths try to find common ground with less emphasis on who is "right" or "wrong". I prefer that approach but some decidedly do not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2020 07:00PM by Nightingale.

Most evangelicals think mormons aren't christians because mormons believe jesus and lucifer are brothers. They get really really offended at that for some reason? They also don't like that mormons added to the gospel and made secret temples and secret covenants when the bible says "I don't dwell in temples made of hands." And then there is the polygamy thing and Adam is God doctrine that gets confusing. And recently they get offended at the priesthood ban and say mormons are racist!

Among other things.I think the biggest issue is the nature of God and Jesus as God in human form.

The book of mormon says that mormons are Christian because they believe that you must have faith in christ, be baptised by immersion and believe in and accept the atonement of christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

Beyond this point it the interdenominational squabble as to who is or is not Christian that many denominations seem to enjoy engaging in.

This confusion of claims and counter claims over minutia is the very thing that mormons claim caused Joseph Smith to seek out god in prayer leading to a "first vision" that began Joseph on a path to "restoring" God's church.

They carry a quadruple combination -- Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price all under one cover. The book is about four inches thick -- a bit awkward to hold in their hands. That's why most Mormon missionaries use backpacks.

Back when I was a missionary, the "quad" hadn't been invented yet, so the Bible was by itself and the three Mormon scriptures were together.

Also, I don't know what the missionaries teach these days (and maybe they don't know either) but we used to use scriptures from the OT and NT to try to validate Mormon doctrines.

I wouldn't say that they are "Christian", as in followers of the Jesus in the NT. IMO, a better name would be "Smithian",since they adore JS.
They refer to JS as the "lynchpin", and that no man will be able to be in the presence of HF except by JS's permission.
TSCC is two things: A business and a cult.

I'm going on a bit of a bender here.

I'm inclined to accept anyone's profession of faith at face value. If the person says he or she practices Hinduism, I don't necessarily disbelieve him or her even if the form or worship or manner of living doesn't necessarily look the way I might think it should.

I feel likewise with regard to Christianity. I'm even OK with accepting an organized group's profession of association with a religious designation including Christianity. Mormons as a body may not practice Christianity as common sense tells me it should be practiced, but it doesn't interfere with my life, religious or otherwise, if I don't actively dispute whatever faith tradition they claim to hold. In many cases, obviously, I can not take the person's or group's profession of faith all that seriously, and in some cases it's even hard not to laugh, but I don't feel that I have to make some sort of formal statement of disbelief in the person's or group's claim to a state of religiosity. I still have belief that Jesus was real on at least some level, but others making the same claim yet having a different vision of how it should look in real time do not diminish my own experience, nor do those who cannot except that a real Jesus ever lived in any way diminish my quality of faith or life.

On the other hand, my acceptance of others' professions of faith does not extend itself to any person or group having the power to dictate to me what following Jesus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or tri-tip burritos or any other deity must involve or look like in my life, nor do I need to give any of my money to them.

I still have every right to say I was harmed by the organization that calls itself "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints," as does anyone else who experienced cognitive dissonance, ostracism, stunted growth, outright abuse, or mistreatment in any form. If the Mormons (I'll call them that anytime I want regardless of what Rusty says) want to refer to themselves as Christians, fine. If they want to change things up and call themselves Rastafarians, that, too, is fine.

It's a work in progress.

Thanks for all the response. It all helps me. I asked this question only because over many years, I have seldom if ever had a missionary display or pull out a Bible and read or quote from it, and I have always allowed them into my home. I have even been invited and attended church events in Mormon Temples. And never seen very much display or Christian reference. I am not against Mormon's in any way. But honestly am unsure if they are a Christian organization or merely a cult or business as some here suggest. And I have no prejudice against them, let many many in my home to speak. Have Mormon friends as well. But would never ask them these questions so as not to hurt them. Even if it turns out they are not Christian it would not matter I would still accept them. They have never harmed me. Thanks

JJ Galt Wrote:
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> I have seldom if ever had a missionary display or
> pull out a Bible and read or quote from it

My impression was that many Mormons don't know much about the Bible, even though it's in their collection of four spiritual books (the mishies' "quad").

When I used Bible scriptures (KVJ version) in a talk I gave in sacrament meeting once, that was apparently a rarity, according to the missionaries I knew. In fact, they don't have regular main talks by a senior member, such as the bishop, where they hear scriptures quoted and expounded upon.

The focus is on Joseph Smith and the First Vision and the Mormon milestones like getting baptized and going to the temple. Many missionaries and members will also say that all your questions will be answered after baptism but I found out they don't mean this in a literal way. It's not a question of them imparting their knowledge to you but rather seems to be an individual endeavour where you either find out about Mormon doctrine on your own or gain it by a mysterious process, osmosis maybe.

> I have even
> been invited and attended church events in Mormon
> Temples.

Really? I thought nobody was allowed into temples unless they were a baptized Mormon, with a valid "temple recommend" meaning you've paid your tithing and so have the bishop's permission to be there.

> And never seen very much display or
> Christian reference.

This was my experience during my three years there.

> But honestly am unsure if they are a
> Christian organization

According to mainstream Christians, they are not. This is because they don't accept the scriptural interpretations of the Bible that Christians teach.

>or merely a cult or
> business as some here suggest.

I know 'cult' is a loaded word. Nobody wants to think they're in a cult, especially if they regard themselves as being Christian. As an aside, the early Mormon leaders clearly stated that they were decidedly not Christian. That stance has softened through the years.

It could be useful, if you have interest in determining this, for you to read more about their beliefs and practices. That might make it easier for you to come to your own conclusions about it. Mormons will say that opinions of ex-members are invalid as they are just disgruntled about the church or have "sinned" so want to present the church in a negative light. Some people can walk away from Mormonism and leave it at that. Others look for information and support and need time to process their experiences, perhaps even with the help of therapists. Our experiences differ as do the measures we take to deal with them. It can be especially challenging for people who were born into Mormon families to navigate through leaving and coming to terms with any negative ways that Mormonism has affected them, especially as they were growing up and making decisions that impacted their lives in major ways (such as education and marriage).

It seems like a good idea to look for answers from neutral or non-Mormon sources. Religion can easily come between friends. I've experienced that several times myself and it's unfortunate if it breaks up friendships.

You're very welcome to stick around and keep on reading. Maybe check out other parts of this board (such as the bio board - life stories from ex-Mormons or the many posts in the archives).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2020 05:50PM by Nightingale.

I am a gentile and was inside a Mormon Temple once for the Baptism of a granddaughter and all that entailed.

Are Mormons Christian?

Clear answer: yes and no.

See my explanation at http://packham.n4m.org/lds-xian.htm

It's the old bugaboo about DEFINING YOUR TERMS

Amazing how much time and money is invested in fairy tales.

The church of Santa Claus arguing with the church of the Easter Bunny.

Ha Ha Ha Ha....Good one. “A man with outward courage dares to die: a man with inner courage dares to live.” ― Lao Tzu

They don't need it to protect them.

They not afraid of getting shot down.

It's a book they don't know.

Mormonism wants (NEEDS) it that way.

P.S. I like 'The Seldom Scene' (band)

They are Christian. They just aren’t a traditional, mainstream Christian church.

Traditional Christian churches believe scripture and prophets ended 2000 years ago and solely rely on the Bible as the basis for their beliefs and religion.

Mormons claim the original church was “restored” by a god and appointed Joseph Smith a prophet in these latter days to accomplish this and called 12 apostles to lead this church. As prophets and apostles, they believe they receive revelation for mankind and produce additional scripture or “word of God.” So they believe in the Bible as scripture in addition to the Book of Mormon and other scripture.

Missionaries do have the Bible but they traditionally carry the Book of Mormon around when knocking on doors because they are trying to introduce this new scripture to people and hand them out when they can. Usually we had the Bible in our backpacks (I was one).

Many evangelical Christians make the claim they aren’t Christian but that’s just because they have doctrines or variant beliefs they don’t agree with. Kind of like Sunni Muslims claiming Shia Muslims are “true Muslims” because they don’t think they are practicing the religion correctly, etc.

Well Rusty is a goin' all Jesus on you now so take a deep breath.

In the meantime. The missionaries. Everybody already believes the Bible so why beat a dead horse? They want you to believe in the BoM. That is the point. Why waste time with that Bible?

And, the missionaries have enough on their plate explaining Book of Mormon ridiculousness with having to do the same with the Bibl and all the contradictory, nasty, rarely nice bits of the bible.
God always killing everybody and making them suffer even when they didn't do nothing but kiss His Mighty ass, like Job. Staffs turning into snakes and plagues of Frogs and killing all the firstborns just cuz. Heck, with most everybody already believing all that you wouldn't think it would be such a stretch to take on the BoM too, now would you?!?!

Next time the mishies come they will probably have a picture of that statue of Jesus to show you as proof they are Christians. Ask them why Jesus nipple shows. They won't know what to say.

When I was active LDS I probably knew the Bible better than most people in any church. If I was going to discuss religion online I need to be prepared.

When I was carry a Bible with me walking across a university campus, a gardener interrupts me to ask if I am carrying a Bible. Yes, I was. Any time we crossed paths he wanted to ask me about Scripture. He said I was the only person he knew who could finish his thoughts.

I met my gardener friend while grocery shopping with my son. My son says, "That guy is as weird as you, Dad."

The Bible? I don't know that we still teach from that.

They also don't tote Mark Twain's Life on the Mississippi (which is widely sold, and read [and enjoyed], more influential, and a greater book altogether), or Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance [Robert Persig] - which would do them MUCH more good - or even an infinitely timely, influential, interesting & instrumental book like Henry David Thoreau's Civil Disobediance.

They don't carry these things because they don't know them, aren't interested in Learning, (experiencing) LIFE, or even in spontaneous, natural, normal conversation, unless it leads back to them (talking about LDSain'tHOOD).

The (holy) Bible is TOO DEEP for most LDS.

They prefer shallower books (greater fiction?!) like the bomb (book of moronic bs)!

Some prefer "LEARNING" the same thing, over and over again. It keeps one from thinking, feeling, expressing...

Mormons WANT IT simple...

So they MAKE IT complex-

I've read many versions of the Bible, book of Mormon, doctrine and covenants, and Pearl of great Price thoroughly more than once. I've also studied Satanism, Wicca/pagan/witchcraft, Buddhism, and Taoism. My conclusion is Jesus Christ, Jehovah, Yahweh are all Satan. God and Satan are referred to as the morning star and both tell David to number Israel in all the bibles. I'm just sticking with non religious good angels with which I've seen better results. I also was told Christian doctrine is high school and Mormon doctrine is college. It's all pathetic.

Sungoddess Wrote:
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> I also was told Christian
> doctrine is high school and Mormon doctrine is
> college.

I would quibble with this and say it's the other way 'round. In my experience, Christians are more learned in both their scriptures and beliefs. For one thing, both areas are covered in sermons delivered in church meetings by people schooled in Christian beliefs and tradition. In Mormon sacrament meetings (their main Sunday meeting) there is no full time clergy who teach Mormon beliefs. Doctrine is not taught or discussed in most of their meetings, as far as I observed while I was there. Maybe some was covered in the separate priesthood and ladies' relief society meetings after the sacrament meeting (the latter is the more public of their Sunday meetings) or maybe not.

Coming from a Christian background I kept waiting for a doctrinally-based sermon in SM but never heard one. Most of the speakers are people going out on missions or returning from same or people giving their testimony, which is a feelings-based presentation, not a doctrinal exposition.

In fact, I kept asking where do people learn doctrine. I guess for Mormons it's at home because it wasn't in church, as far as I observed. Maybe Mormons know their basic doctrine about Joseph Smith and his "first vision" and how the Book of Mormon came to be. Perhaps if they are exposed to it throughout all their growing up years they will get to know the foundation of Mormonism. But I didn't notice they teach it much on their missions or prior to baptizing people. Rather, they encourage a quick baptism and not much in the way of follow up questions. I don't think that many converts learn about Mormonism the way BICs have experienced it and know it.

I admit I could be prejudiced in thinking that a Christian knows more doctrine from the Bible and that Christian ministers are more learned than Mormon leaders. Sorry - I don't mean any offence by my comparison. But I found Christian church meetings more interesting in that I always learned something and more fulfilling in that values I strongly identified with were mentioned, discussed, encouraged and displayed. In Christian churches I looked forward to the main Sunday talks by ministers who discussed a biblical principle and its application. In Mormon meetings I was always left saying is that it? Maybe I would have learned something in Relief Society (the women's meeting on Sundays after the main gathering in the chapel). However, that wasn't possible as I was "called" to be a teacher in Primary right after my baptism. Teacher? Called to teach Mormonism? When I had just been baptized and didn't know anything? "You will learn by doing it" the missionaries told me. How can I do it if I don't know anything, I fretted. And so on in an endless circle.

They promise you will learn after your baptism. Then they make you the teacher. And promise that by teaching you will learn. And so on. It was all the wrong way 'round as far as I was concerned. I could never relax.

And I didn't learn much. Not from their scriptures and doctrines anyway.

More of my experience on exmormon.org is under the user name midnightseahorse. I had to change my user name to Sungoddess for some reason. Anyway, like I said, I just read all the books over and over and just couldn't bring myself to believe in a violent God. I asked a lot of questions and got kicked out of all the churches. I was treated like crap from everyone because I didn't fit in. I say all churches that believe in a violent God and don't love and accept you as you are are demonic. I'm sorry if that's harsh, but that's the way I see it.

I am not sure about missionaries, but I have seen (from afar) that many members are now using a digital version of scriptures. A tablet is much easier to carry than a quad.