So, the latest Mormon sponsored advert trolling my FB feed tells me that missionaries are eager to speak to me online, and that “profound questions” are their “specialty”. (eye roll)

Oh, and for good measure the smiley guy in the photo is sporting a decidedly nonTBM hair style.

I would give them my profound answers.

Why, if two wrongs don't make a right, do two negatives make a positive in mathematics?

Does thought require language?

-1 + -1 = -2

So mathematically, two wrongs make two wrongs.

So what is zero raised to the zero power ?

Next thing I know, you have pulled out the quadratic equation!

On my handy dandy HP15C calculator, zero raised to the zero power is undefined and the response on the calculator is ERROR. Any other number (no matter how small; I tried with 1E-12) raised to the zero power is always 1.

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
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> So what is zero raised to the zero power ?

a0aX24 to the 45th power

Ah yes, but then we enter BoJ territory, in which 1X1 does not necessarily mean 1.

To repeat one of his arguments, in the realm of imaginary numbers, 1X1 = -1. So put that in your pipe and have a nice toke.

My advanced algebra and calculus courses with a focus on electronic engineering didn't include any discussion of "BoJ". I could possibly know the concept by another name. But I can't see how 1 x 1 = -1 in any field of mathematics that I am familiar with. I am curious. You may be correct. Please send documentation. What does "BoJ" stand for? Which side or sides of the equasion contains imaginary number components? Can you plot the expression for us?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2020 03:13PM by azsteve.

Ah, here it is. I'm not sure why I missed it. I mean, my sole purpose on RfM is to watch for your latest distillations of genius.


--------------
You write:

> I can't see how 1 x 1
> = -1 in any field of mathematics that I am
> familiar with.

Well that's the end of it, isn't it. azsteve doesn't understand it, so it doesn't exist!

We've seen this with you before, of course. You don't see racism, therefore it doesn't exist. You disagree with the laws on personal privacy, so you weren't a criminal when you followed an ex-girlfriend around and banged on her window to interrupt her sex with a different man. If your conception of reality and reality itself differ, it is the former that prevails.


---------------
> Which side or sides of the equasion contains
> imaginary number components? Can you plot the
> expression for us?

It's "equation." But putting that aside, the cool thing about equations is that the i can show up on either or both sides of the equal sign. That's why it's called an equation!


--------------
> Perhaps your result is partially in the imaginary domain. I am
> not making that term up to be precious... just can't see a
> connection tonthe real world.

Here again you indicate the superficiality of your understanding. Imaginary/complex numbers and Euler's work more generally underpins much of what any engineer does. That you don't know that does not render it false: it merely indicates the limits of your own education.

Some people try to understand complex systems, say complex numbers, while others merely ask "what is there here I can use to make some money?" The former people are fascinating, the latter tedious.

I heard my name being used in vain here. Let's get this two-negatives thing right.

If you took algebra II in HS, you should have some vague recollection of complex numbers, consisting of a real number added to an imaginary number, that being a real number with the letter i attached to it. "i" represents the square root of minus one, a value which ought not to exist, except for the fact that a whole bunch of really important mathematics depends deeply on its existence. Everything that broadcasts electrical signals through the air can only be understood and manipulated because of complex math.

Not only that, but complex analysis gives rise to an equation that Richard Feynman as a 14 year old described as "THE MOST REMARKABLE FORMULA IN MATH" (personal notebook, dated April 1933, caps in original), e ^ iπ = -1. It is pretty remarkable, since it combines nearly all of the essential constants in mathematics into a very concise, simple formula. With a little rearranging, it is possible to get in two more fundamental constants, at the cost of losing the minus one: e ^ iπ + 1 = 0.

But back to two negatives makes a positive. First a quick refresher on the complex plane. Real numbers are along the X axis, positive numbers (customarily) to the right of the origin and negative numbers to the left.

Pure imaginary numbers are on the Y axis, positive imaginaries up, negative imaginaries down. Everywhere else on the complex plane are complex numbers, that is, numbers that have both a real and imaginary component. Most of the math that most of y'all have ever dealt with was totally along the X axis, but all the rest of the complex plane was always lurking out there.

So here is the Grand Key, as JS might say. If you multiply any complex number times i, it simply rotates the number by 90º counterclockwise in the complex plane.

Example: (3 + 5i) * i = 3i + 5i^2 = -5 + 3i. All you need to remember is to always replace i squared (that is, i^2) by -1. Remember, i is the square root of minus 1, so if you square it, the result is -1. Plot those two number on graph paper, remembering the first term is on the X axis and the i term is on the Y axis. They are 90º apart, but the exact same distance from the origin. Amazing!!

That 90º rotation is true for all complex numbers, but as a special case, it is true for real numbers on the X axis. So let's take a negative real number, on the left side of the X axis. If you multiply it by i, it rotates 90º to the negative i axis. multiply it by i again and it rotates an additional 90º to the positive X axis.

So, the reason that multiplying a negative number by -1 converts it to a positive number is that multiplying by i*i is a 180º rotation in the complex plane. Multiplying a positive number on the positive X axis by -1 is also a 180º rotation, which converts the positive number to a negative number.

Now, aren't you sorry you brought it up? :)

Actually, Leonhard Euler, arguably the greatest mathematician who ever lived, and certainly among the greatest, wrote an algebra book in the mid-1700s, where he botched the explanation of why two negatives make a positive. Negative numbers happen to be fairly slippery beasts.

We didn't adopt the tradition of signifying negative numbers by simply slapping a minus sign in front of them until around 1750. Prior to that they were written in parentheses, or in red ink. The reason corporate reports still to this day tend to write negative numbers that way is that corporate reports have been around longer than the tradition of a minus sign to designate a negative number. Bet you didn't know that the $-0.47 Happy Meal discount on your receipt was a relatively new mathematical innovation. :)

The Old Babylonians had the equivalent of a unary minus (that's what a minus sign that stands for a negative number rather than subtraction is called) in 1800 BCE. It took about 3500 years for the idea to make it to Europe and the rest of the world.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2020 04:05PM by Brother Of Jerry.

I am of the impression that TBMs don't think much about any math that does not involve that most sacred ofmath symbols, the dollar sign.

Sad but true.

Ten percent is the only math equation needed.

Any time you add or subtract imaginary and real numbers together, there are magnitudes in the real world that can't be derived without some trigonometry. Perhaps your result is partially in the imaginary domain. I am not making that term up to be precious... just can't see a connection tonthe real world.

For example in electronic engineering there is impedance. Impedance is a summing of reactance and resistance. But the summing process requires the use of the pythagorean theorem (a squared plus b squared equals c squared) to derive magnitude. Some additional trig is required if you want to know the actual vector angle. But to keep it simple, if you need to know the impedance of an AC circuit that contains a capacitive or inductive element in addition to resistance, you need to add those values triganomically and not using simple addition or subtraction. In this case, the value of reactance is always expressed as an imaginary number while both resistance and impedance exist in the real world.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2020 09:14AM by azsteve.

Complex numbers are usually presented in high school as real and imaginary coordinates. They can also be represented as an angle and magnitude (distance from the origin). You need trig and the Pythagorean theorem to convert one to the other. EE usually prefers the angle, magnitude representation.

I know complex numbers work well for analyzing LRC circuits, though I never really learned how to do that. I only took one EE course, digital signal processing, because I needed it for a job I had. I felt like I had really jumped into the deep end of the pool in that course, and I worked like a dog. Some of my better students were taking the course, and damned if I was going to let them get a better grade than me. Fear is a good motivator. :)

To use complex numbers in an RCL circuit, the goal is typically to match impedance between a transmission source circuit and the receiving circuit to facilitate a maximum power transfer with the lowest possible power losses. You calculate capacitive reactance using 1/(2 x pi x frequency x capacitance) in farads (the "C" in "RCL"). You calculate inductive reactance using 2 x pi x frequency x inductance in Henrys (the "L" in "RCL"). Then you sum these two using regular addition or subtraction while observing their opposing sign values. The result is an imaginary number that you then add to the resistance (the "R" in "RCL") value of the circuit using the pythagorean theorem. The final result is defined as impedance which is also expressed in ohms. By using appropriately valued components in your circuit design, you can set the value of both the transmitting and receiving circuits to have matched impedances and thus maximum power transfer between them. For example, an old AM radio typically has a wound coil of electrical wire as the antenna because the antenna can't be physically long enough (hundreds of meters) to match the required wavelength of the transmitted signal. So you add inductance to the receiving circuit to create an impedance match.

The fun part is found in arranging your formula which includes expressions of complex numbers found in both series and parallel parts of the circuit (kirchoff's law), to solve for your required component values to give you the target impedance. You just have translate your schematics in to formulas and then to trust your algebra rules, long after you've lost track of what's really going on in the circuit through other means.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2020 02:08AM by azsteve.

Thank you for this, BoJ. I do remember complex numbers from high school although I'm confident we also used them in some college-level courses as well. You'd probably know which ones, though I have forgotten.

It seems that I get an additional cumulative $-0.47 discount every time I buy a Happy Meal. . .

There is nothing positive in maths. It s a zero sum game.

The inverse of the inverse of a positive number is a positive number.

So if bread is positive, I steal it because I'm hungry, and I then eat it. My satiation is positive. There were two negatives; I stole the bread and I ate the stolen bread. It shouldn't result in a positive out come but it did.

Unless stealing bread equals 19 years applied to 24601.

jacob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why, if two wrongs don't make a right, do two
> negatives make a positive in mathematics?
>
> Does thought require language?

How come people injured who have Amnesia don't forget how to speak a language?

Two wrongs do not make a right..but...three rights make a left.

Eighteen year olds answering the profound questions of life. Sounds about right. lol

Well, they know most everything.

This was my first thought too. It reminds me of a scene in that Meet the Mormons [I think] movie, in which some know it all kid is explaining that his future sex life will be better because he’s a virgin. How can he “know” something about something he knows nothing about? It’s both preposterous and pathetic at the same time. All most 18 year olds know about anything profound is what they’ve been told, and the mishies have been pumped full of lies which they’re good at repeating.

If it’s a public forum I’d start asking them those profound questions. It will soon become obvious that this was false advertising. Why did god want Joseph Smith to marry children, but later god agreed that paedophilia is wrong? And so on...

Why did Joe carry magic talismans and now that is witchcraft?

I beg your pardon. I carry a magic talisman. I walk up to my car and it unlocks and turns its lights on. I think that's a pretty good trick. Try that with consecrated oil.

I doubt it’s public, but I’m also sure they immediately shut down anything “anti”. There was a guy here who used to post his dialogs with the online mishies. They were sort of funny, but he was also beating his head against a brick wall.

Both are still standing!

In an astounding turn of events, the poster changed his name and the brick wall developed a fan base.

You can't make this up, even though I keep trying!

You know, I vaguely remember the name change. But, yeah, only vaguely.

FWIW, I changed my moniker a while back too.

I'd say it was a good thing. People need new chances, new opportunities for change.

My answers would lead to their questioning...

Which they would naturally have if they weren't so PUFFED UP with their smugness/ pride/ ego (THINKING THEY KNOW IT ALL) and lack-of-wisdom!

I would stump them like a former forest. I ask simple questions. They retreat to the trees, to freedom, and life's fulfillment: happiness.

Missionaries know nothing, and they show it.

They can't answer one of my simple questions honestly, and they're not even profound, just obvious and not softballs.

#1. How does your conscience allow you to sing the praises of a man who is a known child rapist, no better than Warren Jeffs?

#2. How do you reconcile the fact that Joseph Smith Jr. 'married' his follower's wives, with the law, all of them, including the one he claims he got straight from God and still contained in D&C 132:60-65?

#3. Why were blacks restricted from entering the temple prior to 1978, when you don't need the priesthood to enter a temple, since women have been doing it all along w/o the priesthood?

Obviously the church can no longer exist now that you've made public these issues!

Well done!

Mormons can't answer my questions either. They just tell me the that the lies I discovered about them are also lies. They have zero explanations whatsoever other that me or what I've heard about Mormons is supposedly wrong. However some of my questions have shut missionaries up and then they walk away. Questions like Joseph Smith having many wives, why Mormons don't talk about Heavenly Mother, etc. Even though they can't answer my questions, I'm wrong and just believe. Um no. Just saying so they don't take Heavenly Mother's name in vain is not a very good explanation. It's like saying swear at your dad but not your mom. The rules Mormons have don't make any sense.

Ask the missionaries why Passover is mentioned 71 times in the Bible, but zero times in the Book of Mormon...Passover is sort of a big deal for Jews?

I wonder how you get them to ask you on your FB feed. I'm bored.

I clicked on one of the pictures because I wondered where it would take me, and it popped open the messenger window instead.

Do other churches pay for this sort of placement or advertising? I'm not aware of any.