I already read 'no man knows my history'

Is mormonism: shadow or reality at the top of the list as well? Was thinking of buying this one as my next book.

I really want the real and gritty history. The fable is implanted in my mind from youth but oh well.

I want to get more educated on the subject so i can actually discuss and participate on threads and actually contribute. I don't actually know a lot of real history besides a few books. I know how messy real life is so i imagine all fables are pretty much false and used for mind-control and brainwashing purposes. Keep a persons mind always in fable land and they will be much easier to control even into adulthood. Thanks. So best books for real and accurate mormon history OK....GO.

An Insider's View of Mormon Origins by Grant Palmer.

Ok writing these down for books to order in the future so i really will not forget.

I pimp this out any chance I get: http://www.connellodonovan.com/abom.html

Bro. O'Donovan asked himself, ”What's up with the church and the Gays?"

And so he did the research and wrote his dissertation.

The church pretends this history doesn't exist. So do TBMs. They all go, "NAH NAH NAH! I can't hear you!"

It looks like a great document, but why does it lead with a photo of you?

Sales went through the roof when he switched things around to lead with me in a winter frock!

This is why you are the most interesting man in the world old dog. The dos XX guy.

I didn't know this. Is that really brigham youngs son dressed up like a woman?

Yes, BY had a son who dressed up like a woman.

He was an actor. It was all in the interests of his profession.

It wasn't like he liked it or anything.

Suuuuure

I will let you know when it's finished.

Well i guess that is why you are the great messygoop.

messygoop Wrote:
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> I will let you know when it's finished.

No Need, I'm sure we'll all be able to smell it...

just sayin'

You might be interested in the internet, downloadable and FREE reduced version of the Tanner's Mormonism Shadow of Reality.

It's called "The Changing World of Mormonism," by Jerald and Sandra Tanner.

Link to the pdf: http://www.utlm.org/other/changingworld.pdf

I also read Grant Palmer's book (An Insider's View). It is excellent too.

Alrighty, shorter books are usually better for my attention span although i did get through 2 chapters of a book last night which is impressive for me. Very impressive.

I am pretty old school though and still prefer paperback. My eyes get exhausted when reading from screens.

Absolutely HUGE thumbs up for those two Tanners'books. I feel like Mormonism-Shadow or Reality should be essential reading for any ex-Mormon or person wanting to know the truth about Mormonism.

It's THE ultimate expose of Mormonism. It contains almost everything you wanted to know might be the historical issues and problems in the history. In addition, it's mostly citations so there's less fluff and opinions.

Many other books out there are great too but this one is sort of the go to in my opinion and the rest are good supplements. You'll most likely find most everything in this book.

I see. That is what i am looking for.

D. Michael Quinn's books are good.

The annotated version of "A history of Joseph Smith by his Mother." is also good. Who betted to rat you out than your mother? Make sure it is the annotated version.

Oooooh this one sounds really good. Definitely going to check this one out.

Mormonism didn't really get started until they came to Utah, It's BY that made this into a modern culture. So I would say 'Tell it all' by Fanny Stenhouse 1877 is a good read and accurate.

"Mormonism unveiled" by John D. Lee is also informative, especially if your interested in S. Utah which has a whole unique messy history all of it's own.

I read the book by john d. Lee's grand daughter and thought it was pretty good and really informative. Apparently john d. Lee was one of the one's that was sacrificed like a lamb for the mountain meadows incident if i remember right.

Anything by Sam Taylor is good. He is a good historian and a good writer.

I recommend Nightfall at Nauvoo.

The nauvoo period is intriguing to me i have to say. Would like to know more about that period for sure.

Actually, it would help if you specified which period of Mormon History you are most interested in.

One thing about Mormon History -- it sure has spawned a LOT of books.

Just let us know what in particular you would like to know more about.

Joseph smith period and brigham young period.

"Reminiscences of Early Utah" by Robert Baskin.
Out of print but reproduced by Signature Books.

Baskin was an attorney who fought vigorously against the Mormon monopoly and misuse of the courts in Utah. He worked to strengthen and refine the laws against polygamy which eventually resulted in the Manifesto. He also assisted in the prosecution of John D. Lee for the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Fascinating account of the history of Utah, written contemporarily.

Check out this one about the hokey Book of Abraham JS tried to pull off. It gives a good view of how JS made up stuff as he went along:

In the first two chapters of By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus, former Mormon and Brigham Young University graduate Charles M. Larson, recounts the circumstances under which Joseph Smith acquired the two Egyptian scrolls, and his claim to have identified one of them as an account by the Biblical patriarch
Abraham.

This book is probably available free online somewhere. It's not long. Like the recommendation of books by the Tanners, it disappoints because it has a Christian bent (if they are going to scrutinize Mormonism and ignore the same issues with their own religion they don't come across as scholarly). That said, the information they provide is very revealing about Mormon claims.

The Book of Abraham and the mummy/papyrus fiasco is one of the more laughable things JS tried to pull off. Mormons don't bring up this topic very often, even though it was part of the Pearl of Great Price, a standard work of the church.



Another revealing read is The Mormon Murders by Steven Naifeh. Copied from Amazon:
Mark Hofmann is an American counterfeiter, forger, and convicted murderer. Widely regarded as one of the most accomplished forgers in history, Hofmann is especially noted for his creation of documents related to the history of the Latter Day Saint movement. When his schemes began to unravel, he constructed bombs to murder two people in Salt Lake City, Utah.

What this book reveals is how uninspired the LDS leadership is, contrary to what they claim. They were royally duped. They spent tons buying forgeries to make sure they controlled the church history narrative. The forgeries included some of the nonsense JS was up to and they wanted to buy anything historical that might cause people to question. The Mormon prophet at the time ended up settling out of court rather than testing which was also revealing.



Books about JS using the religion to get women are important too. Try In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton. Anyone who can't see what the polygamy thing was really about is naïve to say the least.

The sad thing is ultimately Mormons don't care about the history. They don't care about all the glaring issues any more than your average Catholic cares about the nonsense origins of their Church. They just roll with it and pick and choose their version of what they care about and believe just like everyone else.

Blood of the Prophets, Will Bagley. Accurate and authoritative.

Adam71783 Wrote:
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> Is mormonism: shadow or reality at the top of the list as well?

Yes, yes, yes. It is all scans of original documents.

Sure, a trusted historian can summarise more information in less space. But for me, as a then-TBM, seeing the original documents was life changing.

I see. This is why i put this one on my next to read. I'm sure the documentation is legit.

Yes, the Tanner's documentation will be impeccable.

And when they are wrong (rarely) they say they are wrong.

They were the first to call out Mark Hoffman's salamander letter as not being legit.

It was HYSTERICAL. When professional document examiners said "this shows all the signs of being the real thing," Gerald Tanner, who didn't pretend to be an expert on anything said, "I don't believe Martin Harris wrote this letter, because he just didn't talk that way."

The Tanners are going for the facts, not necessarily for readability or entertainment. They are "just the facts" kind of people. You can count on them for the truth, but they are not the most entertaining of writers. They are not trying to be entertaining or engaging.

If you are looking for something to engage your attention, and make you want to keep turning pages, check out reviews on Amazon for an idea of what you are getting yourself into. You can't beat "In Sacred Loneliness." There are biographies out there of Emma Smith and Sidney Rigdon that I found extremely readable.

In fact, you are in for what is sometimes called "An Embarrassment of Riches."

Some time ago, a doctor wrote a book explaining JS's personality as a traumatic result of his childhood leg surgery. While I didn't buy his hypothesis it did shed some light on the world of early Mormonism.

Happy reading!

I think i do need something with solid facts to cut through the fantasy like a knife so to speak. Entertainment doesn't matter as much really. But that sacred loneliness book does sound intrigueing.

No Man Knows My History, Fawn M. Brodie's biography of Joseph Smith Jr. trying to puzzle out the real facts. Well written and researched.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2020 04:57PM by Soft Machine.

This is the only book about real history that i have read but i should read again.

Under the Banner of Heaven profiles the real present-day nutcases that inhabit Mormonism and its offshoot polygamous branches.

The Bundys will probably deserve their own book at some point, but that saga is still a work in progress.

I see. Is ted bundy in the book?

I may get this one because it is cheaper than the polygamy books unfortanutely. In sacred loneliness is kind of pricey.

You can go to the library and get the book that way -- that is when the libraries open again.

If your local library does not have the book you want, ask for an Interlibrary Loan form, and they will get the book from another library so you can check it out.

ILL is a great service that few people know about.

Lois

I tried the library route for these type of books. Believe me they do not have them. And i tried the loan thing with the library and was denied because no other library had robert lifton's book of thought reform and brainwashing in china which the cults of today emulate in my opinion. My assumption is that since i live in cult central idaho there are none of these books here.

Keep trying. The books that have been recommended so far are not hard to find and I'll bet you can get them on IL even in Idaho.

In the meantime, there is a website called (something to the effect of) "On this day in Mormon History.

You can look up whatever day it is and see what off-beat, little known or embarrassing nugget of Mormon History happened on that day.

Good to do when you are not in the mood for slugging through a whole book.

But really, really ILL works. Give it another try.

You don't have to be rich to be well read.

If we were neighbors, I would loan you my books. I have SCADS. Too many. Old ones, new ones, forgotten ones, ones that will NEVER be forgotten.

There is a thread here on addictions. Mormon History is one of my addictions.

ENOUGH! I get it. I get it.

But there is always more. So I buy them. So I have too many of them.

In sacred Loneliness is kinda expensive, but Nauvoo polygamy isn't, and they kinda talk about the same thing.

After JS died BY and HCK kinda divvied up his many widows and added them to their temporal harem.

Always that High Weirdness factor in Mormon History.

Very high weirdness. I kind of got too focused on how cults work and how they brainwash people for a while there so i get the addiction to it. To change a human beings entire original identity and brainwash them and indoctrinate them and thought reform them and then mind control them for their rest of their lives into a cult persona is a fascinating subject for me because i was born into it and lived it while they tried all the methods in the book on me since birth to MAKE me believe something that they wanted me to believe. They healing and deprogramming process is fascinating and hard to describe as well.

Libraries here are still closed anyways. I just checked.

'Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet (A Biography)' by Dan Vogel....very detailed, well-researched.

Are you wanting to know what book best refutes mormonism ?

I think so like real historical facts. I don't know all the facts of this neverending rabbit hole.

"One Nation Under Gods" ~ by Richard Abanes is actually what brought ziller to RfM ~

https://www.amazon.com/One-Nation-Under-Gods-History/dp/B015X4W8ES

Woh if ziller is recommending a book i have to get it. No question about it.

Brb looking at amazon link.

I just ordered the book on ebay for really cheap. If ziller is recommending the book that brought him to rfm then this is big. Much respect ziller.

Refiners Fire, John Brooke

"Nauvoo Polygamy - but we called it Celestial Marriage", by George D Smith

"In Sacred Loneliness - the wives of Joseph Smith", by Todd Compton

"Tell It All", by Fanny Stenhouse

Ok i think i really need to read these. I was told joseph had only one wife growing up in the religion so this is important. I think they did their best to make joseph look like this pure soul to people.

This website has biographies of Joseph Smith's wives and the circumstances under which he became involved with each of them.

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/

Michael Quinn's books pretty much give you all the source material in actual church sources that the church uses.

The fraud is too baked in to mormon church to ever get it out.
So why not just use church sources. Then read this site and mormon think and exmormon reddit.

Common sense - a form of revelation - will tell you it is all fake. Pray to know that what you are reading from all these sources is true and if God wants you to stop this investigation to be very specific about it or else he is giving his approval to what you are learning.

It is the same nonsense the mormons try to spring on faith-based participants in the discussions. Just do it the same way.
You will be knowledgeable and out of the mormon con in no time.

Well margaret singer who is a cult expert says one of the ways to counter cult programming is to educate yourself. So it takes more than just counseling to counter cult indoctrination. So i am trying to get as much correct information about the cult as i can to counter the thought reform or brainwashing i went through so to speak. Not a lot of counselors are experienced in healing the cult indoctrination experienced in childhood unfortunately. Its complex to heal from systematic thought reform which most counselors do not know.

Well said Adam.

Knowledge is power but Healing is needed too.

Part of leaving mormonism for good means delicately removing the barbed fish hooks they have on your personal views of good and evil, acceptance and kindness. This is mainly why people go back to church is they have been taught as Lucifer said - it is the only way - giving the apple to Eve.

It also means forgiving yourself for falling for such a blatant fraud. It can and indeed should be done.

This is true mormon recovery - a healthy, happy life independent of perverted mormon gospel teachings.

Removing delicately the barbed fish hooks is an excellent way to put it. There is no fast tracking it or you will get cut by a barb.

That one should be a good one as well.

Seemed just like yesterday to me.

I was born in 1953 and raised in an LDS world, South Ogden, UT. But I started to question as early as age 7. And then, at age 14, I got a hold of a book that my grandpa owned. No Man Knows My History, by Fawn Brodie. (I can honestly say that the title only seems to apply to True Believing Mormons). I read it straight through. “O, what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive.”

And that was the end of that! No more Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and good ole boy Joe Smith for me! Not ever in a million years.

I would recommend that book as a start, since it’s a well researched history and biography of the founder.