Reply to macromoney...

"When folks in power get power they are reluctant to let people have their freedom again. This could be the driving force of minimum basic income, which maybe coming too, or even a NHS system.

I believe in Science not scientists. I don't want to see an intellectual upper class dictating what I can and can't do. Some how that same special class never seem to follow their own rules."


Ding.Ding.Ding...we have a winner. Some people get it...not just on 1 side of the aisle either. Some people more open minded(progressive-thinking...) are starting to think this too..

I think we’re getting a lesson in why we have a separation of powers and checks and balances. If you let philosopher kings rule, they will. In fact the tech billionaires have given us a taste of that. You can have free shipping but your kids will have to pee in a bottle.

And don't forget about my god given right to get a haircut during a pandemic.

...or your God-given right to go sit shoulder-to-shoulder with a couple hundred other people to praise God for giving you the right to get a haircut.

I live in an area with a lot of the "intellectual upper class" -- professionals and the wealthy. They are following the rules because they want to survive the pandemic. And they have a good level of education and understand why the rules are in place.

How do you think our parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents got though WWII? That was several years of the government curtailing citizen's freedoms so the country could survive intact.

As for nationalized health care, if this pandemic can't convince people that is a good idea, I don't know what will.

"I live in an area with a lot of the "intellectual upper class" -- professionals and the wealthy. They are following the rules because they want to survive the pandemic"

Just curious...Do you see the irony in your statement?

>>I don't want to see an intellectual upper class dictating what I can and can't do. Some how that same special class never seem to follow their own rules."

I responded to that direct quote, which stated that the upper class doesn't want to follow "their own rules." They do want to follow the rules. They are following the rules from what I can observe. And last I checked, the people making the rules were elected in free elections.

This pandemic has convinced me the opposite is true. Free markets are the answer.

There is no such thing as "free markets".

"Too many students want lives of endless recess and pep rallies!"
--Brock Zoller, Rancho High Track Team, 1960-1962, died February 04, 1966, Vietnam

That actually is very touching. And touches on how I feel right now.


If this link posts, I think it says so much. Because there are many in this country that are using the pandemic to sell good, or to buy votes. I won't expand because I can get really riled up right now.


https://youtu.be/Yhv1vX7Jeng

"All God's children deserve to live their dreams! Only the Devil and his servants stand in our way. If my brother opposes me, I will rebuke him and if he still opposes me I will send him to Hell. I will always serve the Greater Good, with which I am always in tune!"
--Celpheish McBasturd, Lord of the Dreams

I see some folks haven't abandoned Packer's hatred of "so-called intellectuals."

The regulations in place are an attempt at preventing a worst case scenario against COVID-19. If we had more testing available to the public and dedicated more research to a vaccine, I'd be in favor of lightening up on the restriction when it was safe. But we can't do that, thanks to politicians, NWGs, and folks on the internet screaming, "Waaah! We want the rules gone nooooow!"

John Snow, in the mid-1800s, plotted cholera cases and determined that a particular well was the source before germ was discovered let alone accepted.

He publicized his discovery but people continued to use the well. (Perhaps they thought it was their right.) Then Snow removed the pump handle. Who the hell did he think he was.

Snow's epidemiological theories were not accepted in his lifetime.

Moral of John Snow's story: trust the folks who study diseases, even if it's inconvenient.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

I’ve altered this saying slightly, based on being alive a long time:

“The more things change, the more they stay insane!”

Lol

That version might be more accurate, elderolddog.

Did you ever wonder why everyone asked the professor about things and not the millionaire on Gilligan's Island?

Succinct

I should have credited some meme on Twitter for that thought.

Good one!

Excellent indeed.

But it won't influence the anti-intellectuals on the board. They are beyond reason; they have rediscovered the virtues of faith that they purport to have abandoned when they left Mormonism.

Ignorance is the opium of the people. Long life stupidity.

I am still waiting for that "Intellectual" on the "Profound Questions" thread to tell this Engineer how 1x1=-1 using some kind of math called BoJ. In classic style, I asked for her sources and haven't heard back from her there since. Point made about the abuses caused by junk science.

Brother of Jerry and I started a discussion there. I am not sure that our resident mathmatics expert on that thread (and most other topics on most other threads for that matter) can comprehend what is being discussed there. Heaven help this world if we put these kinds of intellectuals in charge.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2020 09:38AM by azsteve.

This from the person who always takes umbrage when I challenge his thinking.

It doesn't take an expert to know the situations in which 1X1=-1. Go back and look it up: you know, the square root of -1 and i^2. There was also lots of cool material in that class on graphing with i.

Why don't you remember that section in your algebra class? Were you out in the parking lost with macaRomney laughing about the quadratic equation or at the bishop's office complaining about ex-girlfriends?



ETA: Here's BoJ explaining exactly what I just said as well as providing other examples.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2308330,2309488#msg-2309488

Will you accept that as a source? It must be more reasonable to you, as someone who amusingly thinks his intellect is comparable to BoJ's. Or is that there is an inherent credibility in him because he, like you, is a white male?

But what is astounding, again, is that you shouldn't need this reference since his post was offered as a direct and immediate response to a question from you. Did you forget that conversation? Fail to understand it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2020 01:42PM by Lot's Wife.

There is a big difference between challenging someone's thinking and ridiculing them personally. A little personal scruteny is appropriate when someone babbles off bonafied jibberish, trying to show their intelligence by using what to them are just big words and expressions that they do not understand, and hoping no one present will catch on. I think I'll have the last laugh on this one LW and I hope the mods leave this post in-tact because there is a valuable lesson to be learned here about dysfunction more than about the math. Anyone here who really does understand and value the 'science' that you praise in theory and the junk science that you think is real and if they really do understand higher level math, will read the jibberish you vouch for and the things you repeat as real, and they will have a good laugh. Get your encyclopedia out and rigorously scrutinize my descriptions and examples of mixing real and imaginary numbers in the real world and then come back here again and tell everyone what I got wrong there about the theory and example I used to illustrate the concept. Let's debate those issues if you're capable. There is a big difference between copying a few characters down (as you did) to express the definition of an imaginary number in just a few characters, and providing an equasion to prove an unsound expression in the real world such as 1x1=-1. Imaginary numbers will never get you there using a true expression. There is no real science in YOUR words, only personal insult. You also brought up racism as a possible reason why others don't agree with you and the White race itself to show why you (LW) are the outsider. By doing that, you make yourself the outsider because of your race. Real science is not racist either, and neither is everyone who you call a racist. I call your bluff. Let's get in to some hard mathematical discussion instead of insult and innuendo. Let's use real life examples and define the nuances involved as they apply to those examples. If I get in over my head, I'll yield and bow out with dignity. But I am on rock solid ground now and all you've got is babble and claims of racism.... classic! Even in an absolutely inflexible and provable science such as mathmatics, it comes down to racism. When we leave a cult we're supposed to give up all of that dysfunction.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2020 12:07AM by azsteve.

BoJ was a math prof. Just saying.

That first sentence is a call for introspection. You may be in for a long wait. But it could happen.

"Yeah, me too!" Is that all you have to offer?

Well, I guess my response to this was deemed unacceptable. But response there was.

You know my feelings about you, azsteve.

thanks azsteve, I don't even read lots wife, she just picks on people and half remembers her facts.

Guy, Lot's Wife remembers all her facts. You would know if you read her posts.

Also, she's not picking on you; she just doesn't suffer fools.

To understand Lot’s Wife, look up Alan Watts’ explanation of “prickles and goo”. She just doesn’t do goo. No goo, no woo, just the facts ma’am.

The paradox of Mormonism is really something to work out. What does it really mean when something so completely bonkers has real functionality? Most exmos would rather wash their hands of the whole thing. I’ve seen things, man. Things. What, am I supposed to forget? These are the breadcrumbs that lead to an understanding of reality. I share my insights here because when it comes to casting pearls, you’ll never find a better bunch of swine.

Swine comment: Charming

"But it won't influence the anti-intellectuals on the board. They are beyond reason; they have rediscovered the virtues of faith that they purport to have abandoned when they left Mormonism.

Ignorance is the opium of the people. Long life stupidity."


The term "anti-intellectual" reminds me of the term "anti-Mormon". If you don't completely agree with everything the groupies here promote, you are "anti".

Pretty much a cult mentality.

Apparently the professors from Stanford and Yale, etc, and the world-renowned epidemiologists I've quoted that disagree with our shutdowns, are not intellectuals.

The true religion here is statism - our government is infallible, and will save us from all danger, and will provide all our needs.

Do not question.

I have no idea what you're yammering on about, but I think the jury is still out on the Corona Virus response model that works best, because the 2nd Wave is coming next fall/winter, if pandemic history is any indication and so far, we have no evidence that we have any kind of an effective vaccine or even antibody we can administer to achieve 'herd immunity'.
IOW, Covid 19 survivors who have tested positive for Covid 19 antibodies have been reinfected with Covid 19, so not even Sweden has the right approach, if those with antibodies are being reinfected and they'll end up losing just as many people as the US in the 2nd Wave.

The fact that people can get reinfected is very worrisome.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The fact that people can get reinfected is very
> worrisome.

Is this now an established fact?

I did recently see an article about a US war ship experiencing this problem, but it was published in Politico who get a lot of things wrong (often on purpose, alas).

If it indeed is a fact, then yes, it is very worrisome.

I don't believe it is "established fact." But reports of reinfection are mounting to the point where experts have grown alarmed. There's a good chance immunity will be limited in degree, in temporal duration, or both.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/16/asia/zhong-nanshan-coronavirus-intl-hnk/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/16/politics/uss-theodore-roosevelt-sailors-coronavirus/index.html

https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/04/27/1000569/how-long-are-people-immune-to-covid-19/

Right. I’ve been watching this storyline grow from the first report. The recent US warship story is much closer to home.

I find the second and third articles particularly helpful. The second is the view of a doctor who is probably China's best expert on the disease; it is the convergence of his fears with the experience on the Roosevelt and elsewhere that gives me pause.

The third article, from MIT, is a description of how corona viruses work and how they respond to vaccines. It makes clear the fact that there may not be a silver bullet.

So it may end up like a flu vaccine where we have to get it every year.

The MIT article mentioned the experience of colds and schools. As a teacher, I can tell you that there are either super bugs or we get colds back to back. There was one year where I was sick for about eight weeks with a clear arc from beginning to end. My physician thought it was two colds back-to-back, but then why the arc? This is not unusual for teachers, but no one ever listens to us.

Teachers do tend to build up tremendous immunity. First year teachers get sick constantly, but after that, it will be just a bad year here and there.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So it may end up like a flu vaccine where we have
> to get it every year.
>
> The MIT article mentioned the experience of colds
> and schools. As a teacher, I can tell you that
> there are either super bugs or we get colds back
> to back. There was one year where I was sick for
> about eight weeks with a clear arc from beginning
> to end. My physician thought it was two colds
> back-to-back, but then why the arc? This is not
> unusual for teachers, but no one ever listens to
> us.
>
> Teachers do tend to build up tremendous immunity.
> First year teachers get sick constantly, but after
> that, it will be just a bad year here and there.

So do pediatricians.
Our kids pediatrician said, "Why do you think I don't get sick all the time seeing sick kids all day long?"
I said, "Un, because you're exposed to their germs all day long and pretty soon, your're immune to everything?"
He said, "Exactly."
He rarely wore a mask back then.
I'm sure it's different now, but I've been in the ER twice in the past 6 months and it's a frigging nightmare wihtout the Coronavirus. I practically have PTSD from it and I was only there for 4 days total. I can't imagine what Nurses and Dr's and staff have to go through on a daily basis at hospitals in the war zones, like NYC.
But the thing is, they're tough as hell if they survive it.
Being exposed to a lot of viruses isn't necessarily a bad thing. There are lots of good viruses, phages, which actually outnumger all the other life forms put together and are the worlds most efficient killers. Fortunately for us they are also our best friends in the fight against deadly bacteria. Fortunately phages outnumber the deadly viruses, or we'd all be dead.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2020 06:58PM by schrodingerscat.

I think it's just a phage we're all going through.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So it may end up like a flu vaccine where we have
> to get it every year.


I see.

So, rather than just once, we could potentially have to pay Bill Gates *every* year for his virus remedy, if we want to get on a plane or see a baseball game or what have you (or maybe even be employed).

Human, not waiting in line any time soon.

Or pay like you do for a flu vaccine, which is to say, your insurance pays a nominal fee for it.

Why are you demonizing Bill Gates? From what I have read, he is willing to start manufacturing vaccines that are not yet proven, to get a leg up on a possible cure. He's clearly not doing this for the money. Instead, he's using his tremendous fortune for good -- exactly what we would wish of the fabulously wealthy.

I'm thinking this year may be worse, the kids have been out of school since March and so the immunity hasn't been developing. When the kids get back to school in September the flu is going to hit everyone. Maybe not the coronavirus but it may be a bad flu season especially for the early childhood group.

My advice is take plenty of vitamin C. And get lots of sleep at night. :)

Hospitalized for second time.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-05-13/coronavirus-test-second-infection-hospital

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The fact that people can get reinfected is very
> worrisome.

8 Sailors on the USS Roosevelt who already survived corona virus tested positive again.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/16/politics/uss-theodore-roosevelt-sailors-coronavirus/index.html

Of course, what the article neglects to mention is that there are at least 7 strains of Covid 19 in humans, 2 of which are active strains of Coronovirus at work, the East Asian (original Strain that originated in China) and the more recently mutated European strain, which is more virulent, dominant and contagious, which is why the East Coast is suffering worse than the West Coast in the US, because the East Coast is dealing with the European strain and the West coast has the Asian strain.
It could be that the unlucky 8 on the USS Roosevelt simply caught both strains.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-05-05/mutant-coronavirus-has-emerged-more-contagious-than-original

Thanks nomo1 for bringing this up. I look forward to reading what everyone has to say below about this important subject. This is a enlightening thread! :)

re: news coverage online at least.
- Several articles about how pollution cleaned up because most are staying because they have to. That is interesting...but I keep seeing this over and over in the news (internet) headlines...to reinforce the fact.

- HydroChoroquine (sp?) hyped up by the president, so many news outlets had stories where this was total quackery and started pushing the Remdemir (sp?) instead. Turns out both are being tested for their effectiveness and depending on a person's circumstances, health, blood type etc, both are showing benefits.

- The news while demanding that we ALL stay home...are now SHOCKED that our food supply and logistics may breakdown.

Agenda anyone???? I see a lot of problems caused by the govt, or state govts...which are now also saying they can provide the cure.

> - Several articles about how pollution cleaned up
> because most are staying because they have to.
> That is interesting...but I keep seeing this over
> and over in the news (internet) headlines...to
> reinforce the fact.

Can you demonstrate that the fact is emphasized more than consumers of news want?


---------------
> - HydroChoroquine (sp?) hyped up by the president,
> so many news outlets had stories where this was
> total quackery and started pushing the Remdemir
> (sp?) instead. Turns out both are being tested for
> their effectiveness and depending on a person's
> circumstances, health, blood type etc, both are
> showing benefits.

Nope. The major studies have concluded and the results are in: the president's favorite supplement, other than the Vitamin C commonly found in citrus fruits, is potentially lethal. Did you miss that?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/trump-says-he-e2-80-99s-taking-hydroxychloroquine-against-covid-19-despite-fda-warnings/ar-BB14gR8B


-----------------
> - The news while demanding that we ALL stay
> home...are now SHOCKED that our food supply and
> logistics may breakdown.

Who is shocked by that? Can you produce a few examples? Because I don't think you can find anything more alarmist than what was merited by expert opinion at any point in an evolving situation.


--------------
> Agenda anyone????

Do you have an agenda, something that would lead you to misinterpret and misrepresent facts?


-------------
> I see a lot of problems caused
> by the govt, or state govts...which are now also
> saying they can provide the cure.

Thank you for answering my last question.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2020 08:41PM by Lot's Wife.

"The news while demanding that we ALL stay home"

No one's demanded that we ALL stay home. You may have heard (or not) about "essential" vs. "non-essential" businesses. "Essential" businesses include those in the food supply chain: grocery stores, trucking companies, meat packers, etc. So yeah, no.


The malaria & lupus drug is not effective against the CV. (Of course, these sources aren't Fox News, so you may well simply dismiss it as more mainstream media lies and the big liberal conspiracy. I can't do anything about that.)

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200511/Hydroxychloroquine-is-not-effective-against-COVID-19-extensive-US-study-shows.aspx

https://www.contagionlive.com/news/chloroquine-hydroxychloroquine-ineffective-covid-19

Even Fox has denounced the president's favorite drug.

https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2020/05/18/neil-cavuto-stunned-by-trump-taking-hydroxychloroquine-it-will-kill-you/

https://www.thedailybeast.com/foxs-neil-cavuto-warns-viewers-after-trump-says-hes-taking-hydroxychloroquine-this-will-kill-you

Of course, a number of other conservative sites have jumped on Cavuto because he dared venture off the reservation. The state phalanx breaks up if anyone gets out of step.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2020 10:01PM by Lot's Wife.