Joseph Smith got the plates from the stone box.

How big was that thing?

Sword and Urim & Thummim in it as well?

And where is it now?

Did Joe leave the lid just lying on the ground when he was finally allowed to take the plates?

Why didn't he ever take any witnesses back to the box, so they could see it for themselves?

He said that it contained the breastplate with the U&T, but he doesn't say how he carried all that back when he got them. Did he just wear the breastplate?

He said that he often hid the plates. Did he also hide the breastplate?

I know - I've been often told I ask too many questions.

RPackham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> He said that it contained the breastplate with the
> U&T, but he doesn't say how he carried all that
> back when he got them. Did he just wear the
> breastplate?
>
> He said that he often hid the plates. Did he also
> hide the breastplate?
>
> I know - I've been often told I ask too many
> questions.

Good questions, Richard!

I can't believe I never thought Joseph Smith bringing back the U&T and it's accompanying breast plate before!

All the histories talk about him running back with the Golden Plates fighting and trying to escape from his enemies when he first obtained them. Its always been discussed how unlikely that would have been had they really been gold plates (or even if they were a lighter metal) it would be difficult but obviously he wasn't also running with the breastplate.

He must have gone back at some to grab those, looking like a knight of armor, haha.

But that also raises the question of why this sacred breastplate was never mentioned in any of the histories in conjunction with their many difficulties of keeping the Golden Plates hidden from their enemies. Seems like the breastplate would be just as difficult to hide as the plates. In addition, they would have had to bring it all the way down to the Hale Family farm too since Smith supposedly used it when translating with Martin Harris. Seems like they'd be at least an item of interest.

That's a really good question. Because in his first account he does not mention a box at all, and just says he got the plates from the local town!

From the Joseph Smith papers project, the 1832 account:

>he revealed unto me that in the Town of Manchester Ontario County N.Y. there was plates of gold upon which there was engravings which was engraven by Maroni & his fathers the servants of the living God in ancient days and deposited by th[e] commandments of God and kept by the power thereof and that I should go and get them and he revealed unto me many things concerning the inhabitents of of the earth which since have been revealed in commandments & revelations and it was on the 22d day of Sept. AD 1822 and thus he appeared unto me three times in one night and once on the next day and then I immediately went to the place and found where the plates was deposited as the angel of the Lord had commanded me and straightway made three attempts to get them and then being excedingly frightened I supposed it had been a dreem of Vision but when I considred I knew that it was not therefore I cried unto the Lord in the agony of my soul why can I not obtain them behold the angel appeared unto me again and said unto me you have not kept the commandments of the Lord which I gave unto you therefore you cannot now obtain them for the time is not yet fulfilled therefore thou wast left unto temptation that thou mightest be made accquainted of with the power of the advisary therefore repent and call on the Lord thou shalt be forgiven and in his own due time thou shalt obtain them for now I had been tempted of the advisary and saught the Plates to obtain riches and kept not the commandme[n]t that I should have an eye single to the Glory of God therefore I was chastened and saught diligently to obtain the plates and obtained them not untill I was twenty one years of age and in this year I was married to Emma Hale Daughtr of Isaach [Isaac] Hale who lived in Harmony Susquehan[n]a County Pensylvania on the 18th January AD, 1827, on the 22d day of Sept of this same year I obtained the plat[e]s—and the in December following we mooved to Susquehana by the assistence of a man by the name of Martin Har[r]is who became convinced of th[e] vision and gave me fifty Dollars to bare my expences and because of his faith and this rightheous deed the Lord appeared unto him in a vision and shewed unto him his marvilous work which he was about to do and <​h[e]​> imediately came to Suquehannah and said the Lord had shown him that he must go to new York City <​with​> some of the characters so we proceeded to coppy some of them and he took his Journy to the Eastern Cittys and to the Learned <​saying​> read this I pray thee and the learned said I cannot but if he would bring the blates [plates] they would read it but the Lord had forbid it and he returned to me and gave them to <​me​> <​to​> translate and I said I said cannot for I am not learned but the Lord had prepared spectticke spectacles for to read the Book therefore I commenced translating the characters and thus the Propicy [prophecy] of Isiaah was fulfilled which is writen in the 29 chaptr concerning the book

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-circa-summer-1832/4


EDIT:
The 1842 account is similarly vague: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/church-history-1-march-1842/2

It is only the 1838 account (the one in the D&C) that mentions a stone box. It just says this:

> Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth. Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2020 06:40PM by faraday.

According to a few searches on Google, there is no history of cement in the Americas prior to the Invasion of 1492.

So I wonder what material Mormon or Moroni used to hold the rocks together, in the shape of a box, that JoJu called "some kind of cement"?

I'm just gonna go ahead and say it: I think JoJu made up all of it!! There, I said it, and I feel better!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to a few searches on Google, there is no
> history of cement in the Americas prior to the
> Invasion of 1492.
>
> So I wonder what material Mormon or Moroni used to
> hold the rocks together, in the shape of a box,
> that JoJu called "some kind of cement"?
>
> I'm just gonna go ahead and say it: I think JoJu
> made up all of it!! There, I said it, and I feel
> better!


Well t be fair - sorry, to be fair-Mormon - sorry, to be fair-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-Im-not-typing-all-that-out, cement was supposed to be one of the big proofs. In that archaeologists did find something that somebody called cement. But it is not cement as we know it, but some kind of mud mix. Which explains what happened to the stone box: Joseph dug it up, it rained, the cement disintegrated and the box is just a few flat stones. No doubt lost among all the arrowheads.

But if the mud-mix "cement" disintegrated in rain, how would it have survived centuries of ground water and rain? And "A wizard-sorry-God did it" is not an acceptable answer.

Latest Church Essay:

There have been several accounts of the stone box and all offer insight into a growing church of these latter days

1 - 1840 sword of Laban, Urim and Thummin* used to translate BOM

2 - 1843 sword of laban, the belt buckle of Zelph, 2 chariots for
curelom and the rod of Nimrod to be used for some dowsing
before being taken up to heaven to test the faith of saints
explaining their stories to rational thinking people

3 - 2020 I am not sure that we teach that


* Later replaced by brown stone found in well, used for treasure hunting prior to its ultimate holy purpose of translating gold plates also taken up to heaven upon completion

100 billion plus dollars was contained in that goddam box.

Maybe this is why God told them to save $100 billion dollars for no particular reason.

God is planning on filling that box once again and taking it up into heaven. A restoration of all things!

Truly the Lord provides a way. I just hope the foreign exchange rate is more favorable up there.

Hint: There was no stone box so it could hold anything Joe's imagination could conjure up.

Mother Smith said the Breast Plate was large enough to cover a man from neck to waist.

She also said Joseph valued the seer stones more than anything as he could use them to see anything anywhere.

She also said he'd use the spectacles to check on the plates to make sure they were safe.

I'd also read the Liahons was in the box.

One thing that should have been in the box was enough gold nephite money to sell to pay for the publication of the plates.

Nothing.

If only we had been able to all see what was in the box

We could have used our secret knowledge when asked to give all of time and money to church -

the Liahono! I need to seek the advice of my attorney before entering into all unilateral agreements with God or those who claim to know his mind without his express written permission.

It's like the TARDIS- bigger on the inside than on the outside.

Isn't it time to wave Brother Zelph a theological farewell?

oodles and gobs

Lol.

Just a rock!

Well, a rocking chair actually... but it was abbreviated.

Absolutely nothing; Our loco neighbor claimed he had all of it: breastplate, spectacles and the Liahona, all tucked in his briefcase.

One time in SS class (back in the day when we were active), he passed around a photo that he claimed to have taken. It was a tornado bearing down on the car he was riding in. In the center of the tornado was the figure of a long-haired, bearded man wearing temple robes and doing one of the temple endowment signs.

Thankfully, he moved away a couple of years ago.

Why doesn't the compulsive liar fisherman ever produce any of the gigantic fish he says he caught? Same reason, all a lie so nothing real to show.