My soon to be X married me in the temple in 1984. I was TBM. I knew he'd had alcohol in his past, but I believed him when he said he would take me to the temple as a worthy priesthood holder.

He lied.

He lied for 35 years. I'm not entirely stupid. I figured out he didn't believe and never had despite a very Mormon upbringing. I felt sorry for him because he was put in a situation where declaring his non-belief would have put him in a bad place. He figured out that it wasn't true at about 8 years old. He learned to go along. He learned to lie without saying anything. When he had to say something, he lied.

He lied through all of those priesthood interviews.

"Brother Dorothy, do you have a problem with m*sterbation?"
"No."

It's so easy.

It was so easy, he lied to me for 35 years.

He never stopped drinking.

He didn't want kids. We had two.

Eventually he didn't want to be married.

He certainly didn't believe the Mormon church and never had any intention of practicing it.

When I finally wanted out, he put a gun in my face.

Then he lied under oath and said it didn't happen.

I keep wondering, how much of this is just him?

How much is chronic lying needed from an early age in order to get by in a church that makes ridiculous demands?

I have long believed this. In my article debunking the idea that raising children in the church is good for them (at http://packham.n4m.org/children.htm ), I wrote:

Mormons subtly (and probably unintentionally) teach children to lie.

Mormons, including children, are interviewed by the bishop as to their "worthiness" for every step of their progress in the church, starting at the age of eight, when preparing for baptism into the church. In these interviews the Mormon child is faced with the choice of telling the truth "Yes, Bishop, I masturbate once in a while" and thus being declared unworthy for the next advancement, or of lying to the bishop. Many children thus learn to lie: "No, bishop, I do not masturbate." This is not a lesson, I think, that children should learn: you get punished (or at least scolded) for telling the truth, you get advancement (and praise for your "righteous obedience to the commandments") for lying.

Jarom Smith, a former Mormon who was raised in the church, made this comment (used with permission):

"And I was one of the dumb-asses that told the truth...

"If I had to put it in one word, I would say that my integrity led me out of the LDS organization. There were so many times that I could have lied my way through a priesthood interview or given people the answer that I knew they wanted to hear, but my internal moral compass wouldn't allow me to do so. The ironic thing, and the thing that caused me to start to question the LDS church, was that instead of being rewarded (or at least commended) for my honesty I was punished. Meanwhile, I saw others lie their way through the organization with impunity. This taught me two things: A) the leaders had no "spirit of discernment" and B) the organization valued lip-service over honesty.

"After figuring out that the LDS church was a fraud, I was still encouraged by family/friends to retain my membership in the church, even though I no longer believed. I guess they saw it as a less drastic step than full resignation. Perhaps some of them thought that at some point in the future I would "see the light" and return to full fellowship. What they didn't understand is that they were asking me to lie -- AGAIN!! -- by professing to have a belief in an organization/theology in which I clearly had none."

It still astonishes me how rampant lying is in the Mormon church, at the most subtle levels. Mormons teach their children to lie when they teach them to bear their testimony. It just snowballs from there....

As soon as they are able to talk, Mormon children are urged to "bear their testimony" in testimony meeting. They are usually just mouthing the words put into their ears by a parent: "I know that Joseph Smiff was a pwoffut and the Book Mommum is twoo. Nameofjesuschristamen!" They know nothing of the sort. But they are praised for saying something they do not even understand. They are being encouraged to lie. (This kind of repetition of meaningless mantras is, of course, one of the techniques in brainwashing.)

Integrity is not a Mormon value. Loyalty is. "Thou shalt not make the organization look bad" is the first and greatest commandment.

Who is the father of lies? The Mormon Church is the best example of what Lucifree Standforsomething, The Brother of Jesus, would have created to lead away, yeah even the very elect of God.

All this is correct. You lie to survive. You keep your mouth shut also to survive. You know the punishment for wanting out. Total unsupported exile. And the worst acknowledgement is knowing you will be seen as 'crazy' the moment you show rebellion and the devil is your master to them. The whole time you are going along with it to survive if you were like me you also thought "how the hell do i get out of this mess that i was born into successfully?" And you have no clue as everyone around you is involved with it and the pressure is on you to go along with it until the day you die. I did think death was the only way out of what i had gotten born into. My family would never accept that deep down i knew the religion was false at a young age. Too me it was obvious but the intimidation was very strong not just from the operation but from family as well. Constant intimidation to stay in line like a hostage. Join in their cult talk with them. But i never could. I never cared about what so and so was doing. Or people praising this leader. Or quoting that leader. Or ensign this or mission that. Mission there mission here. Secrets secrets secrets.

The church certainly does come across as encouraging the lies that make church life go smoothly.

Plus one learns right off the bat that there is no inspiration given to the men who heard my lies to the effect that they were lies. So lie upon lie!

Lie upon lie---yup--is the antidote to "precept upon precept", a phrase I heard often and was impressed with though I had no idea what a precept was other than some other marvelous thing our Heavenly Father had given us out of love.

So I just looked it up for the first time.

Precept: a general rule intended to regulate behavior or thought. And with Mormons regulating everything, of course we were all claiming the dog ate our homework.

The short answer: YES!

The long answer: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

The "Brethren" made me lie for 2 whole years of my one-&-only life on my mission to good and decent folks...who were much too good to ever become Mormons anyway.

I was NEVER allowed to tell the truth about Joseph Smith & his shenanigans once I found out about many of them just a few weeks into my mission from a college level Philosophy instructor that we tracted out.

I was never the same after that but played along for 2-years.

EACH & EVERY MISSIONARY OUT THERE IS A LIAR WHETHER THEY KNOW IT OR NOT!!!

& As well...Each & Every member of the Q-15 is a congenital liar...problem is THEY KNOW IT!!!

Or so it seems to me...

It certainly does, since LDS Inc is entirely based on LIES and since MORE LYING is needed to keep the existing THE (MORmON) church (LIE) going.

.....Lie upon lie, just like elderolddog said.

a MORmON fool time mission is certainly a training operation to have missionaries capably LYING for LDS Inc.

It teaches everyone to lie. Fake it till you make it.

The Mormon's church is all "form over substance." Image over truth. The facade is everything and the pressure to appear perfect fosters the pressure to lie.

Which is all an admission that they don't really believe because they aren't concerned in the least about God seeing them lie but only concerned what their neighbors think.

Honesty was one of the great values I thought I learned from the church. That value led me out of the church. I had to have integrity to leave once I found out the truth.

Three most important values (:
1. Honesty/integrity
2. Empathy
3. Repentance/Taking Responsibility (recognize when you do something wrong or make a mistake and change to do better)

One and Three are almost the same.

Valued Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One and Three are almost the same.

Not quite. Christianity would have people believe that lie. Humans are "souls" with "values" and virtue can be found in them. Repentance to another and forgiveness in return isn't something sky zombie saviors can give.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2020 07:38PM by Elder Berry.

I do not see the type of repentance I am choosing as an exclusive religious value. Or, do I see the need to beg for forgiveness. I see repentance or being humble as the basis of learning. A person who cannot be honest with others cannot be honest with themselves and learn from their mistakes. You learn from what you do and improve on it.

Valued Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A person
> who cannot be honest with others cannot be honest
> with themselves and learn from their mistakes.

If this were true people would never learn. And those who cannot learn from their mistakes are cursed with repeating them. But we are the adaptive animal. Some of us may not learn from mistakes but there will always be some that do honestly with others or not.

Your problem as I see it is simplification of the human condition and over reifying "values" as things accessible to all. And worthy of this and desirable to boot.

Ivory towers are pretty but often don't function as designed.

When did BYU require a temple recommend for all employees who were members of the mormon church? I believe it was around 1990. At any rate, someone wrote a letter to the Provo Daily Herald and I believe it was a professor who asked to remain anonymous. The gist of the letter was to complain about this requirement because all it would do is make liars of most of the employees. In other words, being honest when it might mean they lose their job, the letter writer said most people are going to do whatever they need to do to keep their job.

So, if this is, indeed a requirement to work there, lots of employees are probably lying in their temple recommend interviews.

Reminds me of the non mormon Army Officer assigned to teach ROTC that refused to sign the "honor code agreement" stating he would not give up coffee and wouldn't lie about it.

If I remember, he was told to sign it he wasn't expected to follow it.

That is exactly right. BYU administration assumed he'd be ok with signing it and ignoring the promise that signified. They had no concept that that would violate his sense of integrity. To him, his word meant something, and he would not sign it.

Integrity is not a Mormon value.

I think both the church and the leaders are taught to lie. In fact they are encouraged to lie. But it makes logical sense if you leave the church and find out the doctrine and history is a lie.

Mormons are also known to cheat as well as lie. Not just the men but a lot of Mormon women don't know how to leave other women's men alone. What is also weird is Mormon men get upset when women show too much skin, yet will sexually tease a woman dressed like a "nun." I saw this a lot as a teenager in the 90s.

Mormons teach members to "avoid the appearance of evil" and being less than a perfect member is a disgrace. Add in a clueless lay clergy and a widespread gossip network (I swear sewing circles and sailors are less prone to gossip than Mormons, but the Mormons will never admit it) and lying ends up required to survive in the Morg. Men in the cult lie, women in the cult lie, and I'm still trying to be more honest in my life.

Yes. That suicidal throat slitting promise we made in the Temple to not speak evil of the Lords Annointed?
Turns out they meant even if the guy is ficking your kids or wife.
You cant say, do shit.

I did lie in some of my worthiness interviews and learned that the bishops weren't able to discern that I want telling the truth, but the guilt eventually killed me from being told constantly that lying was a sin. I ended up confessing everything. If I had been less of a believer, I would have just lied to get the thing over with. I wouldn't say that I was ever taught to lie, but some people were smart enough to figure out that it was easier that way.

"Do you have a problem with masturbation?"

No, it's NO PROBLEM!!!

All men lie. The Church may give justification for some lies, and condemn others. To say it "teaches" men to lie is too far. All men lie, Mormon leaders included. The difference I think is they felt justified, while others may feel guilty, and others more may not care at all.

I think soon to be X is a not care at all guy.

What does soon to be X mean?

soon to be ex-husband

ChurchCo didn't care about my wife's lies, or her hate, or her greed; they Knowingly gave her the Green Light to a vicious, deceitful divorce, then rewarded her for it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2020 01:02AM by GNPE.

Wow. I'm sorry you went through that. It's a reverse of most of the Mormon divorce stories I've heard. In the ones I've heard, the abused wife is shamed while the priesthood holder is supported.

I'd like to hear more of your story.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2020 12:47PM by Dorothy.

Dorothy- please PM me, my email is listed...

Mormon leaders lie about their lies, then lies, false stories trickle down to others.

this Exact thing also happened within my family

I'm not tech savvy at all. I did figure out how to show my email. How do I find an email address?

My now husband's Mormon ex-wife encouraged her that her husband and the 2 teenage kids they had together were evil and raised havoc on his family. I have 2 teenage sons with the same man years before I married my now husband. The Mormons also broke up my relationship with my 2 sons biological father. My family tried to lie to my sons about how horrible me and their father are plus I had to take my own mother to court so me and my 2 sons biological father wouldn't be shoved out of our own children's lives. Mormons are really vicious when you're not their favorites. Please don't take this as ego, I know I'm not the Creator, but if I was none of us would be going through this pain. Plus it wouldn't even be heard of. We would be in a paradise without the bullcrap and love each other as we are. A lot of people would see this as control freak and messing with "free will," but let's be honest, haven't we had enough torture? A so called cruel test on a dying planet? Free will sure, but I don't think all this pain and suffering is worth it. Free will should be paradise.

Interesting thoughts SunGodess. I'll sign up for your version of life. This one is kind of yucky right now.

"The greatest virtue in christianity is hypocrisy" said a Belgian priest (Rudy Borremans) when he left the Roman Catholic church. The RC church had suspended him for falling in love with another man. The archbishop literally told him "Your parish has a choir of 30 boys. And you had to choose the one adult?"

So yes, religion teaches people to lie. Not only mormonism, not only catholicism, not only islam. The greatest virtue in every religion is hypocrisy.

The mormon church teaches everyone to lie. They even pressure you to do it from the pulpit occasionally.

Dorothy, I’m sorry that you are going through this after all those years of marriage. I was married into a bunch of pathological liars. They were Mormons, but I think they were liars first and foremost.

I hope you have the skills and education that will enable you to do well on your own.

You said, soon-to-be X. Are you still living in the same home? What do your children think of all of his lies?

Thanks for checking on me. I wondered if this story was too personal for RFM.

I'm out now and safe.

I got out of the closet by promising not to go to the police and by promising to give him pretty much everything in the divorce.

I intended to keep that promise. I'm painfully honest. It's a fault of mine.

I stayed for a whole month after. I was in shock. I was allowed to take very few things. It seemed okay because I could only afford a room in a teacher friend's house. I'm a school nurse. I don't make squat.

After I was out, I went back to my house without his permission. He'd installed cameras. I thought he was going to kill me.

I went to the police who did what they do for most domestic trauma survivors--nothing--with a side of blame.

I did get a protection order, but he easily got it dismissed. No physical evidence.

He blocked me from our joint accounts. He's demanding my phone and phone number, my laptop, all of our savings and investments. He took 85% of our belongings.

The worst is he convinced our daughter that I was lying. Well she doesn't say it, but she said, "One of you is lying to me." She's been chilly. Why in the world would I make up such a story?

People say the truth will come out, but I don't believe it.

On the plus side--I'm happy to be alive.

I hope you have a good lawyer, Dorothy. The situation sounds terrible and you need somebody who can tip the balance of power in your direction.

Best of luck.

Mormonism is a lie.

To be a faithful Mormon you must not only lie to others, but also lie to yourself.

Only if you are alone or with somebody

"Brother Dorothy, do you have a problem with m*sterbation?"
answer=no.
Obviously this person did not have a problem with it!

As we think about the corona virus, it seemed like an interesting thought experiment to apply a pandemic analysis method to Mormon bishop interviews.


Bayes' theorem states:
P(A|B)=P(A).P(B|A)/P(B)

P(A|B) means the probability of A given B

In this case: the probability of an interviewee being "pure" given that the interviewee asserts purity.

P(A) is the prevalence of purity in a population. Rather analogous to the prevalence of a disease in a population. I am not saying that purity is a disease.

As a thought population let's choose 17 year old boys.
Some data exists to suggest that Mormon-grade purity has a prevalence of around 0.1.
If you have better data feel free to use it.

P(B|A) is the probability of asserting purity when actually being "pure." I think this value is very close to 1.0.

P(B) is the probability of asserting purity in an interview. I was never a bishop, but perhaps this value is around 0.9.

So P(A|B) = 0.1*1.0/0.9 =0.11

For this hypothetical population the probability of an interviewee being "pure" given an assertion of purity is around 11 percent.

Looks like quite effective training for lying.

Here is a useful reference on Bayes' theorem:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-bayess-theorem-an/

ChurchCo is CONFIGURED around lies.

Joey had a 'vision', but a vision isn't an actual on-the-ground event, it's close to a dream.

BY lied & covered up about the MMM.

others since may not have been so specific Except when they 'bear their testimony', which: Has Russ Nelson done? seriously, I'd like to know.... What did he say?

No.,they don't teach them to lie. It comes naturally to them. The cult just refines their natural talent and how to get more creative with their lies.

Does the church teach men to lie ?
Yup.
And women too.

It LIES. ALWAYS-
Members follow.

Let me answer your question with a question.

Would claiming persecution your entire life for an event that you claimed happened 20 years ago but never told anybody about at the time but now expect people to give their money, wives and devotion to you be considered a lie?

I guess it is all how you define what lie is. Mormons call that belief and they espouse their beliefs as told to.

The church institutionalized lying from its inception by printing and presenting to the world one stance on the practice of polygamy while practicing another. I assume that most everyone who reads these discussions knows that the third prophet, John Taylor lied about it while doing missionary work in France in the 1850's. The church leaders knew that by telling the truth about the practice of plural marriage many (especially the women) would not be persuaded to join and come to Utah. Ya know, milk, not meat for babes in the gospel. Here is his recorded statements(lies) while doing missionary work in France.

"We are accused here of polygamy,... and actions the most indelicate,
obscene, and disgusting, such that none but a corrupt and depraved
heart could have contrived. These things are too outrageous to admit
of belief;... I shall content myself by reading our views of chastity
and marriage, from a work published by us containing some of the
articles of our Faith. 'Doctrine and Covenants,' page 330... Inasmuch
as this Church of Jesus Christ has been reproached with the crime of
fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man
should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the
case of death,..."' (A tract published by John Taylor in 1850, page 8;
found in Orson Pratt's Works, 1851 edition)

In 1850, John Taylor had married twelve polygamous wives.

The part that gets me is there are scriptures that say "I the Lord cannot lie" and yet another scripture in D&C 1:38 that says "...whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.” Does anyone else see a problem here?

You bet your boots it does.

BUT....seeing as how much of the church's history is alive and available for research and study, its lies are available for men to discover, thereby realizing how the church operates.

That is....IF they will only dare to take the leap and plunge into the sea of evidence, daring to think for themselves.

"Does the church teach men to lie?"

Interesting question.

And who is the church? Mostly women. Who teach primary, and their own children about church lies.

Somehow we read countless stories here of men trying to tell the truth to their wives, but they face anger or divorce.

So, yeah, there is lying everywhere, including the whole marriage fraud. Promise to love forever, but soon start fault-finding and likely divorce.

If we were honest, just say I want your money, or sex, or whatever. Few marriages are about love.

Its interesting to read your view on things free man. I don't often read perspectives like yours. I think primary is when i was taught a lot by women which is a critical and impressionable time to be taught in my honest opinion. The main thing i remember is the neverending singing. Don't remember much else. I do know my parents marriage was bizarre and not about love. They both loved money that is for sure. Who am i kidding most mormons love money more than life itself. I mean who the hell stockpiles a 100 billion dollars unused to help, well, anybody?

You want honesty, Free Man?

The reason your marriage didn't work, and why I'm hostile to you on this board, is because you are a self-righteous asshole who scapegoats everyone with XX chromosomes instead of trying to be a better person.

Had to lie about having a testimony? That was a past mistake YOU made, not the sisters. Your wife and daughters left you? Maybe you should have been a less shitty husband and father instead of claiming that they were against you from the beginning. Lot's Wife and others giving you crap? There's no scheme or "anti-Free Man" feminist cabal, you just act like a condescending jerk on a good day and a rabid incel on others.

Women aren't responsible for your mistakes-- YOU are.

I try to lie less after leaving. Try lying to yourself less often.

Another factor is the "us against them" battleground mindset.

Lying to outsiders is considered noble, like Oscar Schindler lying to the Nazis.