The BYU Vocal Point choir performed (virtually) on a CNN memorial hour this morning honouring victims of COVID-19 (nearly 104,000 to date in the USA). They sang "Be Thou My Vision", a Christian hymn attributed to a 6th century Irish saint.

They sounded pretty good.

I admit to being surprised at their choice of hymn, it being a firm Christian favourite. Looking them up, I see they sing other well known Christian hymns, such as "Nearer, my God, to Thee" and "In Christ Alone".

I don't know anything about this choir - have never heard of them before today - and I don't want to bad mouth them just because they're Mormon. In fact, I must say, as above, they sounded like a good choir. (They were cut off before the end of their song, the show ending with their music).

But.

Be Thou My Vision is a decidedly Christian song. Looking them up, I see that many of their other song choices are also well known Christian favourites. Christian theology is evident in their music. I would wonder at any choir or singer that would perform a hymn that doesn't reflect their own beliefs.

Unless they think the songs do embrace their tenets? I know Mormon leaders say they are a Christian sect. But, as we know, their theological beliefs differ starkly from traditional Christianity. That is the reason that Christians don't consider Mormonism to be a Christian religion. We have often discussed here the reasons for that. I know it inflames even some exmos as it seems like a snub or an insult or a judgement as to someone else's beliefs or lack thereof. It's just that there are foundational principles in Christianity that, by definition, if you don't accept them you are not considered to be Christian. I know that can feel like judgement. I have felt judged myself due to not being able to embrace some teachings and it's not a pleasant experience.

But. I don't find it all that honest to sing these Christian songs in particular as to outsiders, in my estimation, it indicates beliefs that Mormons don't hold. That means to me that some misrepresentation is going on.

Unless Mormons think that it doesn't matter whether the theology of the music matches theirs or not?

Here are the words to Be Thou My Vision (that the choir sang on TV today):

Be Thou my Vision, O Lord of my heart
Naught be all else to me, save that Thou art
Thou my best Thought, by day or by night
Waking or sleeping, Thy presence my light

Be Thou my Wisdom, and Thou my true Word
I ever with Thee and Thou with me, Lord
Thou my great Father, I Thy true son
Thou in me dwelling, and I with Thee one

Riches I heed not, nor man's empty praise
Thou mine Inheritance, now and always
Thou and Thou only, first in my heart
High King of Heaven, my Treasure Thou art

High King of Heaven, my victory won
May I reach Heaven's joys, O bright Heav'n's Sun
Heart of my own heart, whate'er befall
Still be my Vision, O Ruler of all

---

Bearing in mind the drastic differences in how Mormons and Christians interpret the Bible with regard to Jesus Christ and God, Trinity etc, do the above sentiments reflect Mormon beliefs?


For another example, here are some of the words to the beloved Christian hymn "In Christ Alone" that this choir also performs:

In Christ alone my hope is found,
He is my light, my strength, my song;
This Cornerstone, this solid Ground,
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm.
What heights of love, what depths of peace,
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease!
My Comforter, my All in All,
Here in the love of Christ I stand.

...

No guilt in life, no fear in death,
This is the power of Christ in me;
From life’s first cry to final breath,
Jesus commands my destiny.
No power of hell, no scheme of man,
Can ever pluck me from His hand:
Till He returns or calls me home,
Here in the power of Christ I’ll stand.

-----

Do those words reflect any Mormon beliefs you've ever heard?

Again, I'm not intending to quibble about theology with my remarks here. Just saying that, although the choir sounded nice, don't the music choices give an incorrect impression of Mormonism?

That's what bugged me the most about being a convert. It felt like bait-and-switch. Yes, I should have done more homework before jumping into the font. But. Do the music choices, as sampled above, give a true picture of Mormon beliefs? Or do they present a different face to the non-mo public? If the latter, it's a mind-bending deceit.

But the choir sounds nice. So is that all that matters? Maybe I'm just weird for wanting or expecting accuracy. Even with their music.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2020 01:39PM by Nightingale.

I don,t see much in the first song that conflicts with Mormon theology. When I hear Mormon groups singing Amazing Grace I do see a conflict. I was surprised last Christmas when a "top ten" Christian hymn "It is Well With My Soul"was featured in a concert complete with a narrative of how and why the song was composed.

Hi kentish. I didn't make my point clear.

The Christian teaching of the Trinity is inherent in this hymn.

This verse in particular evokes the Trinity:

Be Thou my Wisdom, and Thou my true Word;
I ever with Thee and Thou with me, Lord;
Thou my great Father, I Thy true son;
Thou in me dwelling, and I with Thee one.

“Word” = Jesus
"Thou" and "Father" = God
“Dwelling” (in us) = Holy Spirit


Maybe it means something different to Mormons or maybe they are not aware of its meaning to Christians.

I too would be surprised to hear Mormons getting behind "It is Well With My Soul", especially the "Praise the Lord" part! It's one of my favourites as I like the melody and the contemplative nature of it. I also like that it reminds me not to get too grumpy or lacking in appreciation, no matter what's up.

My bottom line with it is whether it's a mainstreaming attempt by CoJCoLDS and I think it is. I find that inherently dishonest. Did Joseph Smith wander through the woods singing Amazing Grace? I would be surprised if so.

The Mormon statement on grace is that we are saved by grace - "after all we can do".

That is the opposite of the Christian view which is that we are saved by grace - a gift from God, not achieved by our own actions.

I know you know this, kentish. I'm just explaining what I didn't make clear in my first post. I wasn't trying to make it a theological treatise, just assumed the trinitarian aspect of the hymn would be apparent. And Mormons don't teach trinity - at least, not in the traditional Christian sense of the concept - God being three-in-one.

My purpose isn't to expound Christian doctrine or say Mormon teachings are wrong - topics not in line with RfM's purpose. I'm just pointing out that it seems Mormons are trying to appear mainstream with their musical choices and it gives the wrong impression.

Which bugs me. It's misleading. To the world at large but, more importantly, to anyone who may be "taking discussions" with missionaries who are being told that Mormons are (mainstream) Christians which we know they're not.

They should own their own history and teachings.

That is all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2020 04:34PM by Nightingale.

Typical Mormon bait and switch

Thank you. That's what I thought.

I would respect them for showing the courage of Joe's convictions. Not this trip they're on. It's dishonest. Why are you singing theology you don't believe in?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2020 05:21PM by Nightingale.

On a similar note, I’ve lost count of how many people I know, even fairly active Christians, who are fooled by the Piano Guys, and rave about what great Christians they are, sharing about Jesus in their concerts. Uh, no! They’re Mormons.

After my wife passed, I sang in a Methodist choir for a while. It was a fairly liberal congregation, the music director was openly gay, and even he came to practice raving about the Piano Guys after seeing their show. They would discount him in so many ways... He was shocked when I told him the background.

It’s all phony baloney, of course, but I think the Morg is gonna pull all stops to be considered mainstream christian at this point.

That's funny about people's perceptions that can be so different from reality - who's Christian, who's Mormon (and who cares is also one I can hear many readers here say).

But it makes me sad too. I wish I didn't think Mormons were trying to be sneaky but there is evidence that points that way.


Gordon B. Stinky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It’s all phony baloney, of course, but I think
> the Morg is gonna pull all stops to be considered
> mainstream christian at this point.

It sure seems so. Even *they* at that point don't believe their own schtick. They must think it's not good enough and definitely they cannot really believe in JS' doctrines any more if they have to go after converts by misrepresenting their entire church concept.

Here's Trinity for them: Courage. Of. Convictions.

If you believe in Mormonism, preach Mormonism.

If not, well, there are other choices you should face up to.

Not disagreeing, Nightingale, but the trinity reference is more hidden than say the hymn line "god in three persons, blessed trinity". The would be a bridge too far I think.

Oh yes, I agree.

I appreciate your input.

"Nearer, My God, to Thee" is #100 in the current Mormon hymnal. I'm not sure why the COJCOLDS never co-opted "Be Thou My Vision." Both the tune and lyrics are in the public domain; LDS, Inc. wouldn't need anyone's permission to tweak any lyrics that didn't strictly mesh with Mormon theology.

"In Christ Alone" is very modern -- I believe it was first published in 2002. It's quite popular now but too new to be considered traditional. I would be surprised if the church could get Keith Getty's or Stuart Townsend's permission to include it in any future LDS hymn publication even if they asked.

The LDS hymnal has a rather large section of restorationist hymns, along with the sacrament hymns and a few others, which are specific to LDS doctrine, but there are many hymns included that were borrowed from mainstream sources, mostly Protestant.



Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The BYU Vocal Point choir performed (virtually) on
> a CNN memorial hour this morning honouring victims
> of COVID-19 (nearly 104,000 to date in the USA).
> They sang "Be Thou My Vision", a Christian hymn
> attributed to a 6th century Irish saint.
>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2020 04:12AM by scmd1.