I'm Cody (I go by Cody Mac, it's an old nickname). I'm in long-term recovery from IV and prescription opioid, stimulant and sedative dependence and abuse through NA and other programs. I am also a survivor of sexual, physical, emotional and religious abuse thanks to recovery groups, therapy, faith and my family. I've been reading posts here for years. I'm Roman Catholic as the result of my own spiritual journey. I am fascinated by other faiths and I've been researching the mormon church and its many "eternal and unchangeable truths" which change frequently for a for a very long time; it absolutely floors me that old Joe Smith actually got away with his con and HOW RAPIDLY it was used to control a society. (Trust me, I am VERY aware of the way Rome perpetrated very similar things throughout history; I'm no bigot nor hypocrite and certainly educated on the subject). I am simply amazed at the level of control this "Mormon" corporation exerts over so many faithful and truth-seeking people. I believe whole-heartedly in the healing process of recovery and I hope that if I can encourage or help anyone here in any way that you will let me know. I look forward to great conversations and new friends here! I'm a very ask-me-anything type of person, so feel free.
My question is:
As an ex-mormon, what can you nail down as the most potent influence the mormon church and its authorities use to "keep people in line" and how did that affect you? For example, I was raised in a Southern Baptist church that engaged in a lot of love-bombing and the like. Most people in the little community we lived in went to our church, and so if you were seen committing such atrocities as buying a bottle of wine or going to a bar, or missing church, or just "sinning" more generally, you were quickly gossipped and shunned into submission. I know mormonism teaches members to engage in the same behavior, but it's...different. It seems much worse. I guess what I'm asking is from your perspective, what was the biggest fear you had or the biggest reservation you had about leaving and what made you personally realize that enough was enough? I'm also interested in hearing what the pressure to tithe is like. From my understanding, tithing is paramount to the mormon church. It seems more like coercion or extortion. I just wonder what that pressure feels like to individuals and how they "enforce" it. It must be terrible for everyone but especially for struggling families. I can't imagine how that must have felt.
Thanks so much for reading and once again, I'm really glad to be here and I'm looking forward to meeting everybody!
Woo boy, that's a tough question (and Carter was president when I sobered up; NA didn't even arrive in Utah until a few months later).
>>As an ex-Mormon, what can you nail down as the most potent influence the Mormon church and its authorities use to "keep people in line" and how did that affect you?
Well, here on Planet Utah where I grew up, non-LDS sorts are almost non-existent in government these days, and all of the neighborhoods state-wide are divided into wards that are part of larger "stakes." These are administered by a lay clergy consisting of a bishop and two counselors. There's a separate organization for women (The Relief Society), but real power lays with LDS men.
I don't think it's possible--or prudent--to identify a single "most potent influence" because indoctrination begins at a young age, is augmented in the public schools (all secondary schools have a seminary building close to campus, and "release time" is offered), and Sunday services occupy much of members' Sabbath Day.
I'm glad you've been able to meet your "spiritual needs" through membership in the Catholic Church; many Mormons, having seen "religion deconstructed" (the history of LDS, Inc. is pretty "checkered" as well) opt for atheism, and I'm not one to criticize that path.
In the name of the late John Bradshaw,
SLC
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2020 11:27AM by SL Cabbie.
The church used sex, guilt and family to control its members.
Mids as young as 7 are grilled on their sexual activities sometimes as often as every three months.
Girls are taught it's their fault if a boy fondles them or has sex with them. They are responsible for his sin.
Boys are taught that masturbation is a sin next to murder. From the 60s to the 80s when I left the church I can tell you the church doctrine was that masturbation led to homosexuality.
The guilt laid on kids and teens for having natural feelings is enormous. My sweet niece tried to take her own life because of this treatment. Fortunately her parents left the church and she recovered.
The church has published articles telling abuse and rape victims they need to speak with their bishops to determine the level of responsibility they the victim bear in causing their abuse and how to repent.
How do you avoid these things? Simple. Unerringly and unquestionably follow church leaders.
Girls are taught if their boyfriends don't go on missions the girls are responsible for the sins of all the people the boy could have converted.
Again sex and guilt.
Once a couple marries, there is a joint responsibility to unquestionably follow church leaders or their spouses and kids will be torn away from them in the next life.
A spouse leaving the church often leads to a church sanctioned divorce and restrictive visitation of kids lest the errant parent cause their children to be damned.
The wearing of garments to bed, to be removed only for sex then put back on, keeps couples from reaching certain levels of intimacy. Thus the church is always a third party in the bedroom.
Sex. Guilt. Fear of losing family here and hereafter. The main means of control.
As for tithing...the church teaches to pay tithing before rent, utilities, food or medical care. Failure to pay results in being damned and losing your family forever.
Hi Cody! I'm a nevermo (never a Mormon) who was raised Catholic, although I've out of that for most of my life. I'm here on the board because I like exmos and like helping out (from a nevermo perspective) as needed. I've been here for more than a dozen years.
Mormonism is a high-control group, very similar to the JWs. There are lots and lots of meetings and activities that are used to thoroughly indoctrinate the members and keep them in the fold. To give you an idea, high school aged kids are expected to go to seminary (a church class focused on indoctrination) every school day for about an hour. In Utah schools give release time for this, with seminary buildings often built right next to the high schools. Outside of the Moridor (the belt of high Mormon areas stretching from Arizona, through Utah and western Wyoming, and up to Idaho and eastern Washington,) kids wake up very early to go to seminary first thing every morning. All of this is done on top of Sunday church and lessons, weekday youth activities, and summer camp, etc.
One of the big sticks that Mormonism has that Catholicism doesn't is the temple. In order to qualify for a temple recommend, members must keep to the straight and narrow and be able to pass a detailed interview with their bishop. It's a big incentive for members to fall into line.
I'd have to say the biggest tool they use to demand/submit/coerce you into compliance is the eternal family doctrine. You can only be with your family if you're a worthy member, meaning you pay tithing and obey church leadera so you can go to the temple to be sealed to your family forever. I realized on my mission to Latin America the world was a big place and began doubting that a bunch of inbred hicks from Utah (including myself) were God's favorite people. I went inactive within 1 year of being home and haven't been back much since in nearly 20 years.
I'm not sure I'll answer all your questions. I was born into Mormonism and didn't leave until I was 40.
To me, the biggest way they control is through conditioning and fear. They condition you from a very young age to only accept things that confirm the church. They condition you to feel that anything contrary to what they teach is associated with Satan trying to mess with you, so you avoid deep study that exposes the church. They condition you to think you will lose your family in an afterlife if you don't play along. They condition you to always favor the church when you have conflicting information. They condition you to think that you are a little more special than everyone else because you have "more truth." They condition you to accept their "authority" trumps facts, sound argument and your own connection with spirituality. Their authority is presented as some kind of required middleman to a God. They condition you to think it is OK to keep women suppressed. They condition you to mostly associate with other Mormons and dominate your time with busywork.
The fear comes from the deep ingrained belief that if you are not doing what God wants - following all their teachings, you will not achieve a high level in heaven with your family. You will feel guilt for everything.
Good luck in your recovery from everything, Cody Mac. I recently lived among S. Baptists for many years, and I have to say in some ways they are worse than Mormons. Although Catholics seem to not care about all the issues with their religion, they still perpetuate oppression of women in a huge way. That male priesthood BS is extremely harmful. I won't go into all the problems with the theology I have with the Church, but I am glad you are finding what you need there.
To me, study is the most important thing to overcome what we have experienced because knowledge is power. When you have the knowledge about what has happened to you and why things are the way they are, it can be more important than recovery groups, therapy, faith and my family. Learning about (for example) the history of religions, the physiology of addiction, the psychology of abusers, critical thinking, etc. helps us understand why things happened to us and how to move on. With knowledge we have more power to outgrow the problems we had in the past.
Good luck as you rebuild your life. Your past was part of your journey that brought you to who you are now.
Is it possible that this conditioning could also be classed as a form of extortion? You give me 10% of your grosss annual revenue or I will kick you out of heaven and you will lose all connection with your family. Pay me or I hurt you is blatently extortion
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2020 02:04PM by thedesertrat1.
Hmmm. So basically, "Do what the church teaches and pay up so you can be sealed to your family forever, or we take away your family when you die and you go to hell." So if I have this right, the sealing ceremony seals the couple for eternity and can only be done in the temple(meaning you have to have a recommend, I assume, which must be hard and expensive to get). Does this sealing have to be authorized before the ceremony or can you just go "do it"? And does it automatically include all the children of the marriage? Like for instance, let's say a couple has several kids, one of whom is a rebellious teenager(surely THAT'S never happened)who isn't living up to the "life". Is that teenager still sealed to the family forever? Or only faithful ones? This seems so much like a "pay for heaven" scheme.
Yes, sealings for living couples n families are scheduled ahead of time. You can pretty much show up to a temple anytime to do one for dead relatives. You must have a temple recommend to enter the temple so that means you gotta pay your tithing and not drink coffee or tea and other silly Mormon rules. If one of your kids strays from the church in this life you can still visit them in another part of heaven but they won't be with you for eternity and they can't visit you in the higher up part of heaven. You can only visit people below you, not above you if you're not in VIP heaven.
Mormonism is definitely a "pay to play" religion. Mormon mothers often blame themselves when their offspring fall away. And they take the threat of the loss of their eternal family quite seriously.
To contrast that with Catholicism, I never met a born Catholic who didn't fully expect to be with their loved ones in the afterlife no matter what (church doctrine aside, which most born-Catholics take with a huge grain of salt.) That belief in being reunited with loved ones is even baked into Catholic funeral services where the family is *assured* by the priest of being with their loved ones again, even though he knows quite well that many haven't darkened a church door in years. The attendees are often invited up for communion as well, even if the prerequisite confession is a distant memory for most. Catholic funerals are all about feeling the love.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2020 05:12PM by summer.
> As an ex-mormon, what can you nail down as the > most potent influence the mormon church and its > authorities use to "keep people in line" and how > did that affect you?
“Most potent” is difficult to nail down because there are many, shame and guilt being at the root of many of those.
A potent influence is economic. For example, if you don’t transfer to LDSinc 10% of your net gains (some report on gross) each year, from the moment your child is born, you will not be allowed to see that child’s wedding in the Temple. The Temple is for full tithe payers only.
I know a guy who took fifteen grand out of his home so that he could catch up his tithing and attend a Temple wedding. The wedding wasn’t even one of his kids’, it was for a niece he rarely saw.
Why would someone do this?
To avoid shame, guilt and being the talk of the wedding party.
If he and his wife were to not show up in the Temple, the family would feel justified to speculate as to why. Some in families can’t help but assume the worst speculation is the truest (soto voce, ‘he’s having an affair’). The guy I know was simply having a hard time and found himself a few years behind in tithe. In your words, he didn’t want his family to think he had slipped outside the lines, as being a Mormon goes. He told me it was easier this way. Fifteen grand is an expensive way to continue colouring in between the lines.
Thank you all so, so much for the answers. I have a ton of reading material to get through on these things, I see. That one post especially got me. Fifteen thousand dollars to pay in "tithes" just to attend. That is just flat-out wrong!
I was a convert to Mormonism at age 13 so I wasn't highly indocdtrinated but I will confess to being deluded. I truly believed the fairytale Mormonism taught me. I call it a fairytale because they left out LOTS of the stronger, more Utah-centric doctrines that were handed down through family rather than preached in church. But I basically bought into the idea of "one true church" and necessity of a "modern day prophet". I believed this because I had been raised to believe in the Bible but had never really studied it. So when the missionaries taught me about Mormonism I went along with their version of what the Bible taught.
I had only two members of my family who also converted to Moronism so there was not much family pressure to obey or stay in Moronism. When I learned the truths that Mormonism either covered up or white washed it was pretty easy for me to walk away.
The only thing I can think of that scared me about leaving was the loss of a few truly good friendships that meant the world to me. To this day, I have not told several of my Utah Mormon friends that I'm no longer Mormon. I would be saddened to see their crestfallen faces when they found out. However, if they do catch on to my apostasy I will not deny it. I will just be sad to know they will think less of me and more than likely drop me as their friend.
It's claims are huge - "the" one and only true church on earth which, if you follow its rules and fulfill its obligations, will land you a top position in the highest kingdom in the afterlife.
Now who does not want to be guaranteed this spot and be secure in a life after this one?
The supposed church then uses guilt and shame and more shame which will be heaped upon your head for failing to do and be all that you should be. Not easy to fail in front of those who are important to you....family, friends and community.
Yesterday I was at my grandson's home attempting to be of some help with upcoming wedding breakfast and reception plans. A neighbor stopped by loaning items for the big event. I was struck by many thoughts as the chit-chat progressed...You know, the comforting...."Just call me if I can help in any other way". And, I was reminded upon hearing these words, how comforting and friendly these words are.
My second thought was about my introduction as the grandchild's grandmother. I was given praise for raising such an outstanding daughter, his mom, who is so strong, capable and helpful in the church. The scene was one of oozing "happiness found in living the gospel," which I had, it was assumed help mastermind, by raising my child to be gospel-strong. If this person only knew the truth....I would not have rec'd any smiles nor given much eye contact at all. In fact, the conversation would have most likely ended when they realized I was a happy APOSTATE.
Part of me wanted to shout out loud and clear, revealing all.
From 1975 through 2005 (and beyond depending on one's mormon family) the church did very well to indoctrinate its youth. Lots of programs (seminary, scouting and youth interviews) to mess with people's minds.
It's crazy, but I used to quarrel with my Mom on Sundays after church. Why?
Because she would insist on shopping right after the 3 hour block. Here I had just shared a read aloud quote in priesthood concerning Kimball's edict to not shop on Sunday, and here was my convert mom filling up her cart. Lots of lessons about not making to the highest glory (celestial kingdom) because not keeping the sabbath day holy.
And then I would get called upon (the follow-up question to the previous week's lesson) and I couldn't easily lie about my family's un-mormon behavior. My Dad watched football and if the hometeachers arrived during the game, he showed them the door!
I felt grossly pinned between being honest and openly rebuked (called to repent) or lying through my teeth and believing god would strike me down. Plus, I'm a terrible liar.
Back to the youth situation of brainwashing. My two older siblings left the church in their teenage years. Yet, they think the church is great and defend the wacky teachings/beliefs. In their eyes, I'm the bad guy for leaving the church.
"I guess what I'm asking is from your perspective, what was the biggest fear you had or the biggest reservation you had about leaving and what made you personally realize that enough was enough?"
That's easy. Joseph Smith was a sexual predator. I had been preyed upon by a pedophile. Nothing could change how I felt about Joseph Smith after that revelation. If love exists, it isn't the kind that exchanges nice words, nice things, and patriarchal security for human pleasures. IT is either enduring or it doesn't exist. It is a fairytale where no endurance, trials, travails, and temptations overcome have been at play.
The façade of words over actions finally fell apart in Mormonism for me when I learned the founder was simply a very religious opportunist and knew in my heart that this theme ran deep throughout the organization he spawned.
I know you asked a question out of the heart with all sincerity and that God can respond to anything that is put before him but I am going to change your question a little so I can answer the question you should have asked. I hope you don't mind.
Yes pretty much - this! - no had any answers to real questions. They always had to be reframed into softballs already answered by church pamphlets.
Imagine if Moses went up to talk to the burning bush and was referred to pamphlets on his way out. Mormonism is basically this.
LOL I sat here for about 15 solid minutes thinking you either were an admin and were actually changing my question or that I had broken an unwritten rule of the forum. I kept glancing to see if my question had been edited so I knew where I went wrong.
The incredible irony in this statement is not lost.
Mormonism is a chain of events. You get blessed, you get baptized (at eight), you progress up organizations, you prepare for the temple, you reach eighteen, serve a mission for two years, get married for time and eternity before the age of thirty, have lots of children, get better and better callings (assignments) maybe becoming a bishop, an area leader etc.
If you don't follow this path, you are said to have failed.