So I kinda have the "Wikipedia" knowledge about tithing rules, but it's different coming from people who endured it. Someone mentioned in my last post that someone took fifteen grand out on his home to pay back tithes just to be allowed into the temple for his own child's wedding. Unreal. So they assess tithes like property taxes. 10 percent on the value of your wages, period. What are the details? Like, a church bishop or pastor (bishop is the local authority right? Unpaid and still works and all that?)sits down with you and you show him your finances? Then pay right then? Or just pay weekly? How does that work? Whoa. As I write that it sounds like a property tax..on an income! That's...that's scary. Wow. So does this local unpaid bishop(?) have to pay on his income since he's working for free?

What return, if any, comes from these payments? Do they have programs (I heard and read some about the relief society) to help you if you're down and out?

Scripturally (mormon version) you pay 10 percent on your increase.

As with all things mormon it's open to interpretation.

Most folks pay 10% on gross income and cash gifts.

Some see an increase as only take home pay and pay on that.

Some people do not pay tax on insurance pay out, annuities and social security as they taxed the cash going in.

Then there is "farmers tithe" grandpa only paid if the farm turned a profit and then only on the profit.

Each year the bishop meets with you and you declare if you paid a full tithe or not. In my time most bishops just asked and took your word. I've heard of bishops demanding to see tax forms.

If you haven't paid tithing in a long time any want to go to the temple to see a child married the bishop may demand you become current on your tithing. Then he may have pity on you and just ask you make a token effort.

As with all things mormon each case is different depending on time frame and bishop.

Not sure why you're calling it a property tax on your income. It's a religious income tax on your income. The fact that one guy borrowed against his house to come up with the money was entirely coincidental. The church couldn't care less how he came up with the money. Actually, they do get a little testy if you steal the money and donate it to them. This actually happens, and the courts have made the church give the money back to the rightful owners. This is a rare event, but it does happen now and then.

You're overthinking this. All churches in the US run on freewill donations. LDS Inc differs from most in that they tell you how much you are required to give, and they make full participation in the church (usually, this means temple privileges) contingent on you making your financial "contribution".

As far as I know, they take your word for it on whether you are paying a full tithe, unless it pretty clearly flies in the face of reality.

I've got a text-book case about ChurchCo not caring but knowing you're lying, it involved a vicious, deceitful divorce, but what the hey if a TBM lies to win a divorce against a doubter, eh?

The Mormon church functions with a lay ministry at the local and regional level. So the bishop in most cases will hold down a regular job and put in perhaps 20 hours a week into his church "calling." Higher level church positions are paid, or in church parlance given a stipend, and are exempt from tithing.

Church members can pay tithing at whatever interval suits them best, weekly, monthly, or yearly. There is a yearly ward shakedown known as "tithing settlement" that happens toward the end of each year. Some members choose instead to send their donations directly to church headquarters.

There are other church collections besides tithing such as fast offerings, missionary fund, etc. The money from fast offerings is used to provide relief for church members locally. But whether or not a member gets financial help is dependent on "bishop roulette." When the housing bubble burst in Utah some years ago, the church explicitly told its members not to look to the church for relief.

There are other financial abuses. It's not unknown for elderly members to fritter away their retirement savings on one or more church missions. And the church has been known to encourage elderly members to leave their assets to the church and not their families.

Thanks for the answers; I'm in a process of becoming educated on not simply the "letters of the law" governing mormonism but the experiences of the formerly associated. I read this story on one of the church websites that had a bishop saying something very similar to, "Even if you can't pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if you cannot afford food for your family, pay tithing". I think it was said to a family in El Salvador, not sure though. Just wanted to get a variety of personal experiences with it. I know as a kid, we had a few sermons a year about tithing in our little southern Baptist church, but I certainly don't remember it being so legalistic or regulated.

Another tithing question: if you pay tithing on money you get from investments, are you allowed to send the church a bill if your investments lose money? ;)

This is how all charitable scams work. They give you no real information as far as what they need, why god needs your money and so on. Yet, the only thing they can tell you is to pay, and you better pay!

Did Christ really command 10% of gross? No.
This is why the Church can never come out and say pay on gross it is simply not scriptural and they know this. But they want the bumbling idiot followers to pay as much as they "assume" they should pay. So they keep it vague kinda like how tips operate on room service at a hotel. You already paid a service charge and a gratuity charge and now you have a line for a tip. Guilt gives in and you pay even more. This is why the church has $100B with nothing to spend it on.

Corporations which make billions less than the church per year give 3% you can look these amounts up on the internet. How much did Goldman Sachs give last year? Now how much did the church give in the last 20 years less than the amount these corporations give per year. So it is not a matter of people being stingy. It is a man made church being stingy who are supposedly in the business of helping all of God's children.

Furthermore, look up what Jews have to say about tithing. They are the keepers of historical traditions certainly more knowledgeable than your typical Mormondumb. Jews pay tithing in different years - once for the poor, once for the priest and once for a spiritual pilgrimage to presumably Jerusalem. So we can see all these people doing good for humanity, giving money to clergy because realistically they need some money to operate the church. Most people understand that but it is the despicable greed that the Mormon Church goes about their business which is why it is a scam and should not receive any at all.

I will confine my remarks to our original question about how the Church governs tithing.

There are really only 2 principles for tithing in the LDS Church:
1) tithing is a 1/10 of your "increase;"
2) a full tithe is required to maintain a temple recommend.

Anything else is an interpretation of each member in consultation with their ward bishop.

Each member self-declares if their donations (as tithing) represent a tenth of their "increase." No bishop should demand evidence of income. But that doesn't mean that some bishops could demand to audit your tithing: it is for the individual member to push such a bishop back.

Even if a bishop suspects that a member's tithing is less than it should be (say if he employs you?), he should accept a member's declaration. Again, I say tithing should be between a member and the Lord: but some bishops believe they are the 'sin cop' in their ward.

What is your "increase?" For some members this is gross income (before taxes); others will pay on the net (for "net blessings," I am told).

How many pay tithing on employment benefits? One of my employers would send a statement of the cost of all my allocated benefits. I would hide the statement because my wife would feel obligated to pay tithing on what amounted to another ~50% of our income.

We bought a business from the son of our Stake patriarch. My wife proudly declared to his mother, "We will pay our tithing first!" The older lady replied, "Unless you pay your employees, your suppliers, banks and the government first you won't have a business."

When I was in business for myself I learned that my mortgage and our vehicles became a "business expense." Our tithing (and taxes) were much less than when we were working for somebody else.

How do you reconcile investment gains and losses? A bishop advised me that an investment could be made with funds before tithing. Whatever the result is when you cash out or take a pension then tithing applies on the final balance. Seemed good enough for me. My wife groaned audibly when I told her that I had not paid tithing on any of our investments when she wanted to cash them in after our divorce.

If insurance represents compensation for a loss, then there is no "increase."

Some members take calculating their "increase" literally. A sister brought vegetables into the clerk's office as her tithing. The Church now discourages tithes in kind. I heard a pacifist member who paid tithing in hundreds of pounds of carrots brought about this policy.

Finally, there are two groups that are exceptions to all these tithing rules:

1. life appointed General Authorities (who live the Law of Consecration); and,
2. employees of the LDS Church.

LDS Church employees must pay a full tithing because the must have a temple recommend to keep their position with the Church. Moreover, the Church knows exactly what your tithing should be (and they do check that your tithing is on your gross income).

When I was a clerk we had a break in at the clerk's office. The thief obviously had keys because nothing was tampered with to gain entry. Strange but nothing was taken except some financial records. The next week who should appear but a Brother who was employed with the Church insisting that his tithing report wasn't accurate. And wouldn't you know it the disputed donations were from the year with the missing financial records.

"Hmmm," said I. "Hmmm," agreed the Stake clerk. But without records who can dispute. "The Lord knows," said the Stake clerk.

A new stake president called one of his cronies to be the new a-hole bishop. For several years, he openly requested tax returns to be presented when showing up for settlement. Yes, some members went straight to the stake prez to protest only to be appalled that the SP supported his beloved bishop.

Only one time was a tithing donation returned to me. I had worked 3 days for a sister in the ward for doing yard work and landscaping. She sucked me into the job by offering to pay 6 dollars an hour (min wage was 3 at the time), but then deducted for absurd things. She charged me for ice water and lemonade (and docked an hours pay for a 10 minute swim at her lakeside property~ her insistence to cool off on a summer day). Anyways, the petty lady handed the bishop a note that I owed the lord. So I complied and put a 5 dollar bill in. She owed me 60, but paid 45.

So the bishop called me into his office and asked me if I was trying to save $ to serve a mission (he knew because he helped me send in my application). So he opened my envelope and handed the bill back. Then he tore up the envelope and slip. I think he was annoyed with the busy-body sister.

Three things:

(1)In the New Testament, the commandment of tithing is “disannulled” Hebrews 7:18.
If one reads the whole of Hebrews, chapter 7, look at the Greek words for “law” and “commandment.”
The chapter basically says this (“paraphrasing”):

“Melchizedek is greater than Abraham and Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek.”

“Christ is greater than Melchizedek, and the commandment of tithing is abrogated because the law and commandments are weak and ineffectual compared to the grace through Christ.”

Some churches have actually read Hebrews 7, and they raise money through offerings.
Scholars are not certain whether St. Paul wrote Hebrews.
But Ephesians 2:15, attributed to St. Paul, mentions how wonderful it is that enmity between Christian Jew and Christian Gentile, is entirely removed in Christ where the old laws and ordinances are done away in lieu of Grace!

(2)D&C 119 states plainly, tithing is one-tenth of your interest annually. “Interest” in the 1828 dictionary meant “surplus.” You will also find “surplus” in D&C 119.

(3)The Joseph Smith Translation (JST) bible tells the story of Abram & Melchizedek, and that Abram paid Melchizedek tithes “more than that which he had need.” That means surplus. This passage is or used to be in the Quad where selections of the JST are offered.

You may find an essay on tithing under the Sarony name in mormonthink. The essay looks at several Gen. Conf. Talks, beginning with Jeffrey Holland (and the “job” he did on a pamphlet “The Lord’s Tenth” written by James E Talmadge.)
Among the several speeches, there is even a progression toward D&C 119, but I am not certain any of them are faithful to the text.

This is how I paid tithing for years. No problems. I think the bishop knew I would stop altogether if he dared complain about me giving away hard earned money.

I paid every December. That's when the bonus check came, and I paid out of that.

During the year I kept a record of ALL money spent that benefited the church. That included mileage on vehicles (20 miles each way). Supplies for any projects, dinners, YW, Scouts primary, etc. Any costs for mileage for scout camps, girls camp etc. If hubby took time off work for a church or scout thing, that was added up. I included church clothes, temple clothes and under wear. These were mandatory items required by church. I also kept track of every penny spent for long distance overnight temple trips that required hotel, eat out, gas, mileage, time off work.

I would deduct all of these costs from out of the 10% tithing bill. It usually cut the bill by about half.

I was cocked and ready if anyone dared to give me shit about any of it. Nobody ever questioned.

Any way you look at it, it still cost 10% of our income, and even worse about 30% of our free time. Maybe more.

I'm just glad I left right before my husband retired. Paying the church on that retirement pay out would have made me sick. I don't think we could have done it. We would have divided in between our kids first.

Not being emotionally coerced and held up by the Mormon church is the biggest blessing ever. Its radically changed my life in ways I never imagined. Life is good.

The Mormon church needs me, I do not need them. The truth has set me free, and now I can afford a much nicer vacation.

Good for you. Ten percent is a lot of money. For many individuals and families, it represents a good chunk of their money beyond housing costs and bills. And for what? So the Mormon church can slap up yet another temple? So that Nelson and his party can go to Africa and beg yet more money off of desperately poor people? So that the rich people at the head of the church can get even richer?

As you point out, most members dig deep into their pockets (beyond the tithing) to pay for church activities and supplies. I've never seen a church ask for so much money, and do so little for members (or so little charity work) in return.

At some point I decided that I didn't care if I had a temple recommend or not. I would live a contented life and the Church and Sister Idleswell could accept me for me or not but I wouldn't care either way.

I relieved much of our tensions over finances. My wife lived her life "guided by the Spirit." In practical terms this means that if she gets a thought to do something, she feels compelled to act on it unless it directly contradicts a commandment. So I would come home to see that my wife had drained our account where I kept money for property taxes, auto insurance, etc. to buy something she felt entitled to have. When I was paying tithing I would be responsible for scrambling to replace that money, but no more.

I told my wife that we would pay tithing on a "best effort" basis. When our major bills were paid we would pay tithing from whatever was left.

So when my wife gave our son 3 times our monthly tithing to buy drugs (not medicine) we didn't pay tithing. She feared that our son would rob members' homes.

I wonder what we didn't have because of tithing? We vacationed less. We never ate in restaurants. Our wardrobes weren't as big as others. We lived in neighbourhoods with lower cost housing. We lived "too close to the Indian reservation" according to a Branch President.

I suspect that if we didn't pay tithing, our consumerism would have been higher.