I have to say that I've never met an atheist (even of the more militant variety) who seemed to be personally offended by anyone's religious belief.

But I HAVE met plenty of christians who get really worked up if they find out a person is an atheist, agnostic, or even possess a fuzzy, new-agey concept of "god".

Bottom line, atheism doesn't seek to convert others. (You disagree? PROVE otherwise!) Many christians feel they *must* convert others.

In the interest of full disclosure, I consider myself an agnostic/Deist, and don't have a dog in this fight.

Edited to correct spelling.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2010 12:24PM by helamonster.

Most of the time, I just keep my mouth shut. However, there are also plenty of times when I am extremely "blasphemous" to either offend people that are attacking my atheism, or just to poke fun.

I'm not sure if that's the same thing as "trying to convert" anyone or not.

I'm ok if other people have faith, but it does bother me when people confuse faith with fact. And it happens all the time. That's usually when I try to point out the difference between the two.

But I also like making jokes, and if "believers" can't see the humor in their own beliefs then whatever I guess.

by believers, but some of them can be pretty blunt in their lack of respect toward believers. Take Richard Dawkins: He's not pulling any punches when he takes a swipe at religion. I can imagine he's offended plenty of religious people. My reaction to him and those like him is that it feels really good to hear someone say it like it is. But maybe he could say it a little nicer so it won't turn into a brawl.

I'm in the atheist camp myself. If someone wants to believe, that's fine with me as long as they don't try to shove their beliefs on me, put it into law, or sneak religion into the schools.

If someone is making incredibly stupid choices, I see no reason why I should have to show respect for those incredibly stupid choices. Yes, I can respect their RIGHT to make stupid choices, I do not have to show respect for any particular stupid choice.

It's about showing basic respect for people. Choices, obviously, are not beings that can be offended if you're rude to them, so it's rather absurd to speak of showing respect for choices.

Then I choose to be rude to whomever I want and by your definition, YOU MUST RESPECT THAT CHOICE.

Now are you going to respect my choice to be rude?

Honestly, your post didn't really make sense, respect is just about the offense someone may or may not take. Respect, as I use it means to hold in high regard. Using that definition, then yes, it is possible to talk about decisions in terms of respect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2010 04:58PM by MJ.

I'm somewhere in the agnostic camp. My feelings have always been--even when TBM--that my beliefs are very individual and personal. I learned early on that I viewed even mormonism uniquely. It bothered me as a mormon and now when people think I need to believe like they do.

Whatever anyone else says--I did come here a believer in Christianity--but watching the Christians try to shove their beliefs down everyone's throats on here is what turned me off to the bible and to Christianity.

a religion, or wish me a Merry Christmas. I know how to respond in kind politely.

I am certainly offended by religious leaders who try to shove it down my throat.

On a personal level, I even enjoy the diversity of religions when I bump into them.

On a social/political level, I'm really unhappy with religions. I think that religionists feel the same way about me at that level.

Heresy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> a religion, or wish me a Merry Christmas. I know
> how to respond in kind politely.
>

When someone wishes me "Merry Christmas" I reply "Happy Solstice" then I see how much they respect me and my beliefs.

I liked your breakout. Good articulation of how I feel because it does vary from differing contexts.

But I AM bothered by those who just assume that everyone believes. Prayer at public events, forwarding religious emails, etc.

I am also quite bothered by people who try to shove it down your throat, like the little girl at my daughter's public elementary school who brought christian dvd's to hand out. I complained to the school, who said she had a right to do it. So I asked "So I would have a right to distribute occult material??"

I am bothered by people who claim our nation is based on christian beliefs and the tradition, and those who get upset
because some of us are against prayer at graduation, etc. Um, didn't people leave England to come here to avoid religious persecution?

THEY/WE did leave(England) in part due to religious enforcement policies.... but in the later exodi to the new world there came a whole bunch of "puritans".... and they did come to the U.S. in droves...so like it or not..... many of the people here were Christians... so it may be somewhat accurate to say this country was started by Christians.... but the founding fathers wanted no part of forced religion so..there is the constitution...that guarantees our freedom of religion and freedom FROM religion!! :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2010 12:53PM by bignevermo.

I guess that is what I meant to say- the founding fathers
created the whole separation of church and state thing....!

I am offended when they try to use their belief in a superstition to attack me. I think I am quite justified in taking such offense.

i agree MJ!!! :)

What is"a fuzzy new-aged concept of God"? I only ask this question because I call myself an agnostic, but think I may believe in some type of higher power. I'm still trying to put a label on what it is I believe so maybe if I knew what that fuzzy concept was, it may just be how I feel. Does that make any sense at all? As for the original post, I do believe that atheists are not offended at belief, but Christians are offended by disbelief. I say live and let live, believe or not and let believe or not.

You are describing what is usually just called Deism. You believe in a deity, but don't necessarily want to define it any religious term--usually it's only defined in very personal terms.

A lot of people are describing themselves that way. My wife is one of them. She believes in a higher power, but that's about it. She's not quite an agnostic, but definitely not "Christian."

Thanks for your input. I think you hit it right on the head for me. I don't want to have to define my belief.

And even though I am an atheist, don't let anyone give you crap for not "defining" your belief. There is nothing wrong with not knowing and being able to change your mind given new evidence.

Your belief without dogma actually helps make this world a better place a lot more than most organized religions can realistically show.

Atheists call me a dumb deluded sheep.

Christians call me a hell-bound sinning harlot.

What am I, anyway?

I don't know, but what I DO know is if there is a heaven, and if there are no dogs in heaven, then I want to go wherever they go.

doxi@dontlabelme.com

doxie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Atheists call me a dumb deluded sheep.
>
> Christians call me a hell-bound sinning harlot.
>
> What am I, anyway?

Hi Doxie,

this reminded me of one of my favourite songs;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMwGqfnA19A

Full Disclosure, I am an Agnostic Atheist.... I do not believe in any deity, per se, but am open to the concept that there may have been a 'prime cause intelligence' for the universe.
Rather than write that out, each time, I find it easier to describe myself as 'Atheist'

I work with a catholic girl, a Muslim lady and a Sikh Guy... and probably a whole load of Christians who are not so easily recognisable.... We rarely mention religion, at work, although we have chatted enough for them to laugh at the idea of me as a priest, and I know my colleagues are all on the 'liberal' side of their religion.

I am not offended by their beliefs and - although they know I am Atheist - I would never dream of trying to de-convert them.

Maybe I come across as a bit militant.....I feel this is the proper place to address religious foolery. It is a forum based around a shared (usually bad) experience of an extreme religion.
If you can't be forthright about the shaky basis of the Christian mythos (and other silly religions) here, then where can it be addressed?



[edit @ Doxie] I'd rather have a harlot than a sheep



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2010 01:30PM by onceanelder.

Some beliefs are offensive to me. More so Mormon beliefs:
-tithing on gross...well just tithing, period. and especially lying to me that it was for "the poor" when it's really to line the pockets of lazy, arrogant, religious people
-3 degrees of glory, the idea that I will be assigned a "place" in the afterlife based on whether I paid tithing and knew secret handshakes
-polygamy
-there are others that you may already know about.

Other beliefs that are offensive are those taught and perpetrated by so-called fundamentalist Muslims:
- "honor killings"
- kill the infidels
- most of their theocracy, it seems to me, is about killing

some Christian beliefs, fundamental and mainstream, are offensive in its simple minded arrogance
-prayer in public places
-you're broken and need Jesus in your life
-the dire need to testify to me, even after I've already told them I used to be religious (like I was stupid, deaf, or forgetful)
-we're oh-so-righteous and special, you can't bear it

Here's a special one:
"Oh, you're not really atheist, I don't think you really are." Somehow they think if they used their special incantation on me, like they do in their churches, it will magically snap me out of my delusion of disbelief. It's an ironic slap in the face.

I have a knee-jerk reaction to suggestions of praying over me, or just "I'll pray for you", and "you don't have no idea, you don't haven't really understood God or Jesus". So, yes, some atheists are offended by religious beliefs.

I must admit to enjoying some of the dust-ups between believers and non-believers. I find it refreshing in a society where most people you meet subscribe to one of the popular brands of religion - or even one of the kookier sorts.

I've spent most of my adult life keeping my mouth shut around believers, hiding my opinions like an embarrassing social disease. How can you not have a God?!?!?!?

And there is some sort of unspoken feeling that you shouldn't say anything that might upset a believer - tip-toeing around them as if their beliefs are made out of very fragile glass.

So yeah, I enjoy the freedom to express myself - but hope I dont get so energized that I use ad-hominen remarks or flame anybody.

Just another reason that I enjoy this board.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2010 01:55PM by sisterexmo.

Sister Exmo - I am totally with you there. This is where you can talk freely (and I don't know how long that will last). A few years ago I was Christian. Before that, Mormon. Before that, Catholic. And after Mormonism I tried on a variety of churches.

I am not Christian now because I woke up from the "God Delusion" and realized that the religulous hucksters come in all flavors. It's not just the Mormons that are selling plastic cards as if you could swipe or handshake yourself into prison, it's all the narrow-eyed, scheming control freaks who discovered people will pay for guilt relief, and pay even more for a pass to "heaven."

I held onto Christianity after leaving Mormonism because I felt like I didn't want any more of my "self" taken away. They took my time, my money, and my sense of selfworth as a woman. I wanted to at least restore who I was, and to me at the time, I thought that was Catholicism.

But the critical thinking that got me out of Mormonism is a switch which cannot be turned off, so one morning I woke up, looked at the crucifix and said out loud "I don't believe that a loving God would require torture and death to pay for sins which could be forgiven freely." A picture of pyramids with blood flowing down the sides came to mind. Then this thought "Eat my body in remembrance of me". Noooooo, I don't think cannibalism is a value I share under any circumstances.

These are my beliefs and I am certain they offend some people reading this right now. Out of respect (ok, pity) for those who do believe Jesus died for our sins, I don't put my beliefs out there. They do, however, and I am not offended because I know that they are completely desensitized to the horror of having a corpse hanging on their wall. These are people who wouldn't let their kids see a violent movie, yet they will march them through the Stations of the Cross, complete with scourging and gore, crown of thorns and nails through the hands.

Yes, they can be annoying and patronizing and dismissive, but they could wake up to the fact that "becoming Christlike" in your passivity could lead to a life of victimhood...which some people balance by becoming aggressive missionaries.

When I was Christian I used to argue that Christian language should be used when talking to people thinking of leaving Mormonism. I still feel that way. If you want good communication, you speak the language your listener speaks, right? If you ask a Mormon if Jesus is more important than Joseph Smith, they will likely say yes. There's your opportunity to show them that the Mormon church disregards the teachings of Jesus if a modern prophet says otherwise. They will think about that. I know I never intended to leave the teachings of Jesus, but I have to say that I am very grateful for the peaceful life I lead as an agnostic, a simple fellow traveler on the spiritual path that everyone else is on.

The mental health people say that a healthy attitude is that one is a man among men, or a woman among women as the case may be. Eliminating the gradiosity involved with having "found the gospel" or "having more light" is a step towards mental health and a more balanced life.

Thanks for this interesting thread.

When I die if Jesus is there I will just ask to go somewhere else, I did not like the way he treated me down here, and I will also let it be known that I'm not interested in passing any test, and I just wanna go somewhere where a father really is concerned about his children, helps them, loves them, and doesn't Glory in testing them. He can take the silent treatment and this cruel testing idea and it all were the sun doesn't shine. He really needs some classes in parenting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2010 03:12PM by get her done.

Particularly aggresive ignorance.

As an atheist, I have found that it's hard to find something critical to say about Christianity without offending a Christian. You can hardly question WHY they believe some of the absurd things without being blamed for persecuting someone. I have heard so many creative (nice and not so nice) ways that people ask me to STFU about religion, and mostly the Mormon religion. It's hard to say ANYthing without being called offensive, cynical, or rude.

IMO, there's nothing you can do about it. I, for one, don't plan on keeping my mouth shut just because it might offend someone. As long as I don't use ad hominem attacks or personally attack someone, then I don't feel bad about anything I say. It's my anger about Mormonism that drives me to DO something about it, so they can call me cynical all they want.

As an atheist I am more offended by religious leaders. They're the ones lying and causing problems-- most members are just doing what they say.

I was actually "converted" to atheism from agnosticism by a very loud and active atheist and a physics professor who was rather vulgar against religion.

For example:

http://www.beerchurch.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1214

I was instantly converted!

Timothy