Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: Concerned ( )
Date: June 25, 2020 09:51PM

I think the church is going to have to change the whiteness part of their scriptures and doctrines. I can see Dusty Rusty getting a memo saying that God understands the time and changes need to be made. That certainly would undermine that doctrine that Mormon prophets speak the word of God like they sing in primary. It would mean that what was taught in the past was not truth.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Zeeeeezrom ( )
Date: June 25, 2020 10:24PM

No such thing as “White privilege.” Do you seriously think refugees from the former Yugoslavia are privileged? People fail to understand that “White” is not one single demographic (just like Hispanic or Asian) and assuming that someone has some kind of innate privilege or virtue simply because of his or her skin color is myopic at best and frankly bigoted at worst.

That said, I do agree with the main point of your post that the church leadership will indeed need to adapt to the times and (at the very least superficially) better reflect the cultural and ethnic composition of the lay membership in 2020, not 1920

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: June 26, 2020 01:06AM

Zeeeeezrom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No such thing as “White privilege.”

Not true. If you can go shopping late at night, or take a walk (or a jog) down the street without thinking of the color of your skin and the necessity to "be careful," you are a beneficiary of white privilege.


> Do you seriously think refugees from the former
> Yugoslavia are privileged?

Yes, of course they are privileged--UNLESS they have dark/darker skin or other, "minority" ethnic features (which I assume some members of Yugoslavian ethnic minorities do have).

EDITED TO ADD: I was involved elsewhere when I wrote this post, and I "knew" what I meant (in a general, learned it once a LONG time ago kind of way!), but I was not able to properly look it up. Here is the best source I can find for what I was trying to say:
https://www.aaihs.org/mapping-blackness-in-yugoslavia-and-post-yugoslav-space/


> People fail to understand that “White” is not one single
> demographic (just like Hispanic or Asian) and
> assuming that someone has some kind of innate
> privilege or virtue simply because of his or her
> skin color is myopic at best and frankly bigoted
> at worst.

EVERYONE in North America knows that "white is not one single demographic." "White" Americans come from a global potpourri of different ethnicities and nationalities (when I was growing up, the majority answer to "what are you" [ancestrally] was "Heinz 57," referring to the disparate, and very well-advertised, group of food products manufactured by Heinz. In the United States, if you "look white," you [effectively] ARE (at least in most cases) "white" so far as social and formerly-legal racial discrimination goes.

National, best-selling books used to be written about people whose actual ancestral background was at odds with their "white" appearance....and this often led to horrifying real life human tragedies when the "truth" was somehow revealed (example: a visibly white woman gives birth to a visibly "Black" child, which--in those days when miscegenation was illegal and the "one drop" rule reigned--effectively ended her marriage, as well as her right to live in the house, and the neighborhood, of her choice).


> That said, I do agree with the main point of your
> post that the church leadership will indeed need
> to adapt to the times and (at the very least
> superficially) better reflect the cultural and
> ethnic composition of the lay membership in 2020,
> not 1920

On this point, I agree with you.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2020 03:02AM by Tevai.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 26, 2020 02:37AM

> > Do you seriously think refugees from the former
> > Yugoslavia are privileged?
>
> Yes, of course they are privileged--UNLESS they
> have dark/darker skin or other, "minority" ethnic
> features (which I assume some members of
> Yugoslavian ethnic minorities do have).

The Romani, historically, joined increasingly by small numbers of refugees from other countries.




ETA: I dug around a bit and found out more details about the Romani in the former Yugoslavia. I presume there's no need to explain that the Romani/Roma/gypsies were persecuted aggressively since their arrival in Southeastern Europe a millennium ago. The most spectacular instance was the Nazi's extermination of two million of them in the Second World War but there have been nasty governmental actions against them throughout Europe even as late as the 1980s.

As for their presence in the former Yugoslavia, they comprise 10% or more of the populations of Macedonia, Serbia, and Slovenia and almost as much in Bosnia and Croatia. So yes, there are roughly as many dark-skinned victims of persecution in what used to be Yugoslavia as there are African Americans in the United States. Along with smatterings of Arab, Afghan, and other Muslim refugees, this comprises a significant dark-skinned underclass and conversely establishes the existence of "white privilege" for the dominant social classes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2020 05:36AM by Lot's Wife.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tuamante ( )
Date: June 26, 2020 08:47AM

This doesn't reflect modern Balkan history. The place has been the bloodbath of modern Europe for over a century (longer if you factor in the Greek Wars of Independence). The First World War came out of this region. Even though the Serbians are blamed for starting it, they took the highest casualty rate percentage-wise of any European nation.

Former Yugoslavia has seen some of the worst genocides of the past thirty years, with the possible exception of Rwanda. NATO carved Kosovo and Montenegro out of the kingdom in more recent times, again resulting in bloody wars.

The whole place is still a gun powder barrel waiting to go off. In some places in the Former Yugoslavia, especially Bosnia and Croatia, there are huge minefields which cover maybe as much as 20% of the land area, maybe more.

Because of this, a lot of refugees pass over the area. Some stay in Greece or Turkey, or they head straight to Austria.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 26, 2020 02:17PM

Like clockwork, Jordan. What you write is true but irrelevant. The question was not about modern Balkan history but rather the presence of race-based discrimination.

Other than being off topic, though, you sound wise so you have achieved your objective.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Zeeeeezrom ( )
Date: June 26, 2020 07:38AM

>Not true. If you can go shopping late at night, or
>take a walk (or a jog) down the street without thinking
>of the color of your skin and the necessity to "be careful,"
>you are a beneficiary of white privilege.

This example has more to do with the specific neighborhood than the color of one’s skin. A White woman (or man) walking alone in a predominantly Black neighborhood at night may feel just as unsafe. This pervasive victim mentality in certain individuals/groups (“I’m being persecuted!”) is not proof of “systematic racism.” America is not more racist today than it was during Jim Crow.

>Yes, of course they are privileged--UNLESS they
>have dark/darker skin or other, "minority" ethnic
>features (which I assume some members of Yugoslavian
>ethnic minorities do have).

You’ve missed my point entirely. Does a Serbian family who just arrived to the US without speaking a word of English, all their worldly possessions in two suitcases, and $100 dollars in their pockets have “White privilege?” Please explain to me what advantage they have over someone who has lived in the US their whole life for generations with full access to education and employment, who happens to have a different skin color?

I’m tired of this “White privilege” trope parroted by the media. White people can do nothing right according to the radical left. They want to help minorities? “White savior complex!” They don’t want to help minorities? “Racist!” They move in to a poor neighbourhood? “Gentrification!” They move out? “White flight!” They participate in cultural exchanges? “Appropriation?” They keep The themselves? “Xenophobia!” The list goes on.


Assuming anything about anyone based solely on their racial features is by definition racist. Assuming that White folks only got ahead because of their race is wrong, just as assuming that Black folks can’t get ahead because of their race is also wrong.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Anziano Young ( )
Date: June 26, 2020 03:18PM

is "systemic", not "systematic".

Systemic != systematic

"Systematic" means: done in an organized or regular manner.

"Systemic" means: existing as an integral or underlying feature of a system.

The US is riddled with systemic racism, and it is sometimes implemented systematically.

To borrow your example of a Serbian family arriving in America: an employer denying them jobs because they don't speak English may reflect unjust prejudice against them but just as easily may reflect only a practical consideration (i.e. that the employer needs an employee who speaks English in order to communicate with customers). Furthermore, the Serbian immigrants can LEARN English and change their condition.

Now compare that to an employer who denies a black person a job because of conscious or unconscious racism (i.e. "I need someone articulate/relatable to interact with my customers"). That is only ascribable to racism and the black person CANNOT CHANGE THEIR CONDITION. This inability to change one's skin color is one of the reasons why race is a protected class in American anti-discrimination law and, for example, language is not.

Acknowledging the systemic racism active in America does not minimize the travails of immigrant families or poor or uneducated whites; it's the realization that if those people are also not white they will face even more hardships than they would otherwise.

This concept isn't very hard to grasp.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Zeeeeezrom ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 11:03AM

Name me ONE racist law. Name me ONE racist law that prevents people of color from getting ahead in life. Pro tip: you can’t. Not without performing Olympic medal-worthy mental gymnastics.

The fact is, every single individual is responsible for his or her destiny. The notion that you can’t get ahead because an ancestor you never met was brought over in a slave ship 300 years ago from a continent you’ve never been to is frankly laughable.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 11:39AM

Currently there are probably no written racist law, but the existence of personal unwritten racist laws is beyond doubt.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Zeeeeezrom ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 01:36PM

What on earth is a “personal unwritten racist law”? Genuinely curious. If you’re suggesting that there are some racist dudes out there, sure. But “personal unwritten racist laws”? Lol.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 02:23PM

How many people in ’personal’?

What percentage of American White males between the ages of 18 & 65 have ’personal laws’ that are racist?

What percentage is acceptable?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Zeeeeezrom ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 06:27PM

I don’t even know what you’re even talking about anymore. But I’m sure what you wrote made a lot of sense in your mind. LOL!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 07:09PM

> I don’t even know what you’re even talking
> about anymore.

Sometimes it's better to stay silent and let people question your intelligence than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2020 07:11PM by Lot's Wife.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Zeeeeezrom ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 07:28PM

Not being able to understand these unintelligible ramblings makes me an idiot? God I hate arguing with women.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 07:31PM

I suspect you rarely get the chance.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: June 28, 2020 01:16PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I suspect you rarely get the chance.


Hahahahahhaahhahahahahahahahaha. I love you Lot's Wife.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: June 26, 2020 03:40PM

Zeeeeezrom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You’ve missed my point entirely. Does a Serbian
> family who just arrived to the US without speaking
> a word of English, all their worldly possessions
> in two suitcases, and $100 dollars in their
> pockets have “White privilege?” Please explain
> to me what advantage they have over someone who
> has lived in the US their whole life for
> generations with full access to education and
> employment, who happens to have a different skin
> color?

Absolutely: that Serbian family does indeed possess "white privilege," and because of that white privilege, they are unlikely to attract the attention of passing police (either on foot police, or in a patrol car police), and are unlikely to have their apartment door bashed in, or to be shot while they are asleep, or are walking on whatever is their own front yard. This is one of the important points: a newly-arrived family of Serbian immigrants is much safer than a huge population of Americans whose American ancestors arrived, in what is now this country, five centuries ago.


> Assuming anything about anyone based solely on
> their racial features is by definition racist.

The word "anything" is misleading. Advertisers and cosmetic manufacturers can (and do!) "assume" a great deal about their specific market segments based solely on race: hair products, "color" cosmetics like lipstick, etc. Whether thinking processes or conclusions are racist or not depends on a variety of factors, some of which are valid--and some of which are, quite often, NOT valid.

> Assuming that White folks only got ahead because
> of their race is wrong....

No one has said this, it is YOUR [invalid] perception.

>....just as assuming that Black folks can’t get ahead because of their race is also wrong.

You seem weirdly oblivious of the fact that Black Americans have been the targets of legal (written down in the law codes) discrimination, plus HUGE social prejudice, ever since they were forcibly transported to this continent as slaves, who have been the targets of tremendous prejudice for practically all of that time, most especially including their educations in very often sub-standard schools, with old, sub-standard textbooks and other learning materials, from their first day of school on.

How you can ignore the plain facts of both legal and extra-legal discrimination and prejudice in American history is incomprehensible to me (but I am the offspring of very highly-prejudiced maternal relatives, Depression-era transplants originally from some of the most racially prejudiced areas of the USA, who actually--and with great, self-congratulatory pride and enthusiasm--actively both initiated, and participated in, these kinds of racist activities--and thought themselves highly patriotic for doing so....so I was forced to deal with these kinds of malevolent attitudes since my literal birth).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2020 03:45PM by Tevai.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: pearlyeverlasting ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 12:13PM

I cannot shop anywhere late at night, or walk a street without being fearful. I'm about as white as you can get. Even my hair is white.

I'm female. I would NEVER walk alone in a parking lot after dark. I used to work at a mall. The women employees were all walked or driven to their cars by security because there were so many rapes and assaults. It was the same when I worked downtown.

I lived in Portland at the time. That was 30 years ago.

I have a permit to carry. If I do have to go somewhere that concerns me, you can bet I have a loaded pistol with me.

My husband looks Hispanic. He never thinks twice about running to the grocery store after dark. He has never had to deal with the fear of being raped or assaulted by someone bigger and stronger than him.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Mountain Meadows Memories ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 01:15PM

I'm white and male and there are certain streets and areas I will not visit in my town at night. Nothing to do with black people - the trouble I have had is off other whites.

But this idea that only whites are racist is trash. Jamaicans and Haitians in the USA find it hard to blend in unless they start to dress like African Americans and speak like them.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: June 26, 2020 02:25AM

Have there been any deaths in recent months of white people as a result of simply jogging or walking down the street? For black people you've got Ahmaud Arberry in Georgia, and also 23 year old Elijah McClain in Aurora, Colorado, who died in police custody after someone reported him for being "suspicious" by walking home from a convenience store.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: pearlyeverlasting ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 06:18PM

Google Victoria Sims.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 09:17PM

This post expresses white privilege perfectly.

There were TWO dead women in the murderer's home. One was Victoria Sims, the other was Oluwatoyin Salau. And you cite this as an example of black-on-white violence.

Is Salau invisible to you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2020 10:27PM by Lot's Wife.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: frankie ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 10:49PM

I agree with you zeeeezrom, there is no such thing as white privilege

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 11:12PM

Thank you, Karen!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: June 26, 2020 02:13AM

There would be a precedent for it. The introduction to the BoM has already been changed several times. The temple ceremony has undergone significant changes. All the church president would have to do is to call it revelation.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: June 26, 2020 05:01AM

The Church has already been working on removing the "white is good" meme from their culture.

The infamous "white and delightsome" scripture in the BoM has been reworded. You hardly ever hear the word "Lamanite" anymore, especially not over the pulpit at General Conference. The BoA is never mentioned over the pulpit at GC either.

After a false start in the 1990s, the nickname Mormon has been banished. Looks like they intend to carry through with it this time, however painful the process is from a PR perspective. The BoM is irretrievably racist, and they will have to distance themselves from it at some point. That is simply impossible if you are known as the Mormon Church, so the name simply MUST go.


They are well aware they have a problem.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: June 26, 2020 08:22AM

I think the church’s real problem is its ultra conservatism, which has all but driven out any political diversity. Not only does that lock in a culture of privilege, it increases the institutional fragility that Jonathan Haidt warns about.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: JoeSmith666 ( )
Date: June 26, 2020 10:00AM

"Not true. If you can go shopping late at night, or take a walk (or a jog) down the street without thinking of the color of your skin and the necessity to "be careful," you are a beneficiary of white privilege."

In so many Cities and neighborhoods Blacks do exactly this. If you are "white" you are dead meat but they are fine.

It happens everywhere. Try being any other color and walking the back streets in Manila - or Mexico City - or Casablanca. It is the same.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: June 26, 2020 09:38PM

JoeSmith666 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Not true. If you can go shopping late at night,
> or take a walk (or a jog) down the street without
> thinking of the color of your skin and the
> necessity to "be careful," you are a beneficiary
> of white privilege."
>
> In so many Cities and neighborhoods Blacks do
> exactly this. If you are "white" you are dead meat
> but they are fine.
>
> It happens everywhere. Try being any other color
> and walking the back streets in Manila - or Mexico
> City - or Casablanca. It is the same.

On rereading, I obviously did not make it clear that I was referring to police actions (or situations where someone calls the police because they think a totally innocent person is suspect due to that person's race).

I have been in Colombia (which is an extremely difficult country), and in South Africa (where, because it was my first day driving on the left, I missed the correct on-ramp to the N1 freeway)....and I blundered my way into a township (where I most definitely should not have been)....where my life was saved by a sangoma (African folk doctor), to whom I am enormously deeply grateful. I live today because of that man and the decision he made to save my life.

I [usually] know enough to stay out of dangerous places which are dangerous because of ordinary, everyday circumstances, but throughout North America I, personally, have never encountered a situation where my life was in danger because of my race, due to police actions.

In contrast, in the United States, Black Americans have to be constantly on alert because of exactly that (being unjustifiably accused/attacked/jailed/murdered by local police due to their race), most every day of their lives--and this is a fact in far too many American places.

It was THIS (police actions, or bystanders calling the police) I was referring to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2020 09:42PM by Tevai.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 04:09PM

I’ve been in my typical quiet suburban neighborhood for 8 years and darned if I can remember seeing a patrol car cruise by. I’ve also lived in neighborhoods where the police were constantly driving by. Guess which one has more black residents.

Jim Crow never went away, they just gerrymandered the laws to criminalize black culture in order to justify keeping the same old prejudices. That’s why the police mainly function as a gang of armed white supremacists. They might as well be wearing white hoods. Imagine having to live with that continuous presence in your own neighborhood.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 03:11PM

If your first thought is about getting a ticket or wondering about where your insurance card or registration is instead of thinking about being shot and killed, that's privilege. In other words, normality. A normal existence without fear of losing your life when interacting with law enforcement.


Here is another very well known example. Start looking for an apartment or flat over the phone and check for vacancies. Now call back later to the same places but tell them your name is Jamal or Lakesha and see what happens.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2020 03:13PM by anybody.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 04:30PM

This clearly varies (though probably only in intensity) depending on the society that you live in.

In the US, the list of things "done while black" which could risk someone's life is horrifyingly long.

In France, there is prejudice and the police certainly don't treat my (French) black friends as well as they treat me (a foreigner) , but it's not usually life-threatening. Our police do kill a small number of people every year, but they're pretty colour-blind about it. I think this is probably down to the generally lower level of violence in France than in the US - and the relative absence of guns.

Your second example, Anybody, would be exactly the same in France. It's proven by studies every year that it's harder to get a job or rent property if you have (in France's case) a North African or African sounding name.

Have a great weekend all, despite this appalling world.

As the song goes, "...Things can only get better !"

Tom in Paris



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2020 04:40PM by Soft Machine.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 04:41PM

I just want to say that I love your judgment and empathy. You are a fine man.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 04:53PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 06:43PM

Hmm, I thought this discussion would have died down yesterday, but apparently the Zee has a severe case of White Grievance, and is not going to concede an inch. Or even a centimeter.

Funny, I went to a destination wedding in Detroit three years ago. Three days, had a delightful time. We walked to places within three miles of downtown, Ubered to various museums and attractions farther away. Almost all of my European friends were at the wedding, and afterwards, six of us commenced an Epic Road Trip from Detroit to SLC via New Orleans. I was the only American on this little adventure. We stayed in a number of downtowns with large black populations. Nary a hint of a problem.

I visit Minneapolis on a fairly regular basis. Every time I visit, I go to the "Uptown" neighborhood, which is near where George Floyd was murdered. Perfectly safe. There was a shooting there last week, killed one, wounded a bunch, which is kind of disconcerting. It appears to have been a gang dustup, but there was a similar shooting at the Fashion Place Mall in suburban SL County a few months ago, so it is not like that sort of thing can't happen pretty much anywhere there are gangs with scores to settle.

I grew up a Mo family with southern roots, and most of the family, at least in my parents' generation, had very serious cases of White Grievance back in the day. I think by the end of their lives, they had mellowed some, so I'll take a shot at explaining White Privilege to Zee, in the hope that it will make a small dent.

White Privilege doesn't mean you are racist. That is a separate issue. I means you get to assume things as "normal" that people of color do not get to assume.

Some quite recent examples:
Just Wednesday of this week, a woman was stopped by police. I think it was University of Tennessee Security, though it might have been Chatanooga Police. Whatever. Her write-up is rather long (5 to 10 minute read). It is truly harrowing, and I really recommend you take the time. It was covered on television news, and since it happened right in front of her house, much of the neighborhood witnessed it, so this is not just some FaceBook exercise in creative fiction. It happened. An investigation is underway.

https://m.facebook.com/1548640308/posts/10216675102900498/?d=n

Another item I posted a few weeks ago, but is appropriate here, is an essay by Neil DeGrasse Tyson, reporting on a conference of Black physicists, where they got talking about being stopped for Driving While Black, Walking While Black, or Just Being Black. Every single person had a story. And this was basically a group of people with PhDs. Tyson had been stopped and questioned while taking physics books INTO his office.

https://www.haydenplanetarium.org/tyson/commentary/2020-06-03-reflections-on-color-of-my-skin.php

Note that Tyson did not post this on a personal website or FaceBook account, he put it on the Hayden Planetarium website. He's the director, and he damn well gets to decide what is important enough to go there. He put all of his professional weight behind this essay.

Do you think if two black men had chased a white man jogging across a city park, a man wearing a t-shirt and shorts, so clearly not armed nor carrying stolen goods, and accosted him with two long guns, and shot and killed him, that they would have gone ten and a half weeks without being charged, because they had argued they were within their rights and the police bought it?

What if 30 black men had shown up in the lobby of the Michgan State Capitol to protest whatever, sporting semiautomatic assault rifles. How do you think that would have gone?


THAT is White Privilege. Stuff that happens to people of color simply doesn't happen to you. It doesn't mean you are racist. It doesn't mean you flaunt white privilege. It is a feature of your existence. Attacking it is not saying your life should be worse. Everyone else's life needs to be better. Life is not a zero-sum game. Everyone's life CAN be better.

Hope I made a dent.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2020 06:54PM by Brother Of Jerry.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Zeeeeezrom ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 06:57PM

Brother of Jerrry, thank you for taking the time to share your comments in a thoughtful and civil manner, unlike many other individuals posting here. You certainly bring up some interesting perspectives. I have read your entire comment, and while I take your points, I respectfully disagree with them.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 07:12PM

Your compass is broken. It is not pointing north. Good luck on your walking your path in life.


The question does arise: do you know that we are not actually drinking from the coffee cups you're gleefully peeing in?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: June 28, 2020 12:03PM

If you like thoughtful and civil try modelling it. Maybe you could rethink your negative references about women and your sarcastic posting style. For starters.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2020 01:23PM by Nightingale.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Ted ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 08:05PM

This thread really brought out the SJW's. Zeezrom, you need to understand that with the rise of socialism and anarchy, tolerance has been left behind in favor of bans, censorship, insults, put-downs, belittling, bullying, rioting, and violence. They only want hear what they want to hear and everyone else is wrong. They do not want to have a civil conversation with you. Did you really expect that these cop-hating SJW's were going to respectfully discuss your points with you? They are just typical lefty's, who traded one cult for another.

By the way, Zeezrom, I fully expect my comments to be deleted by this administrators. Even now, they are rushing to send an e-mail to the forum administrators to complain like a bunch of babies.

I agree with you Z. There is no systemic racism in American society. There was through the 1960's, but there is not now. I could explain it to these SJW's but they would not understand. However, I hope that they will watch the Hodgetwins explain it:

https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/hodgetwins-wreck-bubba-wallace

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 08:25PM

Ted, I've always treated you with respect because, though our views disagree, you were serious. This post marks a departure.

You've sided with the ignoramuses. I'm disappointed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Concerned ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 08:45PM

This has gotten so off topic.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 08:53PM

Yes, it has.

It went off topic with the first response to your OP. You described the LDS Church's problems with white privilege and immediately someone shows up and says, counter-factually, that the predicate does not exist.

You are right on both points: white privilege exists and the need to eliminate the institutional racism poses real dangers to the church--which may end up going the same way as Zeeeezrom and Ted and and their beloved political movement.

I'm sure not even the Q15 are so blind as not to see the writing on the wall. The question is whether they can remove that wall without the house collapsing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2020 08:53PM by Lot's Wife.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ookami ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 08:45PM

1. Most of the insults, put-downs, belittling, and bullying I've seen here comes from Jordan, his aliases, and YOU, Ted.

2. "They only hear what they want to hear and everyone else is wrong." Again, that's mostly YOU that does that.

3. Respect is earned, Ted, not given. If someone comes on this board claiming racism doesn't exist anymore and everyone who says it does is a "lefty cultist," I see no reason to respect that choad.

4. You claim everyone who's calling you and Zeeeeezrom out "lefty cultists," trying to bring up socialism despite it having zero relevance to this thread, and claim that your post will be deleted because we're "babies." You aren't being censored; you're acting like a jackass and whining about being picked on when you have to suffer consequences for it.

5. Brother of Jerry's post does describe systematic racism in America today. Read it and the links in his post. But then, denying it exists and dismissing everyone who acknowledges it is more your style, isn't it?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: logged out today ( )
Date: June 28, 2020 07:24AM

"They are just typical lefty's, who traded one cult for another."

LMAO. Shouldn't you be out in your truck looking for all those buses full of antifa roaming the countryside?

Now MAGA — that's a genuine cult of personality. A leader who can say or do no wrong, and whose aberrant and depraved behavior must be defended at all costs and by any means necessary.

Talking to you or Zeeezrom is like talking to a TBM about Joseph Smith's polygamy. Like TBMs, you employ straw men, move the goalposts, and engage in willful denial. Actual evidence means nothing to your kind.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 10:04PM

Some people mistakenly think of "racism" as ONLY the overt, in-your-face kind.

This is not true.

The secret of systemic racism is that it denies that it is racist.

Systemic racism is an aggregate of small, individual actions that are passed off as not being racist.

Let's start with a common statement that more likely than not you probably heard as a child: "They just want to be with their own kind." As adults, you probably heard this expressed as the doctrine of "freedom of association" and that it's not racist to "want to be with your own kind" or some such — and you assume everyone else just thinks the same way.

That's just one example of many.

Racism is a learned behaviour. It is taught by parents to their children and passed down to successive generatons.

That chain is finally beginning to break.


If you need further explanation, I've pasted this famous 1990 essay by Peggy McIntosh in full.

https://www.racialequitytools.org/resourcefiles/mcintosh.pdf


White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack

Peggy McIntosh

"I was taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group"

Through work to bring materials from women's studies into the rest of the curriculum, I have often noticed men's unwillingness to grant that they are overprivileged, even though they may grant that women are disadvantaged. They may say they will work to women's statues, in the society, the university, or the curriculum, but they can't or won't support the idea of lessening men's. Denials that amount to taboos surround the subject of advantages that men gain from women's disadvantages. These denials protect male privilege from being fully acknowledged, lessened, or ended.

Thinking through unacknowledged male privilege as a phenomenon, I realized that, since hierarchies in our society are interlocking, there are most likely a phenomenon, I realized that, since hierarchies in our society are interlocking, there was most likely a phenomenon of while privilege that was similarly denied and protected. As a white person, I realized I had been taught about racism as something that puts others at a disadvantage, but had been taught not to see one of its corollary aspects, white privilege, which puts me at an advantage.

I think whites are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege, as males are taught not to recognize male privilege. So I have begun in an untutored way to ask what it is like to have white privilege. I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was "meant" to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools , and blank checks.

Describing white privilege makes one newly accountable. As we in women's studies work to reveal male privilege and ask men to give up some of their power, so one who writes about having white privilege must ask, "having described it, what will I do to lessen or end it?"

After I realized the extent to which men work from a base of unacknowledged privilege, I understood that much of their oppressiveness was unconscious. Then I remembered the frequent charges from women of color that white women whom they encounter are oppressive. I began to understand why we are just seen as oppressive, even when we don't see ourselves that way. I began to count the ways in which I enjoy unearned skin privilege and have been conditioned into oblivion about its existence.

My schooling gave me no training in seeing myself as an oppressor, as an unfairly advantaged person, or as a participant in a damaged culture. I was taught to see myself as an individual whose moral state depended on her individual moral will. My schooling followed the pattern my colleague Elizabeth Minnich has pointed out: whites are taught to think of their lives as morally neutral, normative, and average, and also ideal, so that when we work to benefit others, this is seen as work that will allow "them" to be more like "us."


Daily effects of white privilege

I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions.

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.


31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

Elusive and fugitive

I repeatedly forgot each of the realizations on this list until I wrote it down. For me white privilege has turned out to be an elusive and fugitive subject. The pressure to avoid it is great, for in facing it I must give up the myth of meritocracy. If these things are true, this is not such a free country; one's life is not what one makes it; many doors open for certain people through no virtues of their own.

In unpacking this invisible knapsack of white privilege, I have listed conditions of daily experience that I once took for granted. Nor did I think of any of these perquisites as bad for the holder. I now think that we need a more finely differentiated taxonomy of privilege, for some of these varieties are only what one would want for everyone in a just society, and others give license to be ignorant, oblivious, arrogant, and destructive.

I see a pattern running through the matrix of white privilege, a patter of assumptions that were passed on to me as a white person. There was one main piece of cultural turf; it was my own turn, and I was among those who could control the turf. My skin color was an asset for any move I was educated to want to make. I could think of myself as belonging in major ways and of making social systems work for me. I could freely disparage, fear, neglect, or be oblivious to anything outside of the dominant cultural forms. Being of the main culture, I could also criticize it fairly freely.

In proportion as my racial group was being made confident, comfortable, and oblivious, other groups were likely being made unconfident, uncomfortable, and alienated. Whiteness protected me from many kinds of hostility, distress, and violence, which I was being subtly trained to visit, in turn, upon people of color.

For this reason, the word "privilege" now seems to me misleading. We usually think of privilege as being a favored state, whether earned or conferred by birth or luck. Yet some of the conditions I have described here work systematically to over empower certain groups. Such privilege simply confers dominance because of one's race or sex.

Earned strength, unearned power

I want, then, to distinguish between earned strength and unearned power conferred privilege can look like strength when it is in fact permission to escape or to dominate. But not all of the privileges on my list are inevitably damaging. Some, like the expectation that neighbors will be decent to you, or that your race will not count against you in court, should be the norm in a just society. Others, like the privilege to ignore less powerful people, distort the humanity of the holders as well as the ignored groups.

We might at least start by distinguishing between positive advantages, which we can work to spread, and negative types of advantage, which unless rejected will always reinforce our present hierarchies. For example, the feeling that one belongs within the human circle, as Native Americans say, should not be seen as privilege for a few. Ideally it is an unearned entitlement. At present, since only a few have it, it is an unearned advantage for them. This paper results from a process of coming to see that some of the power that I originally say as attendant on being a human being in the United States consisted in unearned advantage and conferred dominance.

I have met very few men who truly distressed about systemic, unearned male advantage and conferred dominance. And so one question for me and others like me is whether we will be like them, or whether we will get truly distressed, even outraged, about unearned race advantage and conferred dominance, and, if so, what we will do to lessen them. In any case, we need to do more work in identifying how they actually affect our daily lives. Many, perhaps most, of our white students in the United States think that racism doesn't affect them because they are not people of color; they do not see "whiteness" as a racial identity. In addition, since race and sex are not the only advantaging systems at work, we need similarly to examine the daily experience of having age advantage, or ethnic advantage, or physical ability, or advantage related to nationality, religion, or sexual orientation.

Difficulties and angers surrounding the task of finding parallels are many. Since racism, sexism, and heterosexism are not the same, the advantages associated with them should not be seen as the same. In addition, it is hard to disentangle aspects of unearned advantage that rest more on social class, economic class, race, religion, sex, and ethnic identity that on other factors. Still, all of the oppressions are interlocking, as the members of the Combahee River Collective pointed out in their "Black Feminist Statement" of 1977.

One factor seems clear about all of the interlocking oppressions. They take both active forms, which we can see, and embedded forms, which as a member of the dominant groups one is taught not to see. In my class and place, I did not see myself as a racist because I was taught to recognize racism only in individual acts of meanness by members of my group, never in invisible systems conferring unsought racial dominance on my group from birth.

Disapproving of the system won't be enough to change them. I was taught to think that racism could end if white individuals changed their attitude. But a "white" skin in the United States opens many doors for whites whether or not we approve of the way dominance has been conferred on us. Individual acts can palliate but cannot end, these problems.

To redesign social systems we need first to acknowledge their colossal unseen dimensions. The silences and denials surrounding privilege are the key political surrounding privilege are the key political tool here. They keep the thinking about equality or equity incomplete, protecting unearned advantage and conferred dominance by making these subject taboo. Most talk by whites about equal opportunity seems to me now to be about equal opportunity to try to get into a position of dominance while denying that systems of dominance exist.

It seems to me that obliviousness about white advantage, like obliviousness about male advantage, is kept strongly inculturated in the United States so as to maintain the myth of meritocracy, the myth that

democratic choice is equally available to all. Keeping most people unaware that freedom of confident action is there for just a small number of people props up those in power and serves to keep power in the hands of the same groups that have most of it already.

Although systemic change takes many decades, there are pressing questions for me and, I imagine, for some others like me if we raise our daily consciousness on the perquisites of being light-skinned. What will we do with such knowledge? As we know from watching men, it is an open question whether we will choose to use unearned advantage, and whether we will use any of our arbitrarily awarded power to try to reconstruct power systems on a broader base.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2020 10:13PM by anybody.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 10:16PM

Do you have a version with fewer words and more pictures?

Because, well, you know. . .

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 10:51PM

Still too many words, I fear.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ookami ( )
Date: June 27, 2020 11:32PM

Thank you, anybody. You described how systematic racism and privilege works better than I could.

Of course, some of the folks who need to read this either won't or dismiss your post.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Man in a White Suit ( )
Date: June 28, 2020 08:38AM

ookami Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you, anybody. You described how systematic
> racism and privilege works better than I could.
>
> Of course, some of the folks who need to read this
> either won't or dismiss your post.

I read it all. It is a faulty analysis which is based around the type of identity politics which is the mirror image of the Alt Right.

It fails to take into account a number of factors. It also offers criticism but no solutions which work in practical terms.

You assume this is all right and the only take on this subject. I disagree.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Man in a White Suit ( )
Date: June 28, 2020 08:14AM

There are a lot of forms of racism, and not all from the sources or political tendencies you'd expect.

There are also people who prefer a form of oppression so that they can cause trouble and hurt other people.

There is also the double blind, of when a black person gets into trouble whether racism is involved or not. Terry Gilliam, who is as white as they come, said that he would regularly get pulled over by police in the USA, and questioned where he got his car from. This is when he was younger and before Monty Python. Basically, he had long hair. He said when he moved to England, this stopped. He jokes he was probably making more money than some of the police who stopped him.

Tom Wolfe gave an interview some years ago (it's pretty long), but he discusses his view on race relations in it. He mentions the Occupy Movement (which had a different focus) and says that a lot of the black militants were waiting for the end of Obama's presidency and the start of a white one (which has turned out to be prophetic) He also mentions Obama's attitude on civil rights being completely out of sync with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.
https://youtu.be/Fs8lKSmGlLA

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: June 28, 2020 11:02AM

Man in a White Suit Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------

> There are also people who prefer a form of
> oppression so that they can cause trouble and hurt
> other people.


Well, Mr. Sidney Stratton — if that's who you really are — I don't know what you're smoking but claiming that people deliberately prefer oppression is total nonsense. And it's the epitome of racism.


Your argument falls apart — just like the fabric you fictionally invented at the end of the movie.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: June 28, 2020 03:10PM

Nope. The church will outlast the current trend of “White Privilege” which really is nothing more than a bunch of radicals trying to agitate a cultural war.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 28, 2020 03:21PM

Yes! After all, what is more radical and culturally destructive than asking the police not to kill innocent people?

Damn agitators. . .

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: June 28, 2020 03:34PM

"All very well and good to play on our softer emotions, but THOSE PEOPLE deserve what they get, because of their horrendous misconduct during the Pre-Existence, The Travails in Heaven!

"You mark my words, Sonny, the day will come when every knee shall bow and every bowel shall bowl and every owl will fowl, and every mouth will jowl, and every sole will rowel... just you wait and see! Or my name isn't Tongue N. Cheek!"

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 28, 2020 03:41PM

"Travails in Heaven."

Didn't Clapton write that?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2020 03:42PM by Lot's Wife.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed. Please start another thread and continue the conversation.