The stated aim of the Y being "perfection" is a recipe for disaster. https://aims.byu.edu/

High pressure to " be perfect" or aim for perfection only leads to high anxiety and depression, which students will try to mask with reports of various "achievements" to try to measure up and please their leaders.

The Y needs to take a moment to look at Catholic universities for example and notice you can teach Xtianity and be character-based without pushing something as unachievable and undesirable as perfection.

Pushing perfectionism is not just unachievable but undesireable. Do experts in parenting espouse raising "perfect" children? No, they espouse raising kids with a high degree of positivity mixed with some structured activities as well as lots of down time, and also a high degree of flexibility and most importantly, opportunity to explore a variety of ideas.

Likewise institutes of higher learning should not be about helping students to "become perfect" but about helping them to become open minded thinkers and truth seekers.

“The perfect is the enemy of the good.”

As a born and raised Catholic, I would say that the Catholic faith does push perfectionism to an unhealthy degree. It does this through the mechanism of confession, which many Catholics do weekly or monthly. As a child, I was taught to go through the Ten Commandments as a guide, and examine the state of my soul thoroughly. All "sins" are expected to be confessed anonymously to a priest. If you take a pen home from the office, it will weigh on your conscience.

As an adult, I came to see how unhealthy this is. I felt that it encouraged too much self-reflection and self-assessment, often for relatively minor things. It can lead to a tremendous, ongoing feeling of guilt among Catholics. Even though I no longer considered myself Catholic after my mid-teens, the guilt continued on into my 40s. IMO, this is no way to live a life.

The difference between Catholics and Mormons, however, is that Catholics take for granted that they are imperfect (while striving for elusive perfectionism.) Thus they do not feel the need to put on a show of righteousness. This has the positive effect of leading to a great feeling of comradeship between fellow Catholics, a feeling of "we're all in this together." This is why I am still greeted warmly by almost all practicing Catholics even when I explain to them that I no longer practice the faith.

Back in my cesspool days of mormonism I had a discussion with my Elder's Quorum President when I was being raked over the coals once again for poor home teaching numbers. I stated that I wasn't perfect. He asked me why not. I was dumbfounded. He said he was perfect and then asked me which aspect of the church that I couldn't be perfect in. I brought up home teaching as that was our topic at the moment. "Why can't you visit your families once a month? Perfectly? Every month? What's so hard about that?"

We then delved into tithing, fasting, Family Home Evenings, temple attendance, etc. He was a master at belittling my feeble reasons and when we ended our meeting I felt like boiled dog crap. I reasoned that yes, I could be perfect, and it caused me much mental anxiety over the years.

Perfection as a recipe for disaster, I wholinessly agree.

That guy sounds like a psychopath. He claimed to be perfect? A closeted child molester is more likely.

It's a shame that Mormons get so beat down that they can't give the proper response, which is to suggest that Mr. EQP go do unnatural acts to himself.

Recently the Mormon leaders even 'dumbed down' their TR requirement for honesty; maybe they're change the scripture from 'be ye therefore perfect' to

'be ye therefore mediocre'

My dad tortured himself with that scripture.

The worse he felt about his imperfections, the more he abused his family.

Sundays were sooo much fun at Dorothy's childhood home. Church would hand him a heaping helping of guilt. At home, one false move and hello WRATH.

There was no such thing as a mistake or just being a kid.

I don't know if he ever felt guilty for using a belt on his kids or destroying their little psyches.

Church never really talked about silly things like being a decent human being to children or animals.

I think the thing he felt most guilty about was not being rich. That one is the one true indicator of God's approval right?

While I suspect that your response was an ironic one, nevertheless it points out something that a lot of people, especially religious people, miss. It's called the middle ground.

In this case, you either are perfect or sinful (mediocre in the case of the post I'm responding to). There is no room for "good," or "basically good."

As noted, this applys in other areas as well. Something is either wholly good or wholly evil; there is no in-between.

Something is either right or wrong; there is no middle ground here, either.

It's either dark or light; twilight and dawn do not exist.

It's either black or white; no other colors exist.

The big problem with all of this is that it ignores some basic realities. The definitions of good and evil vary from group to group and sometimes from individual to individual. Often, what is considered right or wrong is situational. And, of course, there is really a dawn and a twilight, and there are more colors than black (the absence of color) and white (all colors together). Education teaches us that, but we must get away from these nasty religious beliefs to learn it.

blindguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And, of course, there is really a dawn and a
> twilight, and there are more colors than black
> (the absence of color) and white (all colors
> together).

He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
https://biblehub.com/john/9-25.htm

You aren’t the first to see how counterproductive the perfection thing is. There’s a ton of psychological literature explaining why. You think church leaders will ever read it? Science is not a Mormon’s friend.

How will one know when one has attained perfection ? Is there a standard ?

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How will one know when one has attained perfection
> ? Is there a standard ?

You may recall that Benjamin Franklin in his autobiography relates how he set out to become "perfect." He made a list of all the qualities of the perfect person and tackled them one at a time. As he became perfect in each one, he crossed it off the list and went on to the next one. He finally had only one quality to master, which was "humility." But try as he might, he couldn't quite get that one, simply because he was so proud of having become so perfect.

So he gave up trying to be perfect.

Franklin was a master of irony, particularly irreverent irony.

For example, he once wrote a chapter and had it bound into his personal Bible. Then at a dinner party he asked someone to read an excerpt from Genesis, Chapter (whatever it was). His guests were surprised because none of them had heard of that chapter, but lo and behold there it was and the guest read as directed. Eventually people figured out that it was fraudulent and hence a great, if to some disturbing, joke.

I suspect the quest for perfection was jocular as well. Franklin was more deist or atheist than Christian and had a good streak of Samuel Clemons in him as well.

Perfection is not drinking any Coke products, or buying anything on Sunday, and wearing church clothes to watch GC on television. Surely y'all got the memo, no?

Beyond that, nobody, anywhere, ever, pays much attention to corporate mission statements.

Perfection, as a state of being, is a challenge for mormons.

If no one sees you sinning, you're perfect!

But as soon as you're spotted, ya gotta do the Repentence Shuck-'n-Jive and start the climb again.

That's true, many corporate mission statements aren't paid attention to but you'd think that academic accrediting bodies would be bothered by the contradiction of the Y claiming academic integrity, all the while its mission and school being more like a boot camp that prohibits free thinking. Which is why the Y should also be concerned about how it appears, contradictory and frankly, unacademic.

For the church's own good it should update its stance and not focus on being so backward which is a mentally unhealthy breeding ground and instead encourage a less harsh and demanding standard and a healthier focus instead. Catholicism ain't perfect and I understand it caused a great deal of guilt amongst adherents moreso in the past, whereas today it seems to be more open minded, at least in some ways.

At least kids going to Catholic colleges are allowed to (gasp) drink coffee and tea and even beer and its leaders don't fixate on being perfect, regardless of what it may mean.

are, in my experience (and I work at a Catholic church/school), just resigned to the fact that they're going to purgatory and will only get to heaven through grace. So, they drink and swear and generally have a good time.

The school does an annual trivia night fundraiser; I'm always at the table with the priests, office staff, and principal. We're pretty sedate, but the tables around us invariably get SMASHED.

Forgoing alcohol and swearing and fun has always been more the purview of Protestants. However, in recent decades even tee-totaling denominations such as United Methodism have relaxed quite a bit; the last time I worked at a Methodist church, I even saw the pastor have a beer at dinner/worship planning meeting.

Now the Mormons seem to be the lone holdout in the "no fun" contest. They're proudly carrying the torch of Puritanism into the 21st century.

Yeah, Catholics know how to party! But in my experience, I never saw a Catholic who took the concept of Purgatory seriously.

When I attended BYU the entrance sign read "The Glory of God is Intelligence". Have they taken that down or changed it?

I ask this because I have not experienced that statement in practice at BYU or any other Mormon establishment.

In practice, Mormonism proclaims that one should not ask questions about Mormonism and doubt one's doubts. That is the path to ignorance rather than intelligence.

Could god PLEASE get his mission statement clarified for those poor Mormons?

In contrast to perfectionism, we do have another choice. I read this quote this morning from a FB group, the Wisdom of the Shamans, and it certainly resonated with me.

"Today I will choose LOVE. Tomorrow I will choose love. And the day after that, I will choose love. If I mistakenly choose distraction, perfection, or negativity over love, I will not wallow in regret. I will choose love until it becomes who I am."

- Rachel Macy Stafford

What kind of world could this be, if only...?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2020 11:45AM by cuzx.

Many Mormons, certainly not all, believe you must first be worthy of being loved. You must toe the line and meet the mark. You must be always obedient So few of us met the mark all the time that we got a bit tired of waiting for that love. It just never came.

On the other side, I met a few Mormons that were salt of the earth and non-judgmental. They were always delightful to be around. I don't think it had anything to do with them being Mormon however. I think it had more to do with their core personality that Mormonism could never destroyed.