Well, I guess we've made the big leagues when there is now commentary about us and our supposed strict doctrines of ex-mormonism. thoughts?

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2020/06/30/commentary-utah-author/

Wow! I'm worse exmormon than I was a mormon!

I never read any of the books she lists. Never promoted the alcohol, drugs and sex she says I'm supposed to espouse. I had no idea there was doctrine.

Oh well.

Heartless Wrote:
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> Wow! I'm worse exmormon than I was a mormon!

Me too! Ten years out, and I fail every point on her list:

1. Still never drink. Never got the taste for it.

2. Still sexually uptight. My new atheist wife finds it hilarious, so I maybe even exaggerate it to make her laugh.

3. I don't think Joe and Brigham were terrible humans beings. As a cynic, I note that human beings are generally violent, sex obsessed apes, prone to dishonesty and self deception. Far from being terrible human beings, J and B are spectacular examples of the species.

4. Never read an anti-Mormon book. Well not since leaving - I read one 20 years before leaving ("Shadow or Reality"), if that counts.

5. More religious than ever, though not in a conventional way. (Think animism.)

I'll take her points one by one --

1. Liberation from the WoW -- "Many ex-Mormons also say that coffee will heal you physically — that coffee and tea are much healthier than the Diet Coke and Monster drinks many Mormons use for their caffeine intake." Well, coffee and tea *are* healthy drinks, that is scientific fact backed up by dozens of studies. But while some exmos enjoy trying formerly forbidden drinks, many choose not to, and that's fine. I've seen support for both approaches in the exmo community.

2. Body image/Sexuality -- again, what works for one will not necessarily work for all. Being given increased choices demands personal responsibility for those choices.

3. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were terrible human beings. No argument there. And yes, JS was technically a sexual predator and hebephile, not a pedophile.

4. She likes the expanded reading options, but decries that most books recommended by exmos are written by male authors. I think the exmo community is always open to suggestions for good, applicable books.

5. A distrust of religion and spirituality -- yeah, well. Promoting science instead -- given the current anti-science climate, is this really so bad?

The nuanced thinking that she craves is a hallmark of an exmo who has (often slowly) worked his or her way through the exit process. It doesn't come automatically, but is instead the product of many years of labor.

We ex-mormons have doctrines?

BTW, while I do love alcohol, coffee, and tea in MODERATE amounts, claiming that exmos will "be healed by trying every substance forbidden by the Word of Wisdom" would be completely stupid.

This seems more like another "they left because they wanted to sin" smear.

Dammit!

I'm still trying to learn all the rules necessary to get my atheist union card and now I have to learn the ones for ex-Mos too?

Lottie, you've broken at least twenty of the exmo rules already. We would put you in time out, but we know you won't stay there. :D

Yup. I may be the only person here who knows how to use a dunce cap as a weapon.

My wife until fairly recently was deeply involved with a lot of well known NOM/Exmo groups that are well known on the Mormon Internet. I've attended several parties with these folks. I got in a lot of trouble years ago when I called John Dehlin a Windbag Fence Sitter, but that's another story. Anyway, a while ago we were in SLC when there were several "High Level Exmo" parties. A lot of these folks have decided in the last few years they are EXMos, and they have bravely struck out into the world of drinking alcohol, and putting on pretenses in public about their fine taste in beer, wine, spirits etc. For the most part these people reminded me of friends in the first year or so of graduate school who wanted to show how grown up they were by getting totally sodded drunk and acting like little shitheads. After the drinking had been going on for quite a while three of the women had informed me that they had taken up "swinging." Good lordy what a pathetic bunch. I told a non-member friend, who lives in the South East area of SLC, about this and he informed me that these women are a type he runs into all the time.

my favorite LDS subject author was Juanita Brooks, she exposed the MMM inspite of criticism from others 'friends & neighbors' who didn't (like so many mormons) abide the facts/truth; Also Levi Peterson's bio of Juanita was a confirmation of the rigorous research that Juanita did, her relentless digging to uncover Facts.
This was my original pro-truth, "anti-mormon" piece of literature, I didn't need any others.

'sunshine is sometimes the best disinfectant' O.W. Holmes

The belief that there's one way to properly leave the church. It seems to be very popular question asked: How do I leave the church with members or family finding out?

As if there's a way to leave without causing unpleasantness among former friends and family.

I also thought she was going to make a point that too many ex-mos boud mouth the church when it's possible to experience nothing but goodness from the mormon church experience.

my 'strict doctrine':

I get to make my own choices & be responsible for them

Honesty & Kindness, no substitutes, no excuses

Not claiming to 'be perfect' gives me the incentive - motivation to be understanding & forgiving of others.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot about skinny-dipping & nude hiking, my bad.

Actually, this is kinna dumb and painfully simplistic. She is not an exmo, she is "on sabbatical". And that is just 18 months in. She has a long long way to go to get herself out of the mormon mindset. Even the fiction she writes is mormon related. It does speak to the exmos she has chosen to hang around with.

1. You will be healed by trying every substance forbidden by the Word of Wisdom.

In 20+ years of being around the "exmo community" I have never heard such an absurd thing. And healed from what? This doesn't even make sense. She feels pressured to drink booze. Good hell. She is 49 not 21. Grow up. Say no thanks and move along. Yes, coffee and some teas are very healthy. So is red wine. Facts. If you don't like it, don't drink it but it doesn't change the facts. If you choose to dump a shitload of sugar and crap in it, that is on you. Your personal choice. That has nothing to do with the health properties of anything. The basic items ARE better for you than diet Coke (that you shouldn't be having by strict TBM rule) and I have no idea what a "monster drink" is.

"I loved Mormonism for a long time and still love many parts of it. The Word of Wisdom is one of the parts that has been difficult for me to leave behind." Then don't. But don't think of it as the WoW, think of it as CHOICES you have made for YOURSELF. Again, she is 49!

2. Your sex life will improve and you will feel better about your body.

Uh, that is up to you and your spouse. Seeing the body shaming and licked cupcake lessons for what they are. Understanding that sexuality is a natural, normal thing not some big scary shameful thing you need to keep hidden will help you to be a more emotionally healthy person and yes, that can lead to a more healthy sex life. Porn? Just like coffee. It's what YOU make of it. Don't like it? Then don't use it. That is what being an exmo is. Making your own choices.

3. Joseph Smith was a pedophile and Brigham Young was a racist.

Yes, lots of people don't get the terminology correct but screwing 14 year old children is still screwing 14 year old children. In the 1840s the average for puberty in girls was 14-17. The whole "things were different then" line doesn't hold water. There are damn good reasons it is AGAINST THE LAW. Young was a racist and a whole bunch of other ists. It doesn't take much research to figure out.

4. You need to read the following white male authors.

Sounds to me more like "these are some authors/books I have found of interest. Pretty small newbie list and doesn't include many I have seen here over the years. I wouldn't even put any she lists on the top 25 list. Again, she must be hanging with a small group of people. Pissy because you are not one of them? How many times have you told others about women authors you recommend? No mention of her female recommended reading list. No "what about". She has a lot of her own reading to do.

5. Science is the way to all truth. I’ve tried to point out that I’m not interested in making science my new God because science is a patriarchal structure that isn’t that different from Mormonism, from my perspective. Maybe the “truth” of science is more proof-textable, but I’m not so sure anymore. Or maybe my Mormon skepticism of science is, itself, at issue here.

Uh yeah. this is your own bias talking. Science is science. It is not a God. It does not have a sex. The days when the sciences were male dominated have passed. Welcome to 2020.

The fact that she sees exmormons as a "social club" is telling. She is finding prefab groups instead of striking out on her own and creating her own circle of friends. Sad, I hope she grows up and realizes SHE is the one that has the ability to make her own choices now. And she really, really needs to move out of the moridore and into the more diverse world.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2020 07:40AM by Susan I/S.

WHAT A LOAD OF BULL.

Following is a list of my staunchly adhered to Ex-Mormon doctrines:

Exactly!

Nonsense, ONLY five!?

There are many, many, many others to be enjoyed -- let thy creativity be thy guide!


Just sufferin' like an animal out here in non-happy-valley lol

I have to "No"...with your moniker, which I like, are you fan of James Bond Movies?

I get asked if I'm adhering to those doctrines everytime I go to my Ex-mormon worthiness interview. And I need the interviews so I can be worthy to not take the sacrament and not attend the temple. Cause if someone isn't telling me what to think and do, how would I know???

I got a good chuckle from the article. A human tendency is to paint a group of people with a broad brush. That is what the author of the article did. It took me a decade of being out to try alcohol and alcohol really doesn’t float my boat anyway. It also took a decade to try coffee! Sugar and creamer use goes down as I discovered that I really love the actual taste of coffee! I like reading all sorts of books. Not being limited as to what I can read is a relief. Just finished ‘the 19th wife’ by Ann Eliza Young. Some exmos take a crazy dive off the boat, others dip a toe in first. I now recognize that people are on their own unique journeys! And I can accept that. I just hope being an Exmormon nowadays is not like a fad or to be cool. For me it has been a difficult and stressful change. And I am glad I went down the exmo path!

“The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Nietzsche

Do the right thing, even when no one else knows; It’s called INTEGRITY.

“Nothing can bring you peace but yourself” R.W. Emerson in Self-Reliance

“Be as you wish to seem” –Socrates

People can only meet you as deeply as they’ve met themselves. Work on becoming the best version of yourself; then you will attract others who are blooming, into your life. Heal yourself first.

Her anti-science remarks make me say "fraud." She's got a foot in the foyer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2020 10:33PM by donbagley.

And the rest of her in the chapel.

The truth is that most people who leave Mormonism just don't look back. They can leave Mormonism alone, unlike that famous talk... We are the exceptions.

The majority of LDS get baptized and leave within six months. Or if they're BIC, they go inactive when they reach adulthood.

Some exmos do go all doctrinaire. That's true, but most don't. When I see the doctrinaire ones who have been sucked into some other belief system or authority structure, I just go back to the old proverb, "empty barrels make the most noise". Maybe not empty - there may be a few things loose in there.

What small minded, "wanna-be-percieved-as-sage" crap.

The real five if there actually were ex-mormon doctrines which there aren't:


1. Finally allow yourself to understand nutrition from a healthy intellectual perspective rather than a trick masquerading as a commandment to bolster strict obedience to the cult.

2. Work hard on ridding yourself of engrained indoctrination like someone at church should tell you who to love and how to love while using your intimacy with another human being as a tool against you for the sake of, again, strict obedience to the cult.

3. Work hard on ridding yourself of screwed up social skills learned in Mormonism that formed your behavior as a way to induce strict obedience to the cult.

4. Brigham? Joseph? Oh please Mary. Don't make me laugh. Even they weren't as culty as the church is now. They were just garden variety selfish and devious and flying by the seat of their pants unlike the well organized Mormons of today blackmailing for obedience.

5. Understand that Science is not the enemy of spirituality but religion is. And religious freedom? Don't make me laugh. Mormonism will suck the freedom from your life faster than almost anything and replace it with guilting you into strict obedience.

Ask not what your cult can do for you, ask what you can do for your cult!

She's full of herself and is full of nonsense.

In regard to points #3 and #5, though, I would love to hear a logical and well-stated refutation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2020 11:09AM by scmd1.

Every now and again, RFM has a person post a rant saying we’re all terrible and doing it wrong. This is round 4,972.

I think she’s just mad that her books aren’t selling.

From this article, I can see why.

Sounds like what she wants exmormons to be like.

True free agency shows her list a far cry from reality.

Utter rubbish! Who gave her the right to speak for ex-Mormons?

My primary strict doctrine is "tell the truth"
There is a brutality to truth.
Truth is brutal. It is non-compromising to circumstance. It is what it is and not what we may want it to be. It will withstand scrutiny. Truth is devastating to the liar. They can be called to account for their lies and will almost a;ways become belligerent and violent when exposed. However truth will not be thwarted. It will force it's way to the fore and demand attention.
People are generally taught that a little white lie is acceptable if it saves hurt or embarrassment. But is it worth surrendering your personal integrity to tell one?
So if I always tell the truth as I see it I will need to be prepared to accept the behavioral consequences it engenders.
Many times people will ask you if like the dress, skirt, shirt or whatever they are wearing. I always answer “Do you really want to know or are you seeking my endorsement of your choice? If the answer is “I want to know” then you are obligated to say yes I like it or no I do not like it. Coupled with “Would you like to know why?” the brutality of the truth can be lessened.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2020 09:52AM by thedesertrat1.

This is rubbish. What a thing to worship - "brutal truths." It didn't even relate to the thread. Absolutism looks for truths to support it and they are the most stark examples of facts over feelings. It is a dark god you worship for your own feelings.

Who is that lady hanging out with? It seems she spends her time with exmormon parody's, than any exmo I have ever met. She built a straw-man and toppled it.

TopperToppington (wearing a facemask is not a political statement. It's an IQ test).

TopperToppington Wrote:
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> TopperToppington (wearing a facemask is not a
> political statement. It's an IQ test).

You don't have to be intelligent to wear a face mask. I've seen several wearing them over their mouths but not their noses recently.

Okay, among the people who wear masks are some who aren't very wise.

Conversely, among those who don't wear masks there is not a single intelligent person.

To which crowd do you belong?

This lady is a shill trying to sell a book and or narrative or she is being deceived by her bishop that she is now attending the ex-mo church which still demands the same amount of tithing as the pro-mo church.

Following arbitrary rules because you are out of religion is as stupid as following arbitrary rules while in one. Mormonism is a false system of belief - you don't follow someone else's rules you don't deem personally useful - that is the whole point!

If Exmos were like Mormons, I would have been excommunicated long ago. Fortunately, their only doctrine is that they have no doctrine.

Mormonism in the modern age can only hold together through lies. That is a serious problem that the church seems unable to address. I mean they could, but they don’t have the guts.

That whole diatribe has a "they left mormonism just because they want to sin" vibe about it.

The fact that she thinks a devotion to science is "making [science] her new God..." tells me she is entrenched in her Molly thinking.

Probably doesn't wear a mask, either. Hope her tubes are tied.

I guess I would be an inactive exmormon?

I read the article and I think I see what she is saying.

The main difference that I see here is social pressure vs. central authority.

When I concluded that I no longer beleived in mormonisn, I did try coffee. I liked it. I have a cup from Dunkin every morning when I can. I tried alcohol. I liked it, too. I don't drink frequently, but that is due mostly to making sure I am in good shape to work, drive, etc. You kind of need to plan ahead.

I think my sex life is my own business but it did not change after. We get along fine, no thanks to mormonosim.

I read what I want to read. Actually, I never considered the race, age, or gender (wrong term?) of an author. I like to read different points of view and see if I can broaden my understanding.

I do love science. I imagine that there is a lot of baggage that needs to be addressed with respect to the history of science and people who were excluded because of race, gender, economic status, sexual preferences, etc. I feel that if I had been a clearer thinker (more scienctific) that I would have not fallen in with the mormon church and it's doctrine.

We can do a lot better if we try.

That being said, I don't worry about getting kicked out of my exmormon community because my views, knowledge, or personality varies from others who have reached the same conclusion about the veracity of mormon claims. We will certainly disagree about everything but we can still associate.

I never felt that I had to adhere to five or any other number of points of exmormon doctrine. While it is natural to notice common behavior of a group, extending your own experience and characterizing an entire group of people seems to be the basis of prejudice and bigotry. I try not to do that.

but she isn't one. Not yet, anyway.

Her list is what I would expect from an active Mormon describing what they perceive as ex-Mormon "doctrines." I've experienced some of these myself, such as when I came home early from my mission and got a lecture from one of my older brothers about how if I ever tasted a drop of alcohol I would become an alcoholic.

That's how Mormons think: it's all or nothing. And this woman still adheres to that mindset. Jettison the church, leave behind the doctrines, and you must--MUST--swing around 180 degrees.

"Take me or leave me. I don’t have to be quiet to keep the peace anymore."

When, if, she finally matures into ex-Mormonism and finds that it is not a monolith, she will hopefully realize how absurd this statement is.

Agreed.

She needs therapy.

At first I thought she might be an interesting person to follow. But the more I read stuff from her, she comes across as both rigidly simplistic in her views, and quite full of herself.

Good way to put it alsd.

Absolutism absolutely requires simplified rigidity bolstered by magnanimous megalomania.

The Mormons who accept their absolutism without magnanimous megalomania almost never make leadership because they often prioritize people over principles.

Exmormons who miss their godlike reality of divine truths find interesting ways to see it.

ALSD, perhaps she hasn't left mormonism completely that would explain both.