Hello all,
I am a nevermo.
According to various sources, for a mormon to be in good standing, he must give 10% of his earnings to the LDS church.

My question is, how is this calculated? Is it 10% of gross or 10% after paying taxes?
For example, in Canada, 33% of your money goes to taxes when you make 50 k$ or less.

Let’s say I am making 50 k$. I pay 33% in taxes. I am left with 33,300$.
10% of 33,300 $ = 3,330$

Let’s say I am making 50 k$. I am suppose to pay 10% on that,
10% of 50,000 $ = 5,000$

How does LDS church makes sure that you are paying 10% instead of 9% or some slightly less amount?Does the church ask you to show them your tax papers?

How do you pay them? Do you do direct deposit to the church? Do you write them a check and mail it?

Does anybody pay more than 10%? Perhaps they want to pay more or perhaps the church demands it.

~~~~iceman9090

iceman9090 Wrote:
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> For example, in Canada, 33% of your money goes to
> taxes when you make 50 k$ or less.

Where do ideas like this come from? It is incorrect.

Here’s the basic tax form for 2019, nothing too different from previous years:

https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/cra-arc/formspubs/pbg/5015-r/5015-r-19e.pdf

Notice that right off the top is a $12,069 deduction, so that is taken off of the $50,000 right from the start. More deductions are available along the way.

When you finally do arrive at your taxable amount, notice that amounts less than $47,630 are taxed at 15% (between $47,630-$95,259 is taxed at 20.5%).

The provincial tax on this differs from Province to Province, but likely ends up as a zero once through all the deductions. Most people in Canada earning $50,000 or less end up receiving a cheque after doing their taxes.



As for tithing, if I earned a $50,000 salary I was expected to pay $5000, pure and simple. But if I had a business and grossed $50,000 with $10,000 in expenses, I was expected to pay $4000 in tithing. Some on RfM have reported that the church requested tithing on gross. That was not my experience.

+Human:
Sorry about that. Just to clarify, I am in Quebec.
So for Canada, you pay about 15% tax and about 15% tax to Quebec.

"Notice that right off the top is a $12,069 deduction, so that is taken off of the $50,000 right from the start."

==I think the purpose of the deduction is for people who make less than 12,000$/y. They don't pay any taxes bc they are poor or perhaps in that particular year, something went wrong for them.
The rest of the people have to cover it.

"More deductions are available along the way."

==Yes but the need for money on the government side of things does not get reduced.
If I have a store selling item X. You come to my store and I sell it to you for 50$ instead of 100$. The next day, I will perhaps mark up the price to 101$.

"The provincial tax on this differs from Province to Province, but likely ends up as a zero once through all the deductions. Most people in Canada earning $50,000 or less end up receiving a cheque after doing their taxes."

==I feel that I should clarify the above line.
Did I mention that the need for money on the government side of things does not get reduced?
The government takes money directly from your paycheck.
When you calculate your taxes, sure, you get some deductions here and there and you might get a check from them but you are still paying the government. So for Quebec, it is about 15%.
Combining Canada + Quebec, it is about 1/3 = 33% of your paycheck.

Some families will pay less taxes. For example, they have kids as dependents, or they have someone old they are taking care of, or they are a fireman, or they are in the army, their kids are going to university and they can include that cost as a deduction, they are a native american and there is a bunch of stuff.
Other people will pay more to cover them.

~~~~iceman9090

The purpose of the $12,000 deduction is, I assume, the "standard deduction". It applies to everyone, not just people making less than that amount.

When I was considering moving to Canada in retirement, I looked into your federal income tax. The jargon is quite different from the US jargon, which surprised me. The final cost was actually somewhat lower than the US income tax. That really surprised me. However, the provincial tax was quite high compared to the US, and the sales tax (GST) is high compared to the US.

The percentage of your income that goes to taxes is a highly variable figure, depending on your family situation, and sources of income. Also it makes little sense to compare with other locales, unless you also include what do you get for your tax dollars. In Canada, health care is a provincial responsibility, so provincial taxes are high to cover it.


As for tithing, it is paid on the honor system. They try to guilt trip you into paying as much as possible, but there is no set of regulations that state what must be tithed and what can be exempt. A farmer, for example, could not possibly pay 10% on their gross income. They have huge expenses, which in a bad year probably exceed their gross income.

So, is health insurance a business expense that you get to deduct from your income, and not pay tithing on it? That's the LDS member's decision.

+Brother Of Jerry:
“The purpose of the $12,000 deduction is, I assume, the "standard deduction". It applies to everyone, not just people making less than that amount.”

==That’s correct however……….
If everyone gets this deduction, are you really getting a deduction?

This is VERY VERY VERY important. Make sure you understand the following line:
The need for money on the government side of things does not get reduced. (RULE #1)

Just for your information, GST applies to products you buy. Certain things don’t have the GST such as milk, potatoes, student books. The government pretends that it is doing you a favor by not having you pay tax on products, but don’t forget, they will collect their money through some other means. See RULE #1.
GST is 5%.
The Quebec tax is 9.975% or something like that.

“The percentage of your income that goes to taxes is a highly variable figure, depending on your family situation, and sources of income.”

==There is variation but it is not highly variable. The variability exists because Canada is more socialist. Taxes placed on the rich is much higher compared to the USA.
So, people in the 50 k$/y, more or less pay the same amount. I don’t have kids so I don’t get some deductions for kids. I am not taking care of an elderly, so I don’t have that either.

I have heard that once you pass 1 M$/y, then you are in the range of paying 50% of your income as taxes. That’s the point where it becomes highly variable. It is high for the rich.

“In Canada, health care is a provincial responsibility, so provincial taxes are high to cover it.”

==Yes, someone has to take care of it, someone has to pay. There is no escape.
If you want to pay no taxes, either you become a homeless bum, or get payed cash and report that you make 10,000$ a year. However, if we all do that, then society collapses.

Back to tithing. So, if I make them a check for 50$, are they going to be suspicious? Can I get into the temple and do the secret mormon handshake?


~~~~iceman9090



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2020 06:12PM by iceman9090.

Easy question first:
>Back to tithing. So, if I make them a check for 50$, are they going to be suspicious? Can I get into the temple and do the secret mormon handshake?

Yes, if you are living a middle class life, they are going to be suspicious. Wouldn't you be? If you gave them a $3500 check and really earned $50,000, you would not arouse much if any suspicion.

But you know all that.

Trying to get a definitive understanding of most mormon doctrine is like trying to nail jello to a tree, and tithing is no different.

Paying 10% of gross income is not official church policy, but there is strong pressure to do so. I've even seen postings on this web site where member's bishops would demand to see W-2 forms.

Like so many things in LDS life,members always play the game of "bishop roulette." One bishop will happily accept it when you say you are a full tithe payer, the next bishop may ask probing questions, and yet another bishop may ask for documentation that you're obeying something that isn't even church policy.

Interestingly, tithing on income wasn't even the understanding of the commandment in the early church.

The following is from KUTV's web site:
Steven Harper, a former BYU professor who now works at the LDS Church History Department, said tithing was originally based on net worth - not income.

In an article published on LDS.org, Harper said the practice took shape in July 1838 when the faith's founder, Joseph Smith, said he received a revelation about it. This came as the church was looking to raise money to build a new temple, Harper said.

In the revelation as recorded in Mormon scripture, tithing was explained to mean members would give "all their surplus property" to the bishop at the time, Edward Partridge, and thereafter "pay one-tenth of all their interest annually."

Current LDS leaders say interest is typically interpreted as "income." But that's not what it has always meant.

"Bishop Partridge understood 'one tenth of all their interest' annually to mean 10 percent of what Saints would earn in interest if they invested their net worth for a year," Harper wrote. He cited an example from Partridge who was reportedly in the room when Smith received the revelation.

"If a man is worth a $1000, the interest on that would be $60, and one/10. of the interest will be of course $6. thus you see the plan," Partridge wrote in a letter just days after the revelation was received.

According to Harper, six percent was a common interest rate at the time.

"Though the Saints' original understanding of tithing need not (and, in fact, does not) control how tithing functions today, it is fascinating to see the radically different understanding our religious forebears had of tithing," wrote Sam Brunson, associate professor of law at Loyola University Chicago, in an online blog post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2020 11:09AM by CrispingPin.

There is an expression, "Do you want gross blessings (for paying tithing,) or net blessings?" There is encouragement to pay on gross earnings, but some people pay on net, and a few on surplus (what is left after you pay for essential expenses.)

There are lots of abuses related to tithing as well. Some church members have been asked by their bishops to pay tithing on such things as Social Security, insurance payouts, disability payments, scholarships, and inheritances.

The Mormon church also has its hand out for other collections as well, such as the missionary fund, fast offerings, etc. Plus the church does not adequately fund activities on the ward level, so members are constantly reaching into their pockets to provide for ward activities. I remember one exmo on this board estimated that a full third of his income was lost to the church.

ChurchCo is plainly almost undeniably more about $$$ than it is about members living Christ-Like lives.

Bishops & SP are evaluated on how many butts in the seats & tithing receipts / % of TR holders there are in their areas.

'what can't be measured doesn't count'

The Afossils, a while back, voted themselves exempt from tithing. Obviously ghawd inspired them to do so. I say this because there are no scriptural references supporting such a rule,this leaving 'inspiration' as the source. Obviously the sheep lower their approval.

Similarly, ghawd inspired me to declare myself also exempt from tithing. I bear testimony of this in the name of Even,

ghawd seldom <doesn't> know(s) what's best for the Afossils & EOD; just a small % of those occurrences have been mentioned on RfM, MormonThink, & other sites...

I'd list them here, but I need to catch up reading 'the most correct book'; But First I have to decide which book that is!

Happy 4th, Everyone :)

How do they make sure you're paying enough?

They ALWAYS demands more!

You pay them in back rooms.

It shows in the front room.

Blank stares
No stars
Evil eyes

Empty words
Empty pews
Empty people

They want you to make more only so they can make more.

To do LESS with

MormonMartinLuther Wrote:
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>

I like corn... off the COB.

I make things up. I put things down.

Is that what you mean?

Thank you MML

Your statements have totally encapsulated the LDS con that you must have worked in the Church Office Building or they should recruit you. Just making a joke but spot on!

This is why you end up with $100B in bank is when you go beyond Lord's law of tithing and have people paying at minimum 12% to 50% of their earnings after all the extra donations and government entitlements are taken out depending on what country you are in.

What happens when mormons lose money in their retirement funds? Does that mean they tithed 60% to 70%? They are never allowed to stop paying or get any tithing credit for that because let's be honest the Lord didn't bless them there. 2008 anyone? 202x anyone?

Whatever happened to when asked if apostles need more money - they say we have sufficient for our means? They have more than sufficient for their means and not it is just the signs of an apostate church.

Cash income was never subject to tithe in Biblical times.

Even the strictest Orthodox Jews today don't tithe, because (among many reasons) there's no temple to send it to.

Tithing is explained very clearly in the Bible. It was a sort of a property tax used to support the Levites, who weren't given an allotment of land. It was a portion of the agricultural products produced on tribal land in Israel. For animals it was "the tenth" not "A tenth", so If you had 15 sheep you owed one sheep, not 1 and a half.

Tradesmen and other wage earners didn't have to pay 10% of their income. Fisherman didn't have to give 10% of their catch either because they didn't live off the land.