I’m somewhat appalled at the recent posting on this board. They are very philosophical and, in most cases, erudite. However, in my mind these arguments represent almost a pathological denial of most of our pasts. Presumptively most of us have a Mormon connection in our past.

I may be mistaken but I don’t think anyone was converted to Mormonism by empirical reasoning but were converted by testimonial evidence and/or spiritism. Taking these arguments out of the philosophical and squarely acknowledging that people lie and that the best defense against lying is empirical evidence as opposed to the other alternatives. Yes, you can be deceived in any number of ways. Ironically, you be deceived by empirical evidence, possibly for two hundred years until the technology is achieved that can invalidate an erroneous presumption. However, assuming that the idea of a Christian God dates back approximately 6,000 years there is no more evidence for his existence now then there was when the idea was first introduced.

Name some people who lie,lie,lie.
And give of evidence of this god.

I would note that "the idea of a Christian God" only goes back 2,000 years.

But your point is apt. A lot of people leave Mormonism and other cults but retain a belief in the supernatural or at least non-empirically-verified views. I don't have a problem when people acknowledge that they are choosing faith over reason, but when some insist that their faith, be it religious or political, is overrides scientific fact they are not only unreasonable but dangerous.

The real "cancel culture" is denying scientifically established fact.

+Lot's Wife:
"I would note that "the idea of a Christian God" only goes back 2,000 years."

==There is no such thing as a Christian God.
Chrisianity is an extension of judaism. It is a new version, just like Windows XP is a new version in the Win NT line.

They took judaism and just tacked on Jesus.
I would call chrisianity ==== judaism version 2.0
islam ==== judaism version 3.0
mormonism ==== judaism version 4.0
There are of course a bunch of jewish sects, christian sects, etc. Those are subversions.

In all these religion, there is just the jewish god.
Mormonism is an exception since everyone becomes a god or has the potential to become a god.

~~~~iceman9090



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2020 04:21PM by iceman9090.

iceman9090 Wrote:
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> ...just like Windows XP is a new version
> in the Win NT line.

Or Judaism is MSDOS and Christianity is Windows.

That would explain why Bill Gates thinks he’s God.

What the heck are you talking about? The words you use in your post sound a bit erudite.

I think, Honorary Rastafarian, that he is suggesting that evidence trumps belief.

Now please don't bogart that thing.

Speaking of Bogart, I wonder if this movie is any good?

https://www.metro.us/beat-the-devil-is-the-movie-that-pissed-off-humphrey-bogart/

Who said you couldn't have a great time making "art?"

Yes, people lie, lie, lie, but if they do it with style all is forgiven?

How much of your money did you give to the church so that they could send their kids to Princeton while I sent mine to a community college? I'm less apt to forgive no matter how stylish the con.

OK, now you're making stuff up. I went to BYU and knew several GA children there, from the G Hinckley and BR McConkie families, so pretty top shelf. I also grew up back east, and Princeton was in the same mission I lived in (Eastern States Mission), as were some other pretty tony universities. Those branches always had a smattering of LDS graduate students, mostly from Utah.

We envied those branches, because they always had a fresh supply of Utah Mormon college grads who were going places, and my town was very blue collar. If there had been GA children at those universities, I almost certainly would have heard about it from obsessively TBM mom. She was very tuned in to that sort of thing.

So, while there were no doubt some undergrad GA kids at fancy schools, there was no social conveyor belt hauling them off to Princeton and the like.

Duke, Stanford (a few), Yale, etc. Not interested in a research project in this area. I can't find the one that I thought went to Princeton. Would have to go through all GA's children. My point is that I think there are the workers and then they are the "Queen's" in the hive.

The class distinction in the church is member - you'll get the good stuff in the after. General authority - God chosen royalty - you get the good stuff now.

That's what I figured was being said. Odd way to word it IMO.

And no worries, I share :)_

Is this movie any good?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness

"Good" would be very subjective. I find it more interesting as a blast from our past when weed was being used as propaganda. I have it in my collection.

I'll bet you play the piano.

From what I've heard, that film is "so bad it's good." It's on my "To Watch" list for that reason.

Reefer Madness is so outlandish that it has become a cult flick.

BKP said, "Sometimes things that are true are not very useful." Sometimes lies are. Wasn't that the insinuation?


Truth has evidence to support. Lies have evidence that discredit.

Time is on the side of only one. Lies come with a sell-by date. No lie.

He also said if you lie to yourself enough you will eventually believe it.

One of the amazing things about Mormonism is that many of its foundational precepts can be discredited by empirical evidence. Which brings us back to your post Elder Berry.

With the current state of the evidence invalidating Mormonism they should by now have no problem with "social distancing". Unfortunately that is not the case.

And mythology just gets weirder and more unbelievable the further back into human history one goes.

Religion has always been mythological. That’s a problem in the modern age because the stories get taken literally. Most religious people think there was a historical Jesus, Moses, Muhammad, etc. when the stories were written in a time when the target audience was expected to take them as allegorical. Joseph (or Rigdon) took it upon himself to remix them to create his own religion while inventing literal gods and angelic beings. Now the church has to backpedal to more allegorical ground due to the literal truth claims unraveling. They can’t do it because of institutional rot, so they double down on provably false doctrine and hope nobody will notice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2020 07:11PM by bradley.

Can you adduce any evidence that the bulk of adherents interpreted their religions metaphorically in the early stages of those faiths' evolution? I think you cannot.

Joe just wanted to start a cult, not "lead" people, worship God, or 'Act Naturally'.

He was building his mansions in this world not the next. He was promising people theirs in the next.

It makes sense to me now.

Mormonism is a lie that by virtue of us participating on this small forum most likely has crossed our paths in some way, for better or for worse.

Yet, many of us went on believing it for a period of time even after things showed us it wasn't what it claimed to be. I call that a need. It is the same reason we believe anything anybody else tells us to.

What I look for now is how does it impact my life?
God needs more money but won't give clearer reasons for it. No thanks.

The media needs me to not say anything because it isn't how it appears. No thanks.

It takes two.

MormonMartinLuther Wrote:
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> God needs more money but won't give clearer
> reasons for it.

Sure there is.

"According to the complaint, Ensign’s president, Roger Clarke, has told others that the amassed funds would be used in the event of the second coming of Christ."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/mormon-church-has-misled-members-on-100-billion-tax-exempt-investment-fund-whistleblower-alleges/2019/12/16/e3619bd2-2004-11ea-86f3-3b5019d451db_story.html

lol after all the great destruction in the land, the Nephites knew the savior would appear. Accordingly, the Bank of Zarahemla made 100 million seons immediately payable to Jesus in the form of a cashier's check. The Savior accepted the check and said he would go away for a time and enjoy a well needed vacation but he would return and demand even 10 times 10 of this amount.

The Mormon Church has been forever preparing for fulfillment of this prophecy whereupon the Savior can finally afford his dream home in the Seychelles and retire living like the King of all Kings.

Ah The Seychelles. I would love to just visit someday.

Let me propose a hypothetical situation. You are being proselyted by a Mormon, a Jehovah Witness, a Christian Scientist, a Seventh Day Adventist, a Catholic, a Methodist, an Evangelical, a Lutheran, a Presbyterian and a Baptist (you had to give up your day job because of all the activity on your front doorstep).

How would you determine who was telling the truth and please don’t give me the Mormon missionary version?

Hairstyles.

In the Seattle area where I grew up, mormons were quite a minority and we stuck together. MIA on every Wednesday night, large church dances somewhere in the area every Friday and Saturday night, and then there was church on Sundays. This was before the block program. So you spent all day from early morning to night at church and when your ward wasn't in some kind of session you stayed flirted with the girls from the other wards. Even though I was a relative nerd in highschool, I dated more beautiful girls in most months, than most of the popular football jocks at school dated in a year. And that didn't include the girls I was just friends with. Somehow with all of the church youth activities and going to youth conference and Especially For Youth held at BYU in the summers, seemed at the time to provide more access to meet other teenagers my age at the time and a safe environment and for the girls to feel safe dating a stranger, that I can't see anything else providing a better social life for most kids. At that time, it didn't really matter to me whether or not the church was true. I was in. Somewhere along the way you start actually believing that religion crap and end up going on a mission (a real bate and switch).

So I wasn't exactly converted by empiricle reason nor testimonial evidence. No kid in his or her right mind would walk away from the social life like the one that me and all of my friends had.

Very interesting comment. I forgot about that - the social aspect of the church. I've got to admit that that was not only a powerful influence in your life but also in my own. By that I mean it also has bearing on members as they grow older.

Birdman to try to answer your question (since I had to give up my day job to handle all the activity lol)

How would I know who was telling the truth?

I would know based on who came to my door.

The fact that they came to my door at all would mean it wasn't true and it wasn't for me - it was for them. That is the nature of most of the people who you don't know that come to your door. They are trying to push a product for them, to get them rich, not you. You are just the means to their end.

Vacuum cleaner, pest control and security alarm salespeople, politicians, fast offerings/boy scouts collection - you usually are giving them something that they want, not what you want. The people that have something that I want are content to hold on to it and not try to give it away.

Entirely social, dressed up to look spiritual...