One of the frequent topics on this forum is: do the Apostles and Prophets know about problems with the book of mormon etc. Just saw a mormon stories episode about BH Roberts and his questioning of the Book of Mormon. Looks like all the apostles and GAs have known since at least 1922.

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/b-h-roberts/

Though not addressed in the book about BH Roberts, they also knew about problems with the G of GP since 1912.

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/nytimes1912papyrus.htm

Looks like they know, they cover up and they continue to LIE!!!

Yes, but they are telling a gentle, total and painful fib because in the long run, they benefit!

Everybody likes a lie that promotes and elevates personal status! This is why many people teach hate.

ChurchCo lies & enables others to lie? I'M SHOCKED, SHOCKED I TELL YOU!

We’ll always have Provo.

We thank thee oh God for a lying POS.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2020 02:33PM by bradley.

We have always been at War with East Provo!

Or so it seems to me...

Round up the usual apologists.

After LDS Inc was gifted parts of the original papyrus from which the BoA was "translated", and which JS claimed was written by the hand of Abraham, I figure, aha, finally something concrete that can actually be tested.

I mean, there is no real way to verify the First Vision. You can't prove that God didn't institute polygamy, etc etc.

But we can read and translate hieroglyphics now. And we can carbon-date the material, and the age of the documents is right in the sweet spot where carbon dating works best.


Turns out the document was a garden variety burial scroll - "here lies John Doe, please give him safe passage into the afterlife" - that sort of thing. And both the carbon date, and the writing style date to near the time of Christ, and not 2000 BCE, which would have been the reputed time of Abraham.

I was in college when all this happened. I had had serious reservations about the historicity of the BoM, but as far as I was concerned, the proof against the BoA was iron-clad. JS made the whole damn thing up, period.

I'm sure the GAs of the late 1960s realized the exact same thing.

There is a great treatment of the episode in "Studies of the Book of Mormon" by B.H. Roberts. The preface was written by Sterling McMurrin and it covers Roberts' meeting with the Q15, their failure to take his points seriously, and his subsequent complete loss of faith in the BOM.

Yeah, I did a whole FB rant about this episode. Just because I just used to wink and laugh at some of the "testimonies" and psuedo-science that was used to back up the BoM and Lamanite archeology, etc... Then I watched/listened to episode and as Shannon Caldwell Montez discovered about Roberts and other LDS intellectuals and leaders they knew that the BoM was false. over 100 years ago. They actively and purposefully chose to cover up and lie to protect the church.

If they would of used the BoM as faith promoting inspirations or parables to help live a more "Christian" life they could of still kept their church together and keep their rites, creeds, etc... as a "Restorationism" or "Primative Church" based gospel they would of had more morality and humanity and trustworthiness than what they have now.

In his speeches BY never relied on the BoM. He quoted from the Bible.

And after the debacle with the Q15, BH Roberts stopped testifying about the BoM and relied on the D&C instead.

Like today, the perspicacious ones realize the myth is not factually based and move instead to metaphorical Mormonism, an option not permitted for the lay members.

Strange how polygamist Mormons love the D&C more than The Book of Mormon and mainstream Mormons the Bible.

The fundies are of course right about the D&C. THAT is the foundation of the church, not the wishy-washy Protestantism informing the BoM.

Makes sense. It does have polygamy in it.

Not just polygamy. The fundies also live by the original Word of Wisdom, meaning they drink coffee and a bit of alcohol, and there is no "break" in the traditions and practices around 1890. So yes, polygamy is the big issue but the culture is more generally loyal to the church's origins.

I remember once getting to know a fundie family and was stunned to realize that they were the real keepers of the Mormon flame. JS and BY would be much more comfortable in their company than with the Q15 in SLC.

I'd be more comfortable in their company than that of the Q15 Clan, hangers on, sycophants and such.

Except that those fundies sexually molest children and routinely steal from the government and others. They may be more true to the original Mormonism, but that is not in my mind enough to render their behavior remotely palatable.

I fear/revile them and their influence more than the church itself because of the children.

Darnit!

I came expecting the retelling of a secret meeting where one apostle finally broke down and asked the other:

"Dieter you seeing God since your promotion?"

No not at all! You Rasband?

"No! Hey Jeffrey, I have been asking around and none of us have actually seen God. What is up with that? I was going to ask Bednar but I knew he would just bullsh*t us. What do make of it?"

Hmmm wow all this time none of us have actually seen God but we thought someone else did. Well we should clear this up with the members right away!