YAY !!!

Now they need to get rid of the racist owner.

==============================================



"The Washington NFL franchise officially retired its racist name and logo."


https://indiancountrytoday.com/news/retired-washington-nfl-team-leaves-racist-name-behind-pa0kLXIJ70uvMgEntv-xag

It wasn't just Dan Snyder. The fan base refused to budge for years as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2020 05:04PM by summer.

It took Fed-Ex, Nike and Amazon to make the change. Snyder doesn't listen to reason or sentiment, he only listens to money.
Cleveland Indians are next and then, maybe the KC Chiefs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2020 02:03PM by stillanon.

Probably not the Chiefs. Just sayin'.

" fan base refused to budge" ... so you are admitting that structural racism is actually a thing.

IN ~ b 4 ~ the fighting irish are next ~

if people were like, "I don't like this leprechaun dude representing us, and I hate the pugilist stereotype," I'd support them 100%.

Beth, I don’t and I’m almost 1/2 Irish

While we're at it, let's ditch the Kansas City Chiefs, the Atlanta Braves and the Cleveland Indians. If your shorts are in a wad because of the reference the name Redskins makes to skin color, then we need to get rid of the Cleveland Browns.

The Carolina Panthers obviously were named to keep the memory of militant Blacks from the 60's alive.

The New York Yankees offend the Southern population. Do you see a team named for the Confederacy?

One can be offended by the blatant references to the Catholic religion like the New Orleans Saints, the Los Angeles Angels or the San Diego Padres.

Then there are the team names that glorify criminals who raped and pillaged like the Oakland Raiders, the Minnesota Vikings, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the Pittsburgh Pirates!

The Milwaukee Brewers. Well that goes without saying. Wrong message to our children.

As a die-hard Oregon State fan, I suggest it might also make some sense to change the name of the Oregon State women's athletic teams to something other than "the Beavers", especially when they play Southern California. Do we really want the Trojans sticking it to the Beavers???

tumwater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do we really want the
> Trojans sticking it to the Beavers???

Make love not war and do away with all professions of sports. Play ball without it being your career.

By the way, the New York AL franchise stole the name "Yankees" from New Englanders. Think: "A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur's Court." So yes, "Yankees" has to go.

Yeah, I could never understand why New England went with Yankees rather than Wankers, the obvious alternative.

Right. A Yankee is a generational New Englander. It is not considered an insult, except perhaps in the south. :o)

And in the UK.

Don't they use it to mean Americans generally, though?

Yes, but it is a term of mild derision.

Rhyming slang...septic tanks. Definitely derogatory.

No problem. Why would it be?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2020 11:05PM by anybody.

So the cleveland browns denotes a skin color ?

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So the cleveland browns denotes a skin color ?


Don't know the thinking that went on to use the term "Browns". But in these times Brown often refers to people of Hispanic heritage.

It can be easily construed as racist if they were named the "Cleveland Blacks".

They were named after Paul Brown.

Bingo!

It's hard to tote around a dead body. It's much easier to scalp Indians and present several redskins at a time for payment. Much more efficient.

Good post, tumwater. I may agree with changing the Redskins name, but your point is well taken.

The Texas Rangers name also has to go.


The problem with all this, and the statues coming down etc, is that it’s still just symbolism, nothing of substance. It changes nothing.

The neoliberal elite and their corporate media mouthpieces don’t mind this one bit. It’s like painting “Black Lives Matter” on the sidewalk. It gives cover for doing nothing at all about any of the actual problems that neoliberalism wrecks upon the shrinking middle class and the ever expanding working class (not to mention America’s untouchables, the homeless, the addicted, etc). As Jon Stewart was lamenting to Joe Rogan recently, how is it that we’re still stuck with mere symbolic gestures?

It reminds me of this cult-like belief that everything will be better once we remove a President. No, it won’t. The problem isn’t the President, it’s the system that gave you the President. And the problem isn’t that the system is broken, the problem is that the system is fixed.

Public symbols are powerful, and maybe updating some of them is in order; but don’t be lulled into believing that anything fundamental is changed by changing them.

Lord.

Have you ever had to attend a school named after a traitor who fought to keep your family, and by extension you, enslaved? Have you ever been on a school trip where there were monuments to traitors who fought to keep your family, and by extension you, enslaved? Have you ever lived on a street named after a traitor who fought to keep your family, and by extension you, enslaved?

Don't discount the power of symbolism. The statues were erected DECADES after the Civil War as symbols of how awesome slavery was. They were erected to keep black people in their place and to make poor white people proud that at least they weren't black.

Removing these statues acknowledges that these are racist symbols erected to honor traitors who *liked* slavery. They were like, Slavery is a GOOD THING.

Sweet baby jesus, who would want such hateful things in public spaces? Who would want these racist traitors in prominent places to be revered by those who walk by? People *revere* these traitorous bastards.

Removing them is the right thing to do. Put them in a museum with context. Who is this person? What did they do? When did they do it? Who was the artist? Why did they choose that medium? Who erected the statue? Why was it placed where it was placed?

The Statue of Liberty was sent to us to *celebrate* the end of American slavery. There is a broken chain on her (I think right) ankle. The history of how that statue came to be, how it was gifted, how the spot was chosen, what the artist was thinking...that's good stuff.

Give us that shit for the traitor statues. In a museum for monuments to traitors. Call that shit exactly what it is. Reckon with it, and then maybe, just maybe, we'll be able to take the next step.

Look at all the people who lose their collective shit when a flag is burned. That's a powerful symbol, and because it is so powerful, it's protected political speech.

We can't leapfrog to where you think we should be, Human. First we have to have the guts to call these monuments, flags, songs what they are. They are racist monuments to American traitors who fought to keep my ancestors, and by extension *me*, enslaved.

If we can't do something as simple as that, we are truly fucked.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2020 07:12PM by Beth.

Take the symbols down; got it.

But I’d trade every single one of them, every image of a raping, murdering monster I’d keep up if you guys could have:

M4All

A living (not minimum) wage

Debt relief

A foreign policy not based on constant, non-stop slaughter

Free College

Etc

I’d keep every Robert E. Lee stone image up, if you all could have at least that much (for a start).

And by the way, are we allowed the images of FDR and Eisenhower? Because that tag-team (fuck Truman) is the image of what it will take to right this American ship for the benefit of all rather than the tiniest few at every one else’s expense (neoliberalism).

Anyway, I’m sorry. I’m blabbering on your thread.

Cheers

Keeping these statues up where they are doesn't jibe with your desire for equality. And I believe you to be sincere. (And this isn't my thread, so no worries - we can crap all over Dave's threads anytime we want.)

What you are asking for is impossible to achieve in a society that celebrates treating people as other. We can extend that argument to alllllllll the northern bastards who sent substitutes in their stead to fight a war they really didn't give a shit about, and to the bastards that caused the Triangle Shirtwaist catastrophe - I mean, we have some serious, serious issues when it comes to race, gender and class.

I love our motto. "E pluribus unum" is aspirational. I love how we acknowledged that each colony was a nation state. I dig the colonies that aspired to be commonwealths. I love the huge fucking potential and the political philosophies that undergird our dysfunctional country.

We are a young country. We're not even a blip in history. Maybe we need to get knocked on our asses to decide what it means to be one out of many. Do we really want to be?

Apologies if I've moved from history to politics. I didn't mean to, and I'm a bit worked up right now. ;-) If the post has got to go, I'm okay with that and won't scream bloody murder. <-- Yes, I'm trying to inoculate my post. I'm nothing if not transparent.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2020 10:09PM by Beth.

>>to fight a war they really didn't give a shit about,<<

...and they still kicked your ass into the ground until your generals unconditionally surrendered. Imagine if the union DID give a shit.

Our (the United States of America) one concession to "the confederacy" was letting Jeff Davis and his terrorist gang go free. At least they knew enough to skulk home and stfu.

> The problem with all this, and the statues coming
> down etc, is that it’s still just symbolism,
> nothing of substance. It changes nothing.

> Public symbols are powerful

You need to make up your mind. The truth is that symbols are powerful, they are substantial because they indicate society's values.

Is that the end of the story? No. But you cannot get to racial and police reform without the symbolism: it is a necessary precondition.

Also there is nothing about changing symbols that precludes changing systems. It is not either-or. We can and should do both.

Can you imagine making all the substantial changes but not getting rid of the statuary?

I cannot. The symbols must go (although I see that as to museums rather than to the slag heaps).

“I don't care that much about the statues.” NP

I'm sorry, what?

don't forget the local softball team, the Tumwater Dickheads . . . .

you good with that? :)

Inimitable.

Nice. Having native americans as logos was always weird to my brain.

Agreed. Say Germany had a sports team named The Hamburg Hebrews. I think it would be easy to see the problem with that name.

+Beth:
"Agreed. Say Germany had a sports team named The Hamburg Hebrews. I think it would be easy to see the problem with that name."

==Or if a turkish sports team had a named like the Greeks with their eyes removed.

~~~~iceman9090

Or if the Turkish named a sports team after Albanians.

I still can't believe they haven't had to reckon with that act of genocide.

Armenians, I think you mean.

And it was indeed horrible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2020 08:07PM by Lot's Wife.

Yeahhhhh, that's exactly what I meant, and I'm going to keep my goof up there.

I will admit that after reading your and Iceman's posts, I spent a couple of minutes trying to devise the name of an Armenian sports team for use in Turkey.

Armenian Ants? Armenian Ardvarks?

I couldn't think of anything good but was primed for your post on the Albanians, who incidentally were slaughtered in about 1913 but by Serbs, Macedonians, etc. That was a genocide that wasn't possible till the Turks were driven out of the Balkans.

I appreciate it when you clean up after me.

Yeah - don't want to tackle the run up to WWI today.

Unrelated, I think you should start a never-ending thread about creating an RfM book club, facilitated by you, with titles available on Libby and/or Overdrive - some of us use the library, yo - and be book clubby. I've never been in a book club, so why not?

But if I listed the books you and I read, I'd reveal the extent of my cultural Marxism and be exiled to the re-education camps in TX or AZ and compelled to help build the Wall.

Can't risk that, now can I?!

Books about religion - on topic stuff. C'mon. How else could you get a never-ending thread?

Which religions practice restorative justice, and how does that practice benefit that community?

Start with the Eastern State Penitentiary.


Thanks in advance!

At various times it has been acceptable to take the name of defeated enemies and sometimes it has been done out of respect for the defeated and as a way of boosting the victor's esteem. The British Grenadier Guards comes to mind, a regiment that took the name of their defeated foe. Nobody takes a name they don't want to reflect their own self worth.

I seem to recall a visit to Jamestown some years ago and the guide saying that the term "redskin" referred to the die the Indians covered their faces with rather than the color of their. Don't know if that is true skin but if it offends... The University of Utah used to refer to their basketball team as the "running redskins" but dropped it quite a few years ago in favor of simply the Utes which was approved by the tribe so named.

I'm not disagreeing with you - you made me think of a point I'd like to make.

If there weren't photographic proof of lynching parties, some people might not believe that such things existed although black people have a strong collective memory of it. The same can be said about the word "redskin." People who didn't want to believe that it meant a bounty on Native People said prove that it meant a bounty on Native People despite the collective memory of its use.

Finally someone found proof: https://indiancountrytoday.com/archive/seeking-250-reward-settlers-hunted-for-redskin-scalps-during-extermination-e-m9B_A2N79k-hEF9bbit0IQ

I'm a fan of skepticism. I think it's healthy. But there are times, especially within a socio-economic context, that people need to just shut up and listen. Again, I'm not referring to you, kentish.

Maybe people don't want to believe that there was a time when people were paid to kill NDNs. But there was. That collective memory is painful. It was genocide. People were paid to kill First Nation people. And they had to prove that they killed them or they wouldn't get paid.

I don't know why it's so hard to believe that some nasty shit has gone down in this country.

Again, this isn't addressed to you, kentish.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2020 05:54PM by Beth.

Looks like I'll have to add my Redskins t-shirt to my two other favorite "retired" sports team t-shirts -

https://www.ebbets.com/products/atlanta-crackers-1940-t-shirt

https://teelotus.com/product/fighting-whities/?attribute_pa_style=shirt&attribute_pa_color=white&attribute_pa_size=l&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIs5iUhrfL6gIVBL7ACh2bgQgmEAQYCyABEgLXRPD_BwE

This is the ancient city of Teotihuacan.

https://universes.art/en/art-destinations/mexico/tour/teotihuacan

The city was ransacked sometime in the seventh century AD.

No one really knows exactly why, but there is reason to believe that Teotihuacan experienced episodes of internal unrest and social upheaval that eventually ended urban activity in the city. Prominent areas the city were burned while less developed area of the city were largely left untouched.

This is a statue of Ramesses the Great.
Ramesses erected colossal statues of himself all over Egypt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II

Why? We see these monuments as Egyptian art. But what else were they? Were they just symbols of his authority or was he a ruthless dictator? We don't know with any certainty.

In the case of Kim Il-Sung, we do know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansu_Hill_Grand_Monument.

But what would an alien civilisation who had no knowledge of Earth history or languages think? They would just see the statues and portraits without knowing what they represented.

Now we come to the current monument situation.

The vast majority of Confederate monuments in America were erected during the Jim Crow era as part of the "Lost Cause" revisionist history movement. They never thought the time would come when people would reject the ideology that erected them.

Confederate Statue Pulled Down in Durham, NC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPYGmFpaPt4

Things change. Attitudes change.

The racist attitudes Joe Smith and others put in "The Book Of Mormon" didn't last forever. They didn't foresee a time when people would find racism repugnant.

Monuments are for the living, not the dead.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2020 11:15PM by anybody.

I'm wondering what the new team name will be.

Any takers for "bullets?"

I'm cracking a joke. The Washington basketball team used to be called the Bullets but that grew controversial because it seemed to bless gun violence, so the team switched to the Wizards.

There's no chance that the football team could ever be called the Bullets.

If they had started with the red white and blue skins it wouldn't need to change a thing.

I like the idea the Navajo Nation has put forward. The Code Talkers.

Seattle Mariners invaded SODO from Puget Sound ala the Seafair Pirates who in past times took license to abuse women (like trump, another story), so their name is on the list also:

Seattle Mediocres ?

Last Place - Never in World Series ?

(hate to say it) Seattle Losers?

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seattle Mariners invaded SODO from Puget Sound ala
> the Seafair Pirates who in past times took license
> to abuse women (like trump, another story), so
> their name is on the list also:
>
> Seattle Mediocres ?
>
> Last Place - Never in World Series ?
>
> (hate to say it) Seattle Losers?


The Mariners are forever in a rebuilding mode. The only time they did anything was Lou Piniella was coach. He played and used up the players he was given, none of the bringing players along slowly thought.

So is the name Red Skins up for grabs? South Park got it right.

Lamanites already put in a bid for it, Sorry...