Bishop of Holladay ward in Utah sent a letter to us members to get back to church and church vacation is over. Very few are going back and I bet LDSINC is scared of attendance not returning.

They’re scared of money not returning.

^^^^ This!!! ^^^^^

Bps love butts in the pews, it makes it seem they're selling something attractive - wanted...

Yeah right.


Oh, & also helps their stats, that too.

They also love the tithing money that comes in.

I've talked to 3 uber TBMs from multi generational TBM families who love staying at home on Sundays. They're the cream of the LDS crop and they are not eager to return.

I talked to a faithful TBM teen who attended early morning seminary. She was so happy to have the extra hour to sleep in when the pandemic started and seminary was canceled. She didn't miss seminary at all.

It's not a good sign when TBM church members are happy to stay away. Doesn't look good for LDS Inc.

The truth comes out!!

Church isn't a blessing you have been deprived of, and you finally have a chance to reincorporate it in your life.

It's an imposition, and you finally had a guilt-free way to get it out of your life. Well, the vacation is over. Get back in harness and start plowing, maggots.


The bishop lurched uncontrollably into the truth.

If the brainwashing is interrupted for too long and the sheep do not see others of the flock blindly following the leader they may just catch on that there is a better way of life outside the constraints of moronism and the sky will not fall on them.

They know that nursery and Primary are Petri dishes for viruses under normal circumstances. How many moms are going to send their kids into that after having the fear of Covid drilled into them?

The fact that they’re starting up when it’s obviously not yet safe should be causing Mormons to question the wisdom of the leaders. They’ve already admitted that garmies don’t protect you and priesthood blessings don’t prevent or cure the virus. If you have no faith in God and no faith in the medical establishment, where does that leave you? Maybe with their one true God the almighty dollar, but that’s getting a bit shaky too.

This is where lies get you. Maybe they feel they are just the cost of doing business. Those chains do get heavy.

The Mormon dilemma is just like Trump's. Both prosper through large gatherings of people who are emotionally vulnerable. Both stand to lose their power if those people realize the emperor has no clothes--or at least no empahty. So the White House and the church share an incentive to "reopen" as fast as they can.

What that means for the president is becoming increasingly clear. The LDS church will be hard pressed to achieve a better outcome.

Yep.

Maybe Mormons can bring back their own militia to round up members by force and haul them to church.

2:36am? Holy smokes and that would be "empathy" by the way.
In addition to my previous advice of not letting others trigger you so much, I would also work on getting more sleep. Also, follow forum guidelines by avoiding politics in your many posts. We want to hear about your exmormon life, not your political leanings. Sheesh.

Ted, I used to treat you with respect. But somehow you developed a hard-on for me.

Please, someone hold my purse.


-----------------
> 2:36am?

That's pretty foolish. Are you familiar with the notion of "time zones?"


----------------
> Holy smokes and that would be "empathy"
> by the way.

What does that mean? Am I supposed to "empathize" with the LDS church?


-----------------
> In addition to my previous advice of not letting
> others trigger you so much,

It is you who get triggered. You originally were pretty balanced, but since you decided for some reason your manhood was at stake you seem to get triggered whenever I express political views with which you disagree.

Are you uncomfortable with challenges to your residual priesthood power? To your obvious intellectual prowess?


-----------------
> I would also work on
> getting more sleep.

If I were you, I would work on getting more therapy.


-----------------------
> Also, follow forum guidelines
> by avoiding politics in your many posts.

Thank you for your advice. Perhaps you should share it with the moderators; perhaps you should explain the rules to them.


--------------------
> We want
> to hear about your exmormon life, not your
> political leanings. Sheesh.

I couldn't care less about what you "want to hear."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2020 03:55PM by Lot's Wife.

They will send them to those Petri dishes at least, the ones in Utah will, since from what I've heard, schools in Utah are opening instead of doing distance learning.

Once the genie is out of the bottle it is hard to push him back in.

Kentish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Once the genie is out of the bottle it is hard to
> push him back in.

"Him". Ha! :)

My Mom wants to return, but only when it's safe. Her locale in Cali has a "target" date in Aug, but that all depends if the CV cases begin to decrease.

Let's also keep in mind that a lot of mormons are also anti-vaxxers (especially the essential oils hucksters). So even if/when a vaccine is available, there's no real assurance that the virus is absent from any given meeting or assembly.

Under those circumstances, it may *never* be truly safe to return to church.

Assuming a pretty effective vaccine (no guarantee there, but could happen) it doesn't matter much if your friends and neighbors are anti-vaxxers, if you and yours are vaccinated. So, a tiny bit of poetic justice there.

I also disagree that "a lot" of Mormons are anti-vaxxers. I suspect they have more than their fair share, but I doubt it is a large slice of the Mo population.

Mormons punch way above their weight in various forms of nut-jobbery, as is routinely discussed here. That's what makes them so endlessly fascinating.

Speaking for myself, I'm not expecting a vaccine, even a "pretty effective" one, to act as a silver bullet against Covid. To start, I think we can agree that Covid is far worse than the common flu, so let's use that as a baseline.

Flu vaccines are nothing near 100% preventive. According to the CDC, the current flu vaccine is only 45% effective against the current crop of flu viruses: 37% against strain A and 50% against strain B.

https://www.aafp.org/news/health-of-the-public/20200226interimfluve.html

That's about as effective as it generally gets (per the article), and this 45% is the best we can do even with a virus that we are much more familiar with, and have years of experience fighting. Expecting better numbers against a novel CV, and on our initial try, doesn't seem all that reasonable to me.

Second, we still don't know how long antibody-based immunity lasts. There’s some evidence that people can be reinfected not long after supposedly recovering from Covid. Also, antibody count appears to decline after just a few months, calling the very idea of long-term immunity into question. That doesn't bode well for any prospective vaccine, if everyone needs booster shots every few months instead of once a year. Covid hasn't been seasonal like the regular flu; it's shown itself to be a year-round bug.

Finally, there's mutation. Covid has already mutated once, from the original China D strain to the Europe G strain that got into the US. The mutation made it more contagious but fortunately not more lethal. If/when it mutates again, who knows what the effect will be on humans, and whether it will render any vaccines we've developed more powerful – or useless, forcing us to start all over again.

https://www.biospace.com/article/mutated-covid-19-viral-strain-in-us-and-europe-much-more-contagious/

While being vaccinated will offer some protection, I still think there will be continued risk in attending church, especially if those vaccinated let their guard down and imagine the world is back to pre-covid normal.

Yeah, I seem to get the flu even after my flu shots. Maybe it helps reduce the number of times I get it, or the severity, but the flue shots don't seem to 100% effective with me. Imagine that same effectiveness with the much more dangerous COVID.

There was an article in the New England Journal of Medicine yesterday. Challenge trials were conducted on non-human primates who were given the Moderna mRNA Covid-19 vaccine. The primates were then exposed to the live coronavirus. In these primates, the vaccine stopped the virus in its tracks. The primates showed no signs of infection. This is very preliminary data, but IMO it give reason to have hope.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2024671

I’m picturing a “Planet of the Apes” scenario.

My pessimism is a bit out of control. I think only the fringes and marginally committed folks will stop going. If a ward has a nasty outbreak that kills some people, that MIGHT convince a FEW people that the leaders were wreckless in bringing them back.

It is absolutely dangerous to return to a church. The denomination, if you can call this church a denomination, is irrelevant. A large newly built church near my home had a grand opening 4 weeks ago. Foolishly they held the meeting indoors. It is a Pentecostal group. I wrote to them prior to their opening that folks would get sick and likely die. Sigh... Three have died so far and others are in ICUs at various hospitals. They lost count of how many acquired the virus. It is likely in the hundreds as suddenly our city is now a hot spot on national news. Stay away from crowds. Stay safe.

Terrible, Eric! Absolute idiocy, failure to lead, lack of rational thought, incompetence, criminal negligence - you name it.

I wonder if the leaders of such groups or events ever realize or accept that they are responsible for dealing death to their followers.

We've had recent outbreaks here, in a province that was doing well, with majority buy-in of the basic precautions and guidelines from medical experts, and low counts both in terms of numbers or cases and mortality rate. Then summer hit and younger people wanted to party and go boating. Failure to observe masking and distancing guidelines, crowding together while drinking and partying (and boating) has resulted in 80 test-positives from just one party group as well as 1000 contacts having to self-isolate for 14 days in case of having contracted the virus from close contact with one of the party-goers. In some cases, the person in isolation now (losing freedom as well as work as well as having to experience two weeks of anxiety) doesn't even know the person who potentially exposed them.

The numbers seem small in comparison to other areas but it was just one weekend in one small area and one group of party hearties. The risks are great and the carelessness contemptible.

I guess some people have to learn the hard way that others may know something more and better than they do and that with this pandemic we are all connected, literally, when it comes to needing to buy in to keep ourselves as well as others, even strangers, out of harm's way as far as it is possible with us.

No need to panic - just stay up to date with public health recommendations, employ the three main strategies (masks, distance, hygiene), use common sense and stay in your "bubble" as we call it here - the small group of people in your circle who you can trust to observe the recommended measures and who don't take needless chances of spreading contagion to others.

Our recommended bubble is 6-10 others. Mine is my sister who lives locally and her daughter, my brother who is local, and one friend who is pretty much house-bound. In an abundance of caution, I wear a mask even in her house, as I'm the one who's out and about and so much more risky to her than she is to me, although I definitely mask up when in a potentially crowded place such as while grocery shopping. It felt weird at first but you soon get used to it and it comes to seem like no big deal, even if all too many others aren't doing it. I know they say it's for the protection of others - a good reason to buy in even if only to help strangers to whom you may pass the virus unawares - but I also feel a bit protected myself in that perhaps it does cut down on transmission to me from others - I think they're not sure of that piece yet and the mask may provide more protection for its wearer than the experts are currently saying as they just don't totally know yet.

I trust you and yours are safe, Eric. Take care... everybody.

What a sorrowful situation when we secretly think, “Thank God for a pandemic. At last I can stay home!”

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What a sorrowful situation when we secretly think,
> “Thank God for a pandemic. At last I can stay
> home!”


Yes - too bad people can't just decide that they don't want to go to church, even absent a pandemic. Or at least that you don't have to go every week. It's very relaxing to be away from a controlling group that tracks its members' schedules, movements and choices.

In the real world of responsible adults who make their own choices it seems inconceivable to have ever been under an abusive thumb (whatever the source) to such an extent that we succumbed to an imposed schedule of activities rather than choosing for ourselves what we would like to do with our time.

When I said “we,” I meant the universal “we.” Most of us here at RfM stayed home long ago because we were tired of being lied to. But, how sad for those who need a pandemic to free themselves.

The infection rate is increasing rapidly. The daily death count (which had been down for a few weeks) is getting much higher. Seems like a great time to gather people together indoors.

The death count lags the infection count by about a month. It is true that current infection pool is younger, and so less likely to die, but the claims a month ago that "look, infections are spiking, but deaths are holding steady" is turning out not to be quite so rosy now.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... the claims
> a month ago that "look, infections are spiking,
> but deaths are holding steady" is turning out not
> to be quite so rosy now.

And this was predictable and predicted. However, it seems a difficult concept for some people to grasp. That 14 day lag time between being exposed and potentially becoming infected is one huge scary piece of this whole pandemic. It helps to explain why we are essentially two weeks behind in tracking the numbers. It also features large in that dreaded reality of "exponential growth".

That has been one of the most difficult pieces of the coronavirus reality to get across to people, it seems. It explains why our provincial public health officer started getting nervous when our test-positive cases recently came back at 25 and even more so when they hit 30 - laughably small numbers, seemingly, but factor in the exponential piece and the numbers climb alarmingly, which we're seeing in a current, and unusual, outbreak after a houseboat party in our province - 80 cases, 1000 contacts in isolation - the party-goers being between 20-40 yrs old - so younger demographic, likely less ill, but facing the risk of lingering or even long-lasting effects post-illness, as well as the risk of potentially having passed the virus on to an older person who may not fare as well.

There was more than one party, in the open air, which is theoretically safer than indoors. However, crowds, booze, party atmosphere - recipe for higher risk than should be taken right now, even in an area with few cases before this occurred. Plus the result is a clamp-down on further gatherings and on businesses who can ill afford to keep having to curtail their activities or even shut down due to the carelessness and needless risk-taking of others.

Encouraging people to return to gathering in church spaces in larger numbers is ill-advised, at best. I would like it to be made clear that religious leaders will be held accountable for negative outcomes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2020 04:11PM by Nightingale.

I saw a gathering of students in a student ward filing out of church last Sunday near BYU. They all had masks. IN THEIR HANDS! And they were all chatting with each other in a cluster.

In a way, it's not surprising since younger people are the ones not taking this seriously, as they're not wearing masks or social distancing. In recent days, those 18-35 have been testing positive for the virus, so they're spreading it to their family members.

They’re not stupid. They know their garments will protect them.

Perhaps if worn over the mouth and nose! ;)

Want to be bored OUT OF YOUR MIND?

Want to be somewhere else?

Want to go crazy?

Take a vacation...
And never come back!

Activity in the mormon church is not a blessing, but is a job that requires a vacation.

What can they say if a member tells them, "Based on promptings from the spirit, I'm staying away from any and all group assemblies until Jesus tells me it's safe. Jesus told me that I have Free Agency and I dang well ought to learn how to use it."

The catalyst for change, who would have guessed, the tiny Corona virus? I wouldn't have guessed but neither did God's oracle or could it be that the tiny triumphs over the all mighty?

Birdman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The catalyst for change, who would have guessed,
> the tiny Corona virus? I wouldn't have guessed
> but neither did God's oracle or could it be that
> the tiny triumphs over the all mighty?


Or maybe this is his way of shaking things up?

I do realize how inconceivable that sounds to non-believers. The age-old question of why does God allow suffering. In addition to all the other puzzlers in this universe.

I have no answers myself either...

When I mentioned the almighty I was being facetious. For example before we can have a serious discussion about what, for instance, Ralph me be doing or thinking, we need to establish that this "Ralph" actually exists.

My cousin has returned to church they are assigned when to go. It is only sacrament meeting for 45 minutes after that they clean the building wait 30 minutes and another group gets their 45 minutes. My cousins famly gets her turn about every 3 weeks now. That is in a ward in Texas.

subeamnotlogedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... assigned
> when to go... for 45 minutes, after that they clean the building, wait 30 minutes and another group gets their 45 minutes [of fame?].
> My cousins famly gets her turn about every 3 weeks
> now. That is in a ward in Texas.

Turn? Funny. I'd turn it down (just like the other 3 weeks)

45 minutes of cleaning - not to a '45' - BY THE MEMBERS THEMSELVES might transmit the virus. What's 30 minutes to help? Members CAN'T "clean". Danger

Besides, why not just have a cleaning party where everybody cleans for 15 minutes while singing church songs and getting PREACHED AT (certainly on how to do better) over the P.A. system?

Guess the church leaders got jealous of covid taking over members lives too much as if the church was just an insignificant social media organization with over priced dues and disappointing refreshments.

It is the church of God people! Yes he hasn't spoken during this whole thing or brought any deliverance or given the silent okay for Oaks to hand out $100 bills in sacrament but by golly - he is your God and you better respect!

Please use the sheet by the foyer doors to sign up for post covid tithing settlements. We just want to make sure none of you took from the Lord during this time of vacation.

The current 'vacation' from church, which is mimicking the 1918 'vacation' from church, which itself included the complete cancelation of at least on Conference, has made it clear that there are exceptions to the general rule that weekly attendance is mandatory.

Is there a commandment or revelation that states that unless you attend weekly meetings, you can in no wise gain admittance to Celestial V.I.P. heaven?

And what is the definition of "keeping the Sabbath day holy"? Is attendance of the now two-hour block the pinacle of piety, or holiness? Were three-hour meetings holier; are mormons being cheated now?

What happens if a mormon who is paying a full tithe objects to having to attend two hours of playing dress up? And instead enjoys a the luxury of a day of rest and relaxation?

This reminds me of "Then v. Now" at BYU.

Then (when I was there) I often skipped church to study or pursue other activities. Nothing happened to me. I also gave up attending devotionals because I usually needed the time to prep for a test, work, or do homework.

Now I hear that students get demerits for how many times they do not attend church or devotionals. Too many demerits and they risk their status as a student.

Had this been the case when I was a student I'm sure I would have transferred to another school. My departure from Mormonism might not have taken the decades it took.

In those days free agency was a reality. These days they have corrupted the term and insist it means "freedom to obey" yet disobeying has severe consequences that free agency never had.

I'd love to know the transfer rate today vs. when I was a student.

Thanks, but No Thanks.

My wife ( who is a mormon, not me)is giddy about returning to church. She boasts how the "higher ups" from church have decided that people can go back.
I asked her " why now"? her reply was that they know what they are doing.
,,,,,,Can't argue with ignorance, perhaps the special underwear will save them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2020 01:47PM by stan.

Affixing the silky garment around the head will help prevent Covid. The tighter the garment is tied the less oxygen is available. As the brain is slowly starved of Oxygen, faith increases and confounding doctrines begin to make scene.

Oh well.

My Cousins Bride to be told the family her father has already stipulated in his trust that tithing will be prepaid on all inheritances prior to disbursement. "you want dads snowblower? Bring a receipt showing 10% of resale value has been paid to the church......oh wait, im sorry, 10% of original purchase price.... oh wait, im sorry, 10% of original purchase price + sales tax + inflation....oh piss on it, ill go buy a new snowblower."

Having to pay tithing on money you haven't even received yet? Wow, that's insane.

What's the default if nobody claims it? I suppose it all goes to LDS Inc. right?

not to go. She has to go teach school, but she doesn't want to go back to church. I'm sure my daughter attended this past Sunday.

I think there are a lot of people who can find a good excuse to not go, and I think they will.

My daughter did make the comment in the beginning of this that her greatest fear is of not wanting to go back.

I don't believe it was ever safe to go to the LDS Church.

Ahhhh. Your eyes have been opened my friend.

So going to the Mormon church is like going as an unpaid worker to a real bad call center, vacation is over employees

Back on your heads, lemmings.

Has the Prophet of God, Russel M. Nelson said anything about this?

The Seer and Revelator has been strangely silent. His cowardice will cost lives. He remains non-commital, and safe from blame and liability. The bishops and stake presidents are Rusty's scapegoats.

My TBM daughter was trying to figure out why she is so happy and fulfilled in many ways, even though the world is upside-down and scary. She had been teaching her children online. She and her children have time to play together, and have conversations. No one is making demands for their time and energy. She admitted that it felt good to not be Cub Scout den mother, and not teach Primary anymore. Everyone in her ward had 2-3 callings. She has said "NO" to the endless Mormon summer ice-cream or pizza parties for kids, the Young Women's (whatever they're called now) group outing to the indoor tramploine place, swimming parties, baseball games, Mormons wanting to pick up her children and drive them around in crowded cars. (Over half the people don't wear masks in our Utah area.) Even my daughter's fanatic TBM husband is as happy as the children, to not have to go to church and bishopric meetings all day Sunday, and they all play together all weekend.

When my grandchildren's neighborhood ward opened up again, my daughter and her family decided NOT to attend church. I actually did thank God for their good sense! Their ward serves sacrament with tongs--but what if someone touches the tongs? Mask wearers are not supposed to touch their mask with their hands, and most people I've seen are constantly adjusting the nose-fitting, and not using the proper technique of taking the mask off and on. There's no way this could be safe.

Rusty, the Prophet of God, has no directives on how the sacrament should be served in God's Correllated Global Church.
Every word of the sacrament blessing must be exact--but there has been no official guidance on how to safely administer the Holy sacrament.

The Prophet has abandoned his sheep. He's also left them the responsibility sanitizing all the buildings, on their own. I hope my elderly aunts and uncles aren't coerced into doing this.

I can't believe what I have read on this thread! Cleaning the building has actually become part of the Mormon Sunday service itself! After the closing prayer on Sunday, the members, in family groups, dig in and stir up all the fresh germs and
and effluvium and cheerios that is left by the crowd. Makes no sense, but neither does Mormonism.

What good does it do to cut meetings down 15 or 30 minutes? It takes one second to catch the virus.