the Siege of the locals vs. the travelers lasted about a week until the members of the Baker-Fancher group gave up & surrendered their weapons upon promised being safe...

although most Mormons don't know about it or the lessons of following a despotic, authoritarian leader, we should remember.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2020 11:09AM by GNPE.

I'd say the major lesson is don't surrender your weapons just because somebody else promises to provide for your safety.

firearms were m/l a necessary part of living in the west for hunting, etc. at that time, but not currently.

Firearms in the hands of radicals > Danger for law-abiding school children & others.

The U.S. obsession with firearms isn't serving any useful purpose, just compare to Canada & other countries / societies.

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> firearms [ARE] a necessary part of living in the west [and the east, and the north, and the south] for hunting, [self protection, safety, zen] etc.
>
> [Some people's] obsession with firearms isn't serving any useful purpose...>

Remember, we are talking about MMM.

Not guns! Necessarily.

It's not a gun, it's GIVING UP (your protection, defense, offence, everything!, even possibly your freedom and liberty) that is SURE to lose the fight, and possibly your life.

What happened was an atrocity. It was a trap. This isn't a trap. You must fight to the end, if that's what it takes.

It doesn't matter who's on the other end of the barrel of the gun. Let's don't make this into gun control, what-ifs, or scenarios. You might can but I won't. We are talking about the Matters of Mormon men Murdering men, women and children, and capturing and keeping the latter two, called the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

You realize they were predominantly women and children, right? And that they had already used almost all of their ammunition? You can't pray bullets into existence, so seeking a deal was the only egress available.

I'm not sure why people think Gary Cooper and a final stand would have worked when the guns were empty.

Police: "Drop your weapon or you will be shot!"
Suspect: "Caffiend said never to surrender my weapons in exchange for promises of safety!!"
(2 hours later)
Coroner: "Who the hell is this Caffiend? Some kind of Antifa radical anarchist?"

> Police: "Drop your weapon or you will be shot!"

Since when do the police ask a person to drop his weapon before shooting? That would frankly be a step forward.



Kid with toy gun shot and killed:

https://www.newsweek.com/tamir-rice-police-brutality-toy-gun-720120


Man with cell phone shot and killed:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/black-man-fatally-shot-in-backyard-after-officers-mistake-cell-phone-for-tool-bar-police-say

I recently discovered the song "Weighted Down" by the very strange but clearly wonderful Skip Spence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g60wsvm-4T4

It dates from 1969, but the first two lines struck me immediately as a prescient description of the world today, particularly in the US.

"Weighted down by possessions,*
Weighted down by the gun..."

But then I would say that as I'm basically a hippy ;-)

Tom in Paris



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2020 02:06PM by Soft Machine.

Hippy in Paris. Intriguing.

At heart, Nightingale and, currently long-haired again (which means what we used to call a relaxed afro with the curly hair I have).
But yes, I am a humanist hippy at heart, although I don't express it much outside my home and garden.

Have a great weekend all

I have wonderful memories of Paris.

There were many years there when studies/work took me to lots of different cities, and I was in a bohemian crowd whose members would camp out on each other's couches while traveling. Just being a member of the crowd was enough; you didn't need to know your hosts. So yes, I had wonderful experiences with generous people from Stockholm to Paris to Budapest and Tokyo to Bangkok.

I am too young to qualify as a hippy, and too conservative about substances and work, but there are times when young people create beautiful trusting networks that endure until the psychopaths take over. Think Forest Gump or the partly illusory sense of fraternity in Moulin Rouge.

Paris: Cool since Talleyrand!

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Police: "Drop your weapon or you will be shot!"
>
> Since when do the police ask a person to drop his weapon before shooting? That would frankly be a step forward.
>

A step in the right direction. Too many shootings first, ask questions later.

Tamir Rice

Stephen Clark

Maurice Granton, Jr.

Isaiah Golding

Nicolas Chavez

(Chavez is one of eight people that Houston police have killed so far in 2020.)

...
..
...
..
.
..
...
..
...
..
...
....
...
..
.

Yes

No thanks for the thread HIJACK, caffiend.

Hi Jack?

Because they express liberty and common sense?

If the thread is that easily hijacked it seems like someone is using the wrong weapon for the wrong reason.

MMM is significant for a number of reasons, not the least of which are that 1) it happened and was horrendous, 2) it paints early Mormons and Brigham Young in a very bad light (i.e. it loads people’s shelves, 3) it’s been hidden, which also paints Mormonism in a very bad light.

So, yeah, let’s instantly turn it into a modern day, polarized political rant.

FWIW, each year on 9/11 I post a note on FB pointing out that ‘01 was not the first year that religious zealots murdered a large number of people on 9/11, and include a link to a MMM book. People have tended to ignore it, but this year it’s garnered quite a few likes and other emoji (shock, anger, care, etc). I’m glad to raise awareness about MMM!

Agreed on all points.

The Baker-Fancher fatal error was to surrender their right to defend themselves (weapons). Secondarily they trusted a corrupt and dangerous jurisdiction -- OP GNPE's main point, start of thread. Mistake #3 was to permit the separation of their women and children.

Even allowing for limited information and not knowing the true nature of the the BY theocracy, these were bad decisions. I don't think my analysis, thus far, is explicitly political.

But having been accused of being political, I might as well get political: I find it ironic and disturbing that the mindset that said "You don't need gun ownership--the police will protect you!" are now the ones who who revile, demean, defund, and tactically kneecap the police. Officers (including command--Seattle, Portland, NYC, Rochester) are resigning en masse) reducing patrol, 911 response, and anti-crime units. Predictably, homicides in such jurisdictions have risen.

In response, there are 2 million new gun owners in the US--and that's from states that require Federal background checks. Estimates are that there may be 5 million. Gun & ammo sales are 70% above this point 2019. Premium 9mm's are hard to find. Funny how we hear very little about "gun control" nowadays in the MSM.

To get back on-thread: the MMM tragedy illustrates not only the evil of the BY theocracy, but also the gentile errors that set them up. Circumstances are different in 2020, but the essential principles are still valid.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2020 01:52PM by caffiend.

the Baker-Fancher ppl were SURROUNDED by enemies, no doubt running low on ammo & water, etc. They been surrounded about a week.

You suggesting that they were somehow partly responsible is Blaming The Victims, pure worm shit. U should know better.

They stood no chance. They were surrounded, panicked for days, low on supplies and ammunition, and desperately seeking a way to save their kids. Their guns, with almost no ammunition, were at that point virtually worthless.

Under the circumstances, the deal was a reasonable one. It represented their sole chance of avoiding a shootout--ordered, unknownst to them, by BY--that would have ended at least as badly.

It's delusional to think that opting for a gun battle would have worked out better.

This is where I have to disagree. In important issues one man can turn the whole tide of events. Those in the wrong do turn skiddish, and flee. I'd recommend viewing the great John Ford Movie called 'High Noon' with Gary Cooper. It's a classic.

Uh, High Noon was a movie. It's not real.

Yes, movie.

There's no point what-if-ing this. What happened is what happened. And it's reprehensible. The only "good" way it could have ended was for the Mormons to walk away, and they did not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2020 11:44PM by Gordon B. Stinky.

Let's remember that Macaromney is the guy that wants a statue of John D. Lee erected in St. George.

Caffiend says there are 2 million new gun owners in the US with estimates suggesting 5 million. Since presumably they are all law abiding we have nothing to worry about. Isn't that a comforting thought. Absolutely nothing to worry about.

A Google check tells me that in the first six months of 2020 19 million firearms were sold. It doesn't make me feel any better or safer nor fill me with a desire to make if 19 million and one.

There are between 300 and 400 million guns in the United States, more than there are citizens. Ownership is not limited to just five million people, each with 80 weapons apiece.

The 5 million is apparently new gun owners. I assume that means people who have not previously owned a gun.

I'm not sure what the number of "owners" means. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the States, and that seems to me the key problem.

I'm not rejecting your figures, just pointing out that the problem is far bigger than that and, frankly, most of the problematic weapons are probably unregistered anyway.

kentish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> they are all law abiding we have
> nothing to worry about. Isn't that a comforting
> thought. Absolutely nothing to worry about.


Actually, Kentish, I do worry, even though many of these people are law-abiding, in that their purchases are legal (background check, etc)

The problem is that (probably) the vast majority of them have no training other than the "four Tuesday nights" firearm safety course. They have little idea of personal defense, rules of engagement, what their "castle rights" are, their obligations to retreat/disengage/de-escalate, let alone what a firearm does to human flesh. I'd triple that typical four-night minimal course, adding lessons on legal issues, more live-fire training, and shoot/don't shoot instruction and simulation, plus a bit of medical care for gunshot wounds.

I heard a radio interview with a Nebraska gun dealer who recounted how people are calling him from California asking if he could ship them a hand gun. Such naivete! You voted your gun control laws, folks--now deal with it.

So yes, Kentish, I do worry. (Shocked, LW? Don't be.)

I took the nothing to worry about comment by kentish to be ironic. IOW he may be a tad concerned.

As a police victim services volunteer we had one session on the range, if we wanted it. It was just to round out our training, not at all because we'd ever use it in our unarmed volunteer capacity of course. I was leery but attended as I wanted to participate fully in every experience. The trainer looked at me funny as he handed me the paper silhouette of the man I'd just accurately and fatally shot. I was unexpectedly proud of my high score despite my initial aversion to the exercise and never having touched a gun before. That reaction surprised me.

We don't have floods of guns in Canada that I know of. Plenty of social ills and inequities, unfortunately, but no rampant gun violence.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2020 02:03AM by Nightingale.

Caffiend you appear to be saying that many owners are not responsible enough to own guns. I think you are right.

Nightingale, I am happy to see that some do get irony.

We are back at the blindingly obvious fact that the number of guns in private hands in a society correlates closely with the volume of armed violence and deaths. And when a populace is heavily armed, its police are daily confronted with the threat of attack and inevitably assume an adversarial relationship with the people they are to protect.

Improving the training given to law-abiding civilians (even the word implies martial conditions) when they purchase guns will not change those facts. The degree of cultural blindness required to overlook that reality is astounding and, for a country, conceivably terminal.




PS: Love the new moniker.

kentish: I would like to give you a link but it's political so I can't post it here. If you'd like it ask Admin for my email. They can vouch that I'm not a stalker. I think you'd like it. Full of current events truth but strangely, humourous too. Made me laugh. Ironically. :)

Dammit! I so wanted you as a stalker.

Ha LW. Or maybe, kentish, you can find it. A video montage this past week re a current US political story that includes a Churchill piece. That's what made me think of you.

Nightingale, you would certainly be my choice if I had to have a stalker but to be honest at my age any stalker would do. I'll try to look for the piece you mention.

On a side note, Covid-19 has finally crossed the line. Last Night of the Proms played to an empty Royal Albert hall yesterday but after attempts by some to remove Land of Hope and Glory and Rule Britannia they were included if somewhat subdued. The former played against WW2 Spitfires and such with Churchill speeches as voice over...We will fight on the beaches, etc. It still brought the lump to my throat but for real tears I am comforted by a new song My England that can be found on YT. You can take the Englishman out of England but you cannot take England out of the Englishman.

Kentish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightingale, you would certainly be my choice if I
> had to have a stalker but to be honest at my age
> any stalker would do.

Haha - I could have used different terminology but that's the first word that came to mind at the time.


> On a side note, Covid-19 has finally crossed the
> line. Last Night of the Proms played to an empty
> Royal Albert hall yesterday but after attempts by
> some to remove Land of Hope and Glory and Rule
> Britannia they were included if somewhat subdued.
> The former played against WW2 Spitfires and such
> with Churchill speeches as voice over...We will
> fight on the beaches, etc. It still brought the
> lump to my throat

Crossed many lines, for sure. Sad to think of an empty Albert Hall. Music, the great healer - we could use more of it right now.

Churchill had the perfect voice for the most dramatic and inspiring speeches. And, as we recently mentioned, the Spits are second to none for symbolism and heart.


>but for real tears I am
> comforted by a new song My England that can be
> found on YT.

I found This is MY England - including Anglo-Saxons in the accompanying video.

But I think you may mean My England (John Lunn) - I hadn't heard that one before. Yes, heartwarming - if you're English by birth or heritage, at least, that is.


>You can take the Englishman out of
> England but you cannot take England out of the
> Englishman.

I find this to be true. My paternal grandparents were from Yorkshire, dad raised in Aldershot. Maternal grandad in Scotland, grandmother in Limerick, mom in Aberdeen. My older sister and myself were born near London. Even though my parents came to Canada in their 20s (and I was only 3) they always kept a soft spot near and dear to their homeland. All my blood relatives in the old guard are gone now but every cousin lives in England so I still have reason to return, once travel is possible again. I have a huge soft spot for Scotland though - I guess from the mom/grandad connection and a couple of great holidays there.

My parents always missed "home" and my sibs and I have a strong attachment to the place, even the three born in Canada.

It's a spooky grey and silent day here (hugely overcast with smoke from the WA fires), perfect for reminiscence and melancholy. If I play too many videos or much heartrending music I could find myself easily in the doldrums. Here's hoping for more sunshine and roses in the days to come - for everybody.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2020 04:03PM by Nightingale.

Smokey here, too, Nightingale. A beautifujl chorus that drives the gloom away:

But she lifts up my soul like a bright sunny day
and she stays in my life like a song
There's a place in my heart for this green sacred land
My England.

Another, more sad, song is Full English Brexit by Billy Bragg.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Baker-Fancher fatal error was to surrender their right to defend themselves (weapons).

Secondarily they trusted a corrupt and dangerous [and illegal] jurisdiction...

Mistake #3 was to permit the separation of their women and children.
>
> Even allowing for limited information and not knowing the true nature of the the BY theocracy, these were bad decisions... >

Exactly- 1, 2, & 3. 3 strikes and you're out. Never Give Up.

Who are these crazy folks telling us to GIVE UP? Take our weapons, protection, women and children? Safety? Trust? WHY?

Give up your weapons or we're going to kill you. We're going to kill you anyway (but we're told we are supposed to make it easier on ourselves).

You cannot credibly contend that:

1) the wagon train could possibly have withstood a sustained assault given their lack of ammunition, food and water; or

2) your strategy would have saved more lives than the surrender did.

In the circumstances the wagon train achieved a pretty good outcome: they preserved the children.

Note to self: always "Preview" especially when posting pseudonymously!

:-\

You should be able to go back and edit your post. Or ask Admin to do it for you.

Or it's fine as you've done it. We all make mistakes. :)

It's my wife's birthday today, also.

I didn't grow up in Utah, though I have spent many years here. I never read any Utah history. I presume Utah school kids hear about it. Perhaps I presume too much.

I didn't know about MMM until I was in my fifties. Mormons apparently don't like to bring the subject up.

I find it ironic that Mormons were responsible for the largest non-military one day massacre in US history*, until Oklahoma City bombing, and are still number 3, after the WTC and OK City. Doubly ironic that the worst part of it was on 9/11.

* yes, lots of qualifiers. There were larger multi-day massacres (Tulsa riots of 1921 for example, and there were others), and larger military massacres. But by just about any measure of worst US massacres, MMM would make the short list.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
----------------------------------------------------
>
> I find it ironic that Mormons were responsible for
> the largest non-military one day massacre in US
> history*,...
>
> * yes, lots of qualifiers. There were larger
> multi-day massacres...

Perhaps we should list these by category of offenders:

A) civilian-upon-civilian, for example the Pulse nightclub shooting, also the World Trade Center attack. One might argue that WTC attack was "B," below. Some KKK lynchings would fit this.
B) citizen militia with recognized commanders. MMM would fit in here, plus the Mormon Wars, and numerous Euro/tribal engagements.(I'd exclude bona fide battles such as Little Big Horn). Other, larger, KKK actions might apply here, along with large-scale union riots.
C) Official military upon civilians. Many Euro/tribal engagements would fall in this group such as the Deerfield Massacre, The Bear River Massacre, and some Civil War atrocities.

This one, by Milton R. Hunter (how's that for an "LDS Royalty" surname for you?) was the standard textbook in Utah History classes--taught in 7th grade--for nearly a generation.

It makes no mention of the event. These days the subject is broached, but teachers know enough to tread lightly. I didn't hear about it until I was in college when I read a column by the late Harold Schindler--who later became a good friend--in the Salt Lake Tribune. Schindler characterized the Fancher-Baker party as "people in the wrong place at the wrong time," These days that strikes me as pretty simplistic.

Mormons want to claim Brigham Young wasn't involved, but that's nonsense. They insist the messenger from Salt Lake arrived too late, and that Dame and others acted without authorization. However, the easy rebuttal to that one is pointing out they didn't wait for word from BY before they acted.

Will Bagley's "Blood of the Prophets" and "Innocent Blood: Essential: Essential Narratives of the Mountain Meadows Massacre" are two excellent accounts of the horror.

Those who Google "Innocent Blood" will also see this "review" from a BYU Mormonite (I propose we use that term for Internet Mormons, in the vein of the Danites, Levites, Mulekites, etc).

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2400&context=facpub

I ruined another bullchip filter on this passage:

>>In their desire to tell a compelling story, the editors often make bold statements and interpretations with no source documents to back them.

Sorry, that's pure curelom dung...

> In their desire to tell a
> compelling story, the editors
> often make bold statements and
> interpretations with no source
> documents to back them.

You're only allowed 'bold statements and interpretations with no source documents to back them' if you're a prophet who is revealing new scriptures and/or claiming to have had tea with Jesus and his "well pleased" dad.

I dread it for a couple of weeks. I am glad it is over for another year.

"Blood of the Prophets" is excellent account of MMM. After reading it, I decided to resign from TSCC.

In 2018,shortly after reading this book, my husband and I decided to go on a road trip in southern Utah and see the site and monument of MMM on the way back to Salt Lake City.

We were the only ones there that sunny morning. You could hear a few birds chirping in the distance, but other than that, it was totally silent.

I don't know how to describe the feeling there; a profound sadness would be accurate.

There was a slight breeze and it gently blew the United States Flag, and the flag of Arkansas beneath it.

The names of all of the victims were inscribed on individual polished markers flush with the ground. A wrought iron fence surrounds the monument and their names. There are several markers with descriptions of what happened.

As we left, we were resolved to resign. A month later, most of my immediate family resigned with us.

Excellent book.

thanks for all your comments.

It appears to me that the same Cover-Up mentality that we saw in the MMM tragedy are alive & well in ChurchCo today.

IF they want to 'clean the swamp', turn the SS LDS around (don't believe for a moment) this is what they'd have to include.

Thank you for the timely reminder of this unforgiveably horrific event.

Wonder how they justified this slaughter to themselves and their Mormon God.

Recall there being an uninspiring pile of rocks which passes as a memorial at the site, along with a placard where LDS take credit for the memorial, placed in remembrance of those who died, because of a mysterious massacre, which is unexplained. Don't know if it's still there.

Lonely place.

It sounds like a lonely place. It's LDS, it has to be lonely.

It’s an object lesson in what happens when you trust Mormons. You can trust them to keep their word today just as much as you could trust them back then. Because their word doesn’t mean sh*t when lying for the Lord is second nature.