Given that we are talking about Ammon Bundy and other patriots seeking to wrest power from an evil government, it's worth noting what just happened in Michigan.

Two militias, at least a dozen patriots, a plot to kidnap and perhaps kill a democratically elected governor, weapons purchases, and additional plans to overthrow parts of the state government: you can't get much more treasonous than that. It's time to wake up and smell the domestic-terror coffee. You can have a stable democratic society with constitutionally protected rights or a tyranny of the militarily-equipped but morally-disarmed.

But you can't have both.

And you know that they surely were 100% convinced that they were carrying out the work of God.

There are so many points of similarity with Mormonism. Rebellion against government, the desire to escape federal control, support for states rights stemming from the period when that was the rallying cry for both slavers and polygamists, the vigilante impulse to take matters into one's own hands: Can anyone say Deseret?

Ammon Bundy is very much the Mormon as too, unwittingly, are the MI terrorists. Brigham would unleash these guys on a wagon train with no hesitation at all.

that fake militia ~



don't beleaf in the Bible ~



no way they will win ~

Sedition ?

Now didn't Barr just say the full weight of the law should be used against sedition? And isn't this exactly what sedition is?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/08/republican-us-senator-mike-lee-democracy

“Democracy isn’t the objective; liberty, peace, and prosperity are. We want the human condition to flourish. Rank democracy can thwart that.”

These people want fascism. They want authoritarianism. They want dictatorship.

What's behind this? Racism and religion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2020 07:45PM by anybody.

Some phrases that never cross their lips: Bill of Rights, separation of powers, checks and balances, constitutional republic.

You are right. These people have no commitment to democratic government. They want the simplicity, the efficiency, of Mussolini's trains on time. It would be tempting to call them advocates of Toqueville's tyranny of the majority but they want to achieve it from a minority position. "Hey, we've got 48% of the vote so let's change the electoral system and the judiciary to ensure that our preferences are rendered permanent."

And they are certain, credulously certain, that they will never end up on the wrong side of the state.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2020 07:54PM by Lot's Wife.

You nailed, LW.

The only thing I would add are the racism and "christian" dominionism behind their autocratic aspirations.

I've never understood this desire to set up some kind of religious state like the Republic Of Gilead. That's "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" c&*p.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2020 07:59PM by anybody.

It seems they do care about part of the Bill of Rights. To these people, it seems that the Second Amendment is the only part of the Constitution that has any validity. And it applies only to them. It doesn't apply if you are black, for instance.

Yes, I thought about that anomaly. They do care about the Second Amendment for themselves if no one else. But you'll never hear them extol the virtues of habeas corpus, the limits on search and seizure, or a defendant's rights in a courtroom.

There are only one or 1.5 constitutional rights they embrace: the rest are the product of hysterical snowflake liberals like Franklin, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, and Hamilton. Flamin' pinkos the bunch of them.

Not just racism and religion in there but some misogyny as well.

I condemn both groups. One for rioting, arson, and civil violence boarding on rebellion, and the other for sedition. And I condemn this group, even as I hesitate to identify them politically.

It's the false equivalency fallacy again

There were good people on both sides.

One group is responsible for injuries and death, plus billions of damage in dozens of cities. The other is a small bunch of inept kooks. They're significant in that that they "prove" there is a dangerous alt-right network ready to take on the US government. Very handy!

Right wing, maybe, except for their anti-Trump postings and that anarchist flag...

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One group is responsible for injuries and death,
> plus billions of damage in dozens of cities. The
> other is a small bunch of inept kooks.

You are implicitly comparing the worst of tens of thousands of BLM protesters on the one hand with a group of about 12 terrorists. That is unreasonable. The question is whether left or right is more destructive, and by that standard the right has killed a lot more people than the left.


----------------
> They're
> significant in that that they "prove" there is a
> dangerous alt-right network ready to take on the
> US government. Very handy!

You mean like you cherry pick the worst of the left and use them to discredit the entire liberal/progressive side of the spectrum? Handy like that?


---------------
> Right wing, maybe, except for their anti-Trump
> postings and that anarchist flag...

Trump is not a conservative. Neither was Mussolini, who rose on the left and moved to the right; nor Hitler, who had no interest at all in conserving the institutions of the state. In each case the leader took over a conservative party and used it to achieve ends that were not conservative in any traditional sense.

You are asking for ideological purity when nothing like that obtains in populist movements. Like Eric K. said when he referred to Hoffer's The True Believer, extreme populists can and will go either way.

Gee, I wonder what dog whistle source got them thinking about that?

These people are terrorists, IMO. Or maybe incels looking for a cause. I can't decide.

Headline : "Second Night of Trump Supporters Riots Against Masks in Brooklyn"

Headline : "Thirteen people were charged Thursday in an alleged domestic terrorism plot to kidnap Michigan Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, federal and state officials announced"

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Headline : "Thirteen people were charged Thursday
> in an alleged domestic terrorism plot to kidnap
> Michigan Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, federal
> and state officials announced"

Whitmer? Why does that name sound familiar? Any relation to the Book of Mormon.

"The seven men were said to be affiliated with an extremist group known as the Wolverine Watchmen, and the state’s attorney general accused them of collecting addresses of police officers in order to target them, threatening to start a civil war 'leading to societal collapse' and planning to kidnap the governor and other government officials.'"


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/08/us/gretchen-whitmer-michigan-militia.html?action=click&algo=top_conversion&block=trending_recirc&fellback=false&imp_id=215645980&impression_id=759e56c2-09d4-11eb-bcf4-2562d8f50082&index=2&pgtype=Article&region=footer&req_id=90192012&surface=most-popular



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2020 10:22PM by Beth.

It's not an unusual sentiment on the right. These guys and Ammon Bundy are both hostile to the established authorities and want gangs of vigilantes determining local and national policy. More generally, remember how Hitler used the Brown Shirts against the government he wanted to overthrow; also Mussolini's use for many years of anarchist gangs in the Milan area.

The freedom fighters in US history are really closer to syndicalists or early Russian Marxists, both of whom wanted small local committees to make the rules. It's an old tale, this destruction of conservatism in the name of conservatism; and it usually ends in the little soviets being swallowed up by Big Brother.

It's good to remember history at times like this. There is nothing new under the sun.

From the same article:

“I just wanna make the world glow, dude,” the affidavit quoted him as saying in a profanity-laced tirade. “We’re gonna topple it all, dude.”

Whattaya mean we don't have the votes necessary to effect the needed changes! Well, shoot!!

> Whattaya mean we don't have the votes necessary to
> effect the needed changes! We'll shoot!!

You're welcome.

You do aim to please...

Down the chute with you, Jesus!

Gee, If Only God had a prophet on earth to tell us what dangers we're facing & how to deal with them... For the sake of the Whole Earth!!

O Well.

Actually, they tried last week, with an additional followup letter on Tuesday. They spoke against racism, political extremism, rejection of election outcomes, and said God does not have a fave political party. I think they pretty clearly had the Ammon Bundys of Mormonism in mind.

It sounded like far more relevant advice than yet another lecture on the importance of fast offerings.

What about porn? Are you suggesting that calls for political moderation are more important than porn?

It appears porn is being soft-pedaled for the duration of the pandemic. Soares made an oblique reference to it, but I don't recall any full-frontal attacks on porn, so to speak.

I think the church leadership overall did a much better job of conference this time around. Maybe they should all be cooped up on the regular. It seems to help them to think more clearly.

'Follow-up letter'? How many MORMONS know / heard about this (sent to BPs for reading in SM?)?

Yeah, it's a safe bet as long as no one's offended, that's the MORMON WAY...

See https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2338535

Link to article about follow-up letter after GC, re the coming US election

A number of the seditionists are part of the boogaloo movement and are pro-T, whose April "Liberate Michigan" tweet gave them a big boost.

"Several of the six men charged in federal court Thursday with a conspiracy to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer have histories of anti-government organizing, as well as interest in countering what they saw as an 'uprising' against President Donald Trump, according to their online profiles and comments.

"In addition, several of the seven men facing separate state terrorism charges for their activity with a group called the Wolverine Watchmen also posted pro-Trump and anti-government content."

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/whitmer-conspiracy-allegations-tied-boogaloo-movement-n1242670

Demagogue, meet your storm troopers.

"Everybody elects a dictator." - Number Six in "The Prisoner"

If this isn't scary for our country & dominoes to other states, countries, and people Everywhere, I don't know what might not be.


At the same time, Rump decries anarchism ... I guess he doesn't know what Irony means

Other countries? Do other democratic countries have armed militias like these within their borders? There are many things countries copy from the US but I suspect this won't be one of them.

Nagorno-Karabakh, right now.

other dictators use by virtue of 'loyalty' strong military leaders who acquese to their 'Dear Leader'... which Rump wants to do thru Barr & Pompeo instead of the real military....

If Rump ordered the U.S. Military to arrest Biden, Obama, Harris, et. al. (he could do this, but I hope he won't), there would be an insurrection never before seen at least in the U.S.

Headline : "Michigan sheriff says accused terrorists were within their rights to 'arrest' Gov. Whitmer"

ROFL. In that case, he ought to put on his big sheriff pants and go make the arrest himself — unless, that is, he doesn't have the stones. (I presume he thinks he's got the same rights they do.)

This is the result when country bumpkins get together and elect a white trash sheriff.

I'm trying to figure out if these types of people have always been there, and I just haven't been aware of them. It is a troubling trend.

They've always been there. At least the core has been. They once were Mormons or other frontier fanatics, then went underground for over a century appearing sporadically to do their damage. Timothy McVeigh, for instance, was recruited by a Michigan militia related to those of today.

What changed was two things. First, the political elite gradually abandoned white rural workers to economic stagnation and then, in 2007-2009, disaster. Second, as happens so often in history a demagogue arose who understandably took advantage of that discontent but inexcusably turned those people into a political weapon. "Stand back and stand by."

When a national leader or leaders encourage the fringe, one effect is to bring more previously marginal people into their groups and activities. So a latent problem in the US political structure became a lot bigger and more acute. Without that encouragement and solicitude, the militia and vigilante threats would still exist but at a fraction of their current virulence.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2020 05:52PM by Lot's Wife.

I recently spent time with friends who are avid Trump supporters and while for the sake of friendship I steered away from politics, I could not help overhearing their own conversations on the upcoming election which they framed as being about the destruction of the Republic if Trump does not win. If my otherwise ordinary friends have bought into this paranoia what hope is there for the many who think like these militia groups?

Trump has created a false narrative that the electoral system is under attack by those who want to see him gone, that if he loses it will be because of massive cheating on the part of his opponents. "Stand back. Stand by." takes on an ominous tone in light of his divisive rhetoric. Cary times.

Very scary times indeed.

Washington Post article: "Accused leader of plot to kidnap Michigan governor was struggling financially, living in basement storage space"

It that title doesn't say it all. He'll likely have lots of time to discuss things in his new dungeon quarters.

I hope he likes his new digs. Perfect place to discuss wild plots, make new friends, meet interesting people.

I thought that was the whole point ... become ungovernable? no justice, no peace? burn it down? silence is violence? speaking truth to power? etc.

Perhaps in the current emergency, all those who wish to see the destruction and overthrow of the existing corrupt, illegitimate regime would do well not to harshly judge the guerilla actions of another side, but rather wait and sort it out later when we're redrawing borders.

Perhaps you can point us to people on the left who are march into legislative chambers armed to the teeth to intimidate legislators and have accumulated weaponry and planned to kidnap/kill governors or government officials. Alternatively, you could name a handful of leftists who have infiltrated police forces and are friends and supporters of armed forces planning on kidnapping or killing government officials and overthrowing various local governments.

Do you have a list of such people? Because vague allusions to Antifa, a movement without leaders; and BLM, an inchoate movement comprising primarily middle-class white people, won't do the trick.

Specifics. Be specific.

"Patriot Militias" = Domestic Terrorists, the biggest threat to American democracy.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-10-10/white-supremacists-proud-boys-republicans-attacks-democracy?fbclid=IwAR3_bcUOl1dvnzhY-4PDg5GMvKpIi3XtSS8JThdE820TEtysaWt_qSfeJVI



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2020 12:28PM by schrodingerscat.

They are NOT patriots.

Correct.

They are actually closer to anarcho-syndicalists with their notion that sheriffs and local authorities should usurp power from the states and the federal government. But no black flags for them. They aren't intelligent enough to know what they are saying.

A couple of them are Marine veterans. They took an oath to protect and defend the constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic. Apparently, people in TedNugentLand have a different way of thinking. If this is the most the FBI can dredge up, America is the safest country on the planet.

It's difficult to know what to make of this, bradley. Perhaps you should get out more--you know, see what happens to societies that tolerate assassinations and attempted coups.

It's all fun and games till somebody gets hurt.

Nobody was kidnapped. Nobody was assassinated. As far as I’m concerned, this was a fantasy group similar to D&D players. It’s not like they were serious about any of this.

Thankfully there are 4 years of brotherhood between each General Election in God's favorite nation.