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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 03:20AM

That was a the headline of a recent letter in the SLTrib from Gregory Prince, an occasional contributor there, and I believe part of the Sunstone crowd.

Here is the link to the full letter. Quotes of the principal parts follow

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2020/12/26/gregory-prince-have-we/

The gray-haired faithful, of which I am one, are likely to return to communal worship, if for no other reason than decades of deeply ingrained habit suffused with duty. But the young are bound neither by habit nor duty. Even in the pre-pandemic world, they were leaving institutional religion in droves, regardless of the tradition of their parents — hence, the dramatic rise of the “nones,” younger people who are spiritually inclined but unchurched.

The silver lining of the pandemic is that it obliges us to rethink everything in our lives, including religion. Those who emerge from the rethinking and merely return to religion as usual will waste a good crisis, for in too many cases that will mean a return to “Christ-centered boredom.” Simply put, if kids are bored, they are gone.

What religion has historically offered fills libraries; what it offers in a post-pandemic world might be summarized in three simple phrases: truth claims, moral authority, and community. For the younger demographics, set aside truth claims — the backbone of religious conviction for so many of the older demographics. Even talking about them to youths is counterproductive. That leaves moral authority and community.

For most of its history, Mormonism has looked and acted inwardly, taking care of its own while largely avoiding engagement with the outward world and other faith traditions. Moral authority, to the young, means engaging the world and its problems on their own terms, taking institutional risks and minimizing or even ignoring proselytizing as a metric of success.
-------------------------

He goes on to talk about the many crises facing the planet, and how religions need to be both more involved, and more integrated with other churches, to present a united front.

I am interested in a few of the points he made above."The youth are bound by neither habit nor duty" - That may be less the case for Mormon youth than youth in general, but I get the sense that it is pretty on the mark.

"Christ-centered boredom" - I laughed at that. I think everyone recognizes that LDS meetings are boring. You've heard most everything new you are ever going to hear by about age 8, and after that it is just repetition. That's why nobody cried over the loss of the third hour in the three-hour block.

Lastly, he points out that he thinks truth claims by religions are not only not important to today's youth, but that they are actually counterproductive.

That's kind of breathtaking. I'm not sure I believe it. Truth claims are a huge part of Mormonism. If the youth really don't care about that, I think Mormonism is in very deep trouble. Truth claims were practically all that the missionary lessons taught, besides pressuring "investigators" to commit to baptism.

I'd be interested in your thoughts about truth claims now being largely irrelevant, or worse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2020 03:21AM by Brother Of Jerry.

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Posted by: Sharapata ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 03:34AM

And, let's face it, the LDS "community" has never really been anything to boast about. What TSCC desperately wants to be perceived as is a caring, concerning and unconditional community, when the reality is most wards are chock full of self-righteous, judgmental, hypocritical nutjobs. Yes, individual mileage may vary by location, but I have found this to be true more often than not, being 47 years old and having lived in many locales. Yet another reason for young people to bolt. Acting the TBM part to fit in is exhausting and not worth the effort.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: January 06, 2021 12:03PM

I have you by 38 years and I agree with you completely. That is something I rarely do.

Sharapata Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And, let's face it, the LDS "community" has never
> really been anything to boast about. What TSCC
> desperately wants to be perceived as is a caring,
> concerning and unconditional community, when the
> reality is most wards are chock full of
> self-righteous, judgmental, hypocritical nutjobs.
> Yes, individual mileage may vary by location, but
> I have found this to be true more often than not,
> being 47 years old and having lived in many
> locales. Yet another reason for young people to
> bolt. Acting the TBM part to fit in is exhausting
> and not worth the effort.

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Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 10:43AM

Go ahead and give Scientology, The LDS church, and either Jehovah's Witnesses and/or Mary Baker Eddy's (Christian Science) organization the one big giganic tip all four maybe don't deserve.

These idiots are only one (1!) Turnaround Artist away from being a healthy community place of grounded spiritual growth, and they can't do it!

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 11:14AM

It surprises me that the Mormon church cut back so harshly on the funds for social events and activities. To me, the fun activities and community building events were a strength of the church, and a perfectly normal, acceptable function of any church. Plus, the church started to insist that everything must have a gospel purpose, thus cutting back on activities that (for instance,) the women of the Relief Society found so enjoyable.

Was it Monson who turned the church into such a joyless institution? I really feel that was a tactical error. Rusty would do well to correct that.

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Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 01:05PM


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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 01:17PM

Agreed. That far predates Monson. Personally, I'd place it toward the end of the David O McKay administration in the 1960s.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 07:50PM

McKay killed the best of the church. Over time he forgot the members and conceded power to the enemies of the relative tolerance he embodied. It was McKay who allowed McConkie to republish Mormon Doctrine, which redefined the religion; who brought Packer into the 12; and who blessed the Correlation movement. McKay laid the foundation for what happened in the 1970s and 1980s.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 08:49PM

It was actually J. Fielding Smith who put BKP in the Qo12. It was McKay's death that created the opening that Packer filled.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 08:51PM

Thank you.

ETA: Did McKay bring McConkie into the 12?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2020 08:51PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 09:06PM

No. That was Lee. Interestingly, McConkie took J. Fielding's place in the Qo12. But there is no nepotism in TSCC.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 09:35PM

Hah!

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 09:50PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_R._McConkie

In October 1972, McConkie was invited to Lee's office "where President Lee put his arms around him by way of greeting and said, 'The Lord and the Brethren have just called you to fill the vacancy in the Council of the Twelve.' Bruce responded, 'I know. This is no surprise to me. I have known it for some time.'"

What an arrogant a**.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 10:05PM

Fascinating.

So McKay called him as a Seventy and it was from that position that he wrote Mormon Doctrine. He was still a Seventy when McKay allowed the publication of the second edition, in which Spencer of The Miracle of Forgiveness was also involved. Then his father-in-law made him an apostle. . .

No wonder he knew the call was coming.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: January 06, 2021 01:45PM

I don't think ChurchCo had 'veto power' over McDonkey publishing M.Doctrine in the first or later editions; this was a time when the GAs were writing (ghost writing?) books like pancakes are at the fire-fighter's annual breakfast.

Wasn't a company called 'Bookcraft' (a private company) the publisher? We'll probably never determine how much editing was done prior to publication.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 06, 2021 03:15PM

McKay ordered McConkie not to republish the book after the first edition. Eight years later McKay agreed to let the second, revised edition go to press.

McConkie was a Seventy. He did as he was told.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 07:44PM

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It surprises me that the Mormon church cut back so
> harshly on the funds for social events and
> activities. To me, the fun activities and
> community building events were a strength of the
> church, and a perfectly normal, acceptable
> function of any church. Plus, the church started
> to insist that everything must have a gospel
> purpose, thus cutting back on activities that (for
> instance,) the women of the Relief Society found
> so enjoyable.
>
> Was it Monson who turned the church into such a
> joyless institution? I really feel that was a
> tactical error. Rusty would do well to correct
> that.

The big problem is that Rusty wasn't your typical Mormon boy growing up. He was "inactive", he didn't participate in Primary, Scouting or advancing through the offices of the Aaronic Priesthood. From reading the church-approved bios, he came across as a socially inept teenager who did not get along with his peers~ he really wanted to play 1st string HS football, but the coach had other ideas [Ooh, the lord wanted him to become a surgeon so it was a blessing that he didn't play!!!] So Rusty has no sentimental feelings about his youth years in the church. It partially explains why he had no qualms about dumping Scouting.

And I very much agree with your ideas that the church should have social elements. The church has woefully conditioned its members to expect nothing from the church.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: January 06, 2021 12:06PM

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It surprises me that the Mormon church cut back so
> harshly on the funds for social events and
> activities. To me, the fun activities and
> community building events were a strength of the
> church, and a perfectly normal, acceptable
> function of any church. Plus, the church started
> to insist that everything must have a gospel
> purpose, thus cutting back on activities that (for
> instance,) the women of the Relief Society found
> so enjoyable.
>
> Was it Monson who turned the church into such a
> joyless institution? I really feel that was a
> tactical error. Rusty would do well to correct
> that.

If it costs money they are NOT I REPEAT NOT interested

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 11:25AM

The genius part of Joseph Smith would be appalled at how insipid his great creation has become. His legend trodden asunder little by little, bit by bit, until its final demise in the hands of Rusty the "Prophet."


Joseph could take anything and turn it into a gospel principle and a faith promoting experience. Getting caught philandering and turning it into Celestial Polygamy? If that isn't making a silk purse out of a sow's ear, then, I don't know what it. You gotta hand it to him.

But Mormonism? Is there anything less imaginative, less cutting edge? Always following, never leading, this Elohim. Knows the way to the bank though.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 11:41AM

This crisis was the best opportunity for the church to deliver on all the hocus pocus they have preached. But no. They didn't do anything that people would possibly associate with divine guidance. They were swimming naked all along. They couldn't even be bothered to shell out some of their millions of dollars to assist people to have financial aid during the crisis.

I think many people can find "community" on the Internet more suitable than having to swallow a bunch of bunk to be with others in a room. For introverts especially, it's sometimes a relief not to have to go pretend to be enjoying all that regimented fellowshipping.

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Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 11:51AM

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This crisis was the best opportunity for the
> church to deliver on all the hocus pocus they have
> preached. But no. They didn't do anything that
> people would possibly associate with divine
> guidance. They were swimming naked all along. They
> couldn't even be bothered to shell out some of
> their millions of dollars to assist people to have
> financial aid during the crisis.
>
> I think many people can find "community" on the
> Internet more suitable than having to swallow a
> bunch of bunk to be with others in a room. For
> introverts especially, it's sometimes a relief not
> to have to go pretend to be enjoying all that
> regimented fellowshipping.

Yeah, but the real estate alone, ready to be scooped up if Scientology fails, if Jehovah's Witnesses fold or teeney
Christian Science needs to be bailed, $100bil will bankroll the deal.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 01:00PM

“They didn't do anything that people would possibly associate with divine guidance. They were swimming naked all along.”

Swimming? Or floating dead in the pool?

I knew their faith was dead when TSM rode around in the bulletproof Audi. It’s no wonder his mind went. He didn’t need it anyway. But it wasn’t just him. His lackeys under him enabled such a ridiculous display of faithlessness.

Mormonism needs to die. It will, because truth claims are its foundation. What you’re seeing now is the result of that foundation eroding. You can’t fix the erosion. You could build a new foundation and move the house, but look at the crew. There’s no way that will happen.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 01:49PM

I remember a very strong sense of community when I was growing up in the 50s and 60s. I admit that I am very much an outsider now, but I don't get the same sense of community from my relatives that are still enmeshed. It seems more like a sense of obligation.

I am particularly puzzled about all the temples. They clearly think putting temples everywhere is going to cure some problem for them. I can't imagine it will bring people into the church, so it must be to retain existing membership. I am really mystified about how that will work, especially with the young. I see a major train wreck forming. Temples have to be hideously expensive to build and maintain.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 02:12PM

I think temples have 4 purposes that I can think of off the bat:

They keep a stream of busy work to consume the time of the members

They provide some kind of link to ancestors. Many religions have some type of ancestor worship since most people don't like the idea of mortality and being forgotten.

Temples are the fee-only entrance offering for the more invested higher initiates in the group. Successful groups have perks for the more elite to feel more important. Good cults have to reveal "secrets" to the ones who reach higher levels.

The temples are place savers for prime real estate investment. Investments and wealth are the real back up plan for perpetuation of the religion, even more than encouraging a high birthrate.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 02:51PM

I keep hearing that they are real estate investments, and I keep not believing that. An investment is only worth something when you sell it. and if a temple and its lot were ever sold, the building and parking lot would be a very expensive tear-down, which would come out of any potential profit from the sale of the land.

I see temples as current working assets. They bring in money through tithing from people wanting/needing a TR. To my knowledge, none of the modern temple lots have ever been sold, but if/when one is, the decommissioning costs would be enormous, especially on the larger temples. For the McTemples, not so bad.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 06:37PM

"Decommissioning," like an antiquated and thoroughly irradiated nuclear power plant.

You are on a roll today, BoJ.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 06:33PM

“It seems more like a sense of obligation.”

The honeymoon is over.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 12:13PM

A certified letter from ChurchCo....

inside is (any guesses?)

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 01:27PM

Do you have an ex-spouse that wants to be sealed to someone? If so, that's what it's probably about. They want to know if you have any input.

Note that asking for "input" is not the same as asking for your permission. Unless you have really serious charges against your ex, nothing you say one way or the other will change their decision to approve the sealing. This is largely a formality. The only charge I know of that can derail the sealing is owing back child support.

I think this is largely self-interest on the part of LDS Inc. If a parent (typically female) is not receiving child support, that means she is at risk of turning to the LDS Church for support. They have a vested interest in pressuring the ex for child support. If the ex-husband is asking permission to get sealed, LDS Inc now has some leverage to lean on him if he owes child support.

So, unless your ex owes you child support (highly unlikely I imagine), it matters not how or whether you respond.

If you don't have an ex that might want to get sealed, then I have no idea why they would write you. Are you excommunicable? Have you taken the Sacrament with your left hand or something like that? ;)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2020 01:39PM by Brother Of Jerry.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 05:22PM

Joey was amazed at how gullible his followers were;

see how some things don't change with ChurchCo?

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Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 05:32PM

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joey was amazed at how gullible his followers
> were; see how some things don't change with ChurchCo?

You've got that one down pat and proper, it's like a movie where the guy is maybe a cheater and a thief and he has his girl's eyes locked into his. Everyone around is snapping their fingers and clapping hands together while all the time yelling about who he is and she is almost on a spectrum where nobody gets through. No one but him.

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Posted by: southbound ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 06:14PM

The church aleays has been, is the same today and will be the same in the future. It is a pay for privilege church.

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Posted by: subeamnotlogedin ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 10:52AM

Here is an article from April 2020
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/project-protect-seeking-help-to-make-5-million-face-masks-for-healthcare-workers-in-utah?lang=eng

The billion dollar rainy day fund church has encouraged it's members to make face masks and to donate them during the pandemic.

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Posted by: subneamnotlogedin ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 10:55AM

Here is another link.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/global/2020-05-20/beehive-clothing-masks-gowns-medical-covid-relief-184696

Beehive Clothing facilities worldwide will produce 200,000 gowns, 1.5 million masks in COVID-19 relief project

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Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 11:25AM

subneamnotlogedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here is another link.
>
> https://www.thechurchnews.com/global/2020-05-20/be
> ehive-clothing-masks-gowns-medical-covid-relief-18
> 4696
>
> Beehive Clothing facilities worldwide will produce
> 200,000 gowns, 1.5 million masks in COVID-19
> relief project

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/latter-day-saints-global-covid-19-relief-efforts

By the time either one of those two projects maybe get up and running the LDS Temples may reopen with Chief Surgeon & Prophet Nelson declaring (battery pen in hand) a sudden new revelation.

Mormon Temple Garments have received approval for dramatically needed alterations!
heeh heeh heeh...

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Posted by: subeamnotlogedin ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 11:22AM

Now I am dreaming again of what a billion dollar church could do to help it's members during a pandemic. Yes this will be phantasy world. Here we go. When schools closed due to covid they could have offered free online schooling.

https://ensignpeakacademy.com/tuition/

Ensign Peak Academy

An online private K-12 school serving members and friends of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Giving free laptops and internet. The lds church could hire tutors for students that are struggling learning at home due to school closure.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 11:37AM

Totally AGREE!

the Youth of the church is the FUTURE of the church, Especially if they (still) want to take over the world (HA!).

It would be a challenge to provide internet & deny it to others ('Unwashed Masses'), but that's what they already do (denial of certain things to certain people)...

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Posted by: Sharapata ( )
Date: January 03, 2021 03:31AM

To be fair, Ensign Peak Academy is a private school that basically masquerades itself as a Church owned and operated school, but it is neither Church owned nor operated. So it's highly unlikely that this school has any access to the Church's slush funds.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 03, 2021 03:37AM

Isn't Ensign Peak Academy a polygamist institution?

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Posted by: Sharapata ( )
Date: January 03, 2021 03:20PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isn't Ensign Peak Academy a polygamist
> institution?

Not that I am aware of, but Utah has many schools of this type. Parents, teachers and investors, wary of the big, bad public school system in Utah, have started private schools where LDS teachings and values can be incessantly inflicted on its students, as if just growing up in Utah County didn't already serve that purpose. But the Church itself has shown no interest in sponsoring or otherwise supporting these K-12 schools, which must make for some interesting dynamics, no doubt, with these places pretending to be LDS schools, though not technically being LDS schools.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 06, 2021 03:07PM

"What religion has historically offered fills libraries; what it offers in a post-pandemic world might be summarized in three simple phrases: truth claims, moral authority, and community."

It usually fails in a post-pandemic world on all three counts.

Fake truth claims.

Fake moral authority.

Fake community for non-conformists to the truth claims and authority.

What might be Brother Prince looking for?

"Lastly, the pandemic gives us a chance to rethink religious community. We have an opportunity to extend community outward, to engage with other faith traditions on a level heretofore unimaginable. The sum will be more than its component parts, and only then will we have the collective strength to reestablish moral authority, reengage the young whose energy and genius are so desperately needed, and vanquish the many forms of evil that threaten our very existence."

I don't think he understands religious moral authority. He should read more about his founding prophet's ways as well as the second one.

Mormonism doesn't need geniuses but more pliant followers. As for the evils threatening us, Mormonism is first and foremost a corporation. It's view of evils aren't everyman's evils. Porn will trump pandemic. Alcohol will trump affluenza. And temple work will trump temporary unemployment. The church will continue to pay lip service instead of real service.

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