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Posted by: behindcurtain ( )
Date: January 03, 2021 10:35PM

When you have a state church, everybody is required by law to attend. Everybody has to pay dues, whether it be tithing or some other form of payment.

People are more understanding of others in a state church. The know everybody is being forced to attend, so there is a feeling of "we're all in this together."

In Mormonism, if you don't believe, it's really hard to pay tithing just so you can enjoy the social aspects. But in a state church, if you don't believe it is still not hard to pay tithing because you don't have any other option. It is like paying taxes. We don't like it, but we have no other choice, so we don't agonize over the morality of paying it. If everybody is forced to pay tithing, nobody is saving money by not paying tithing, so you can't be envious of your neighbor for not paying tithing.

I like high school because everybody is forced to attend. You may like not like being forced to go to school, but you do get a unique social experience. If everybody is forced to attend a state church, you get a unique social experience. You get to socialize with a wide variety of people over a long period of time.

When you pay tithing to a state church, there is a good chance that some of that money will go to the state, helping the state to build infrastructure, educate children, build a strong military, etc.

In ancient Rome, people were required to worship the pagan gods. It didn't matter if the people believed. The thing that mattered was going through the rituals. Imagine if a profession of belief were not required for a Mormon. You could be outspoken about your doubts, and nobody would ostracize you as long as you went through the motions in the temple, the chapel, etc.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 12:36AM

Very bad idea.

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 01:03AM

Which countries have state churches that require attendance?

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Posted by: behindcurtain ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 01:23AM

I don't know. Maybe some Muslim countries do. Maybe some European countries in the middle ages had state churches that required attendance.

The Massachusetts Bay colony seems to have been a place that may have required attendance at a state church, for all practical purposes.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 05:43AM

To answer your question, no country that I am aware of requires attendance at a state church. Which kind of ruins the whole premise of The OP's hypothetical.

And there are indeed state churches or the equivalent in a fair number of countries.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 03:29PM

Yeah. Recall the Puritans who were being fined and imprisoned for not attending the Church of England.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 06:11AM

Yikes! Bad idea! If you thought LDS Inc. was bad get some politicians and bureaucrats involved. They will raise your taxes to pay for it and if it sucks you still have to pay for it and it just becomes another possible control mechanism to use.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 06:39AM

People who go to prison get a unique social experience. That doesn’t mean it’s a good thing.

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Posted by: Cauda ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 09:02AM

Was born a member of the Swedish state church. Lutherans. The church practice infant baptism. Never was baptised but participated as a kid for a couple of years in weekly lectures called Kyrkans Barntimmar. We sat down in a ring and listened to bible stories. With autism and low empathy I remember I had a hard time getting along and made a mixed impression.

In year 2000 the church and state split.

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 10:19AM

Fascinating that in the military, people are very sharply either one side or the other:

1. Those who love it, feel cozied by the rules and the freedom from having to decide what to think, how to act, or even what to wear.
These are advanced in rank, stay thirty years, and fall apart on retirement.

2. Those who hate it, feel crushed by the rules, and get out ASAP.

Same system.
Two different responses.

So --

What are the personality characteristics of each?
Which becomes a good Mormon, and which becomes an inventor, entrepreneur, or nuclear physicist?

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 10:42AM

How about a 3rd category? People who think it's a good job with good benefits, the positives outweighing the negatives--like lots of job choices?

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 10:51AM

are advanced only to the degree possible by sheer competence, retire at 20 with dignity, and go on to live meaningful lives.

You find these largely mid-career, 10-15 mark, doing a solid job but refusing to sell their integrity.

Sometimes these start out true believers, but have a weakness for thinking for themselves

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 11:22AM


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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 11:41AM

Being cursed with unblinking clarity of vision; an inability to deceive oneself; an obsession with thinking for the self;
combined with vast experience (both literal and through books) -- is it mere cynicism truly?

Or is it perhaps something else?
Something much, much worse, perhaps?


Either way it's cool.


I do like the way you think and questions you ask.
But really -- why the distress when another sees clearly the disturbing? What is at stake? And why?

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 01:59PM

If I read you right, your position is that the military is a somewhat cushy way for people to get an easy job, not have to think much (or think for themselves), and pull a pension in 20-30 years. Yes, I met some of those years ago. We called them "non-hackers."

The military has long been a good career option for all sorts of people, offering personal and professional opportunities: training, travel, new experiences, etc. Some serve for a while, some go the career or lifer route--just like many civilian jobs. The problem of group-think exists in many civilian fields also, where conformity is expected and enforced by cancel culture.

I served in the enlisted ranks (rifleman) and knew men who were escaping jail sentences and men who were getting an early foothold in adulthood. One guy in my fireteam was Cuban, earning his US citizenship--he sure thought for himself!

Incidentally, I have a son who's a 2nd. lieutenant in logistics. He supervises men and women who are responsible for millions of dollars of technology. HIs goal is military chaplaincy.

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but that's my answer.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 03:32PM

"Cancel culture:"

There it is again, the jargon that substitutes for thought. The right accuses the left of "canceling" facts and discussion even as it seeks to cancel a free and fair election, nay to cancel the very constitution that the armed forces have sworn to protect.

Please don't undermine with jargon and innuendo the otherwise valid points you make about the personal and social value of careers in national defense.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 10:43AM


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Posted by: Dr. Barbarian ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 10:45AM

behindcurtain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I like high school because everybody is forced to
> attend. You may like not like being forced to go
> to school, but you do get a unique social
> experience. If everybody is forced to attend a
> state church, you get a unique social experience.
===============================

How is it that everyone being forced to eat the exact same Vlasic pickle, the same way, at the same time,
results in the experience of Vlasic-pickle-eating being unique?

https://sunsongdachshunds.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/miracle.jpg

I feel like that pointy-eared alien: "that does not compute."

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 11:52AM

Would there be saints that you can pray to that will carry your your appeal to God? If so, I would like St. Scarlett of Johansson and St. Gal of Godot, please. Women can St. Jason of Momoa and St. Christopher of Pine. Both men and women can pray to St. Matthew of McConaughey. :-)

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Posted by: ookami ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 12:38PM

"We say these things, in the name of St. Bruce of Campbell, groovy."

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 12:28PM

Sure, because everyone loves being forced to to do something they don't want to do and give money to something they don't believe in or want to contribute to.

We don't need a church acting as a government acting as a church, we already have a government. And I can live with that.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 12:37PM

wow

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Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 12:38PM

In a statement

If you want to FORCE schooling, church, etc., who will be watching all the prisoners?

So much for a free society.

Freaks!

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 03:32PM

behindcurtain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You could
> be outspoken about your doubts, and nobody would
> ostracize you as long as you went through the
> motions in the temple, the chapel, etc.

You are describing Mormonism. As long as you don't try to leave.

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