"This has raised concerns about how to get people to believe in a 'baseline reality'. Increasingly, people are willing to say and believe stuff that fits in with their view of how the world should be, even if it doesn't have any basis in reality or fact," said Chris Jackson, a pollster with Ipsos.

https://www.npr.org/2020/12/30/951095644/even-if-its-bonkers-poll-finds-many-believe-qanon-and-other-conspiracy-theories?

Is there a 'baseline reality' we can agree upon?
like,

Mormonism is a fraud.

Why do we "exmormons" have to come to some kind of agreement on anything?

Edit to add: I didn't join a club here or agree to code of exmormonism, or any other such thing. I simply left the church. One is an act of commission, the other an act of omission.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2021 04:37PM by Devoted Exmo.

So that'd be a no?
Awesome.

In general, I can believe in a baseline reality. I'm just not going to conjure one up for "exmo's". I don't feel the need to try to ascertain what is a good baseline reality in relation to our leaving the mormon church. If it sounds like a fun exercise for you, have at it.

Here's where I'm coming from. I met a really interesting guy in the SF Bay Area who comes from a prominent Mormon family from Utah. He's an exmo. He's gay. He tells me that he believes in the basics of the church and it's his heritage, but it just doesn't work for him and isn't a good fit. What should his baseline reality be, according to you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2021 05:27PM by Devoted Exmo.

Excellent question. If he hasn't resigned then I wonder why he isn't going to church?

Jack Mormon is a term that describes many people. No black and white for Mormonism though it loves to preach it.

People are complicated. That's different from people like conspiracy theories.

Uhh.. we're all the same as when we in mormo-ism, nobody I mean nobody believed the same exact things in the stupid, stupid LDS church.

We had a whole lot less unity on belief structures than maybe admitted.

So, actually, possibly more of the same right now.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "This has raised concerns about how to get people
> to believe in a 'baseline reality'. Increasingly,
> people are willing to say and believe stuff that
> fits in with their view of how the world should
> be, even if it doesn't have any basis in reality
> or fact," said Chris Jackson, a pollster with
> Ipsos.
>
> https://www.npr.org/2020/12/30/951095644/even-if-i
> ts-bonkers-poll-finds-many-believe-qanon-and-other
> -conspiracy-theories?
>
> Is there a 'baseline reality' we can agree upon?
> like,
>
> Mormonism is a fraud.

One way to answer this question is to ask whether there is any proposition that all must believe order to have any worldview at all. Sort of like Descartes' inquiry where he concluded a personal baseline reality that he exists because he can think. Of course, that doesn't tell him, or us, about who else might exist besides ourselves.

More to your point, it seems to me that for a person to even entertain a worldview he or she must believe in a baseline reality such that their worldview itself must somehow be related to sense perceptions, and that *whatever* one believes must ultimately be based upon sense data (what happened as experienced by someone?)--either personal sense data or sense data of others that is deemed by them to be reliable. At this point, you can bring in evidence, such that sense data generally stands as the ultimate evidence for anyone's worldview. The difficulty then is reduced to sorting out what counts as reliable sense data (evidence), and what does not; and, of course, what conclusions can be drawn from sense data deemed to be reliable, and what conclusions cannot.

So, the baseline reality is that human sense data provides a window to reality. (Otherwise no worldview could be formed)
Unfortunately, this leaves matters still pretty wide open.

Finally, this was a thoughtful post, as are most of your posts. Why people on RfM feel the need to attack a post and poster as stupid because they either do not understand it, or are not interested in it, is beyond me. There is a fair amount of cultish insecurity here, which I suppose one has to live with if they want to participate.

G. Salviati Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, the baseline reality is that human sense data
> provides a window to reality. (Otherwise no
> worldview could be formed)
> Unfortunately, this leaves matters still pretty
> wide open.

No it isn't. That is very Lock(ed) blank slate thinking. The absurdity of trying to level a playing field of people based solely on what they don't believe is apparent.

> There is a fair amount of
> cultish insecurity here, which I suppose one has
> to live with if they want to participate.

How magnanimous of you to judge the playing field with such a broad brush on your slated thinking.

Baseline reality for exmormons....

"The mormon church works for some people and not for others. Either way, some people leave and some people stay."

What more do you need or want fom us?

Get with the program, Roy!

There's no way you would have put up with such insubordination when you were an AP.

I'd get with the program if I knew what the program was!

And as an AP...I WAS the program!

You'll always be "the program" to me.

Roy "The Program" I like it!! Kind of like that guy on Jersey Shore, Mike "The Situation".

Now excuse me, I need to go work on my abs.

Since you've ruined "The My Pillow Guy" with your foray into politics, "The Program" is definitely the way to go.

So given Hinkley’s choice,”We all must face it, Either the First Vision was true or it was the greatest fraud ever foisted upon mankind.” We can’t all agree it’s a fraud?
I mean it ain’t the greatest fraud ever foisted upon mankind, I’d say Fascism or Stalinism were both waaaaay bigger frauds with much higher body counts.
But we all ought to be able to agree on that reality, shouldn’t we?

Yes!

And while we're at it, let's all agree that oxygen is neato!

Hey, it's a start.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes!
>
> And while we're at it, let's all agree that oxygen
> is neato!
>
> Hey, it's a start.

It’s apparently not something we can agree upon, judging from the responses above.

I am comfortable with people not agreeing with me. "Agreement" is overrated...

I am comfortable with the placement of factual and semi-factual material for review without trying to shove people's faces into my interpretation of what should be made of the content.

I don't think finding a Truth that fits comfortably (like a banana!) in my grip means a hill of beans to anyone else. Facts may be constants, but personal 'Truths' are malleable.

My Truths are not guaranteed to be of any value to someone else. I wish you could comprehend that knowing all about the Tao and Einstein's ghawd may be useful to you, but not so for others.

Promulgating all that you find exciting and ennobling (in the frankly piss-poor way you do) might help people recovering from mormonism, but being so brutally repetitious is what a few people vociferously object to. You could improve your presentations if you wanted to.

So this group is no better than the rest of America, which can’t agree on any kind of reality?

Why should this group be "Better than the rest of America"...its a slice of America.

It appears you think you'r better then the rest of America, and Ex-mormons, and people that don't do math, and, and, and.....still trying to create a following with you as the leader.

And if a few distrupt every post and don't jump on your band wagon, why do you stay and continue posting the same stuff over and over and over. Why not find a more receptive audience?

Roy G Biv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why should this group be "Better than the rest of
> America"...its a slice of America.

I just assumed that once we left Plato's Cave, we'd find others outside the cave, like us, who recognized that the shadows projected on the wall didn't tell the whole story. But obviously there's a hell of a lot of resistance to that idea and insistence that the shadows projected on the walls are the only valid reality.

> It appears you think you'r better then the rest of
> America, and Ex-mormons, and people that don't do
> math, and, and, and.....still trying to create a
> following with you as the leader.

Bullshit. I don't want any followers.

> And if a few distrupt every post and don't jump on
> your band wagon, why do you stay and continue
> posting the same stuff over and over and over.
> Why not find a more receptive audience?

Because I've got thick skin and I value critical points of view, but the personal attacks are unnecessary and counter productive, don't add anything to the discourse.

"I just assumed that once we left Plato's Cave, we'd find others outside the cave, like us, who recognized that the shadows projected on the wall didn't tell the whole story. But obviously there's a hell of a lot of resistance to that idea and insistence that the shadows projected on the walls are the only valid reality."

Why do you keep insisting such things? And why in the next sentence do you insist that personal attacks against you aren't helpful. But you seem hell bent on attacking every other single person who doesn't fall in line with you as some how deluded and inferior in their thinking?

Devoted Exmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I just assumed that once we left Plato's Cave,
> we'd find others outside the cave, like us, who
> recognized that the shadows projected on the wall
> didn't tell the whole story. But obviously there's
> a hell of a lot of resistance to that idea and
> insistence that the shadows projected on the walls
> are the only valid reality."
>
> Why do you keep insisting such things? And why in
> the next sentence do you insist that personal
> attacks against you aren't helpful. But you seem
> hell bent on attacking every other single person
> who doesn't fall in line with you as some how
> deluded and inferior in their thinking?

Nevermind. You're right. Have it your way.
We can't agree on anything.
There is no such thing as objective reality.
Truth is non-existent.
Reality is non-existent.
Mormonism isn't a fraud.
It's nothing because everything is nothing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2021 12:23PM by schrodingerscat.

All or nothing, is that it?

Devoted Exmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All or nothing, is that it?

I was being facetious, which I thought ought to be obvious, but nothing is as it seems in this forum, because we can't even agree that the Mormon church is a fraud, that there's any such thing as truth or lies, or that there's even a 'baseline reality'.

I was just curious to see if there was any kind of a 'baseline reality' we could agree upon, but obviously, there's not.
Just because I think it's a fraud, doesn't mean that's the consensus here, in an ExMormon forum, when NOTHING is a consensus here and we can't even agree that there is any such thing as "reality" or "truth".

You wanted the baseline to be that the church is a fraud. You wanted agreement on that. When I pointed out that not everyone who has left the church would be in agreement with that, you devolved to "when NOTHING is a consensus here and we can't even agree that there is any such thing as "reality" or "truth"."

You didn't try to find a baseline reality. You just insisted that your baseline reality should be universally understood here and we'd all fall in line with that.

Devoted Exmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You wanted the baseline to be that the church is a
> fraud. You wanted agreement on that. When I
> pointed out that not everyone who has left the
> church would be in agreement with that, you
> devolved to "when NOTHING is a consensus here and
> we can't even agree that there is any such thing
> as "reality" or "truth"."
>
> You didn't try to find a baseline reality. You
> just insisted that your baseline reality should be
> universally understood here and we'd all fall in
> line with that.

I was just throwing out a suggestion that I thought would be something we could agree upon. Apparently not, since we can't agree on ANYthing here, not even the meaning of a common word in the English language.
Forget I brought it up.
I should have known better.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2021 01:19PM by schrodingerscat.

I'm sorry we continue to be a source of disappointment for you. I hope you can take comfort in the fact that we are always wrong and you are much more enlightened. That's got to be worth something.

There is no reality we can agree upon, so what's the point of continuing this conversation?
Like I said, forget I brought it up.

I'm sure we can forget...until you bring it up again and again and again.....you're not reading the crowd here dude.

Spoken like a true child.

I suppose your dad can beat up my dad too? And I bet he knows karate.

It's always "All or nothing" to a good mormon mom.

Someone up-thread mentioned 'Black & White Thinking'... To my surprise, Kodak claims that they've had to increase their production of B&W 35mm film because of a continuing rise in requests to purchase it!

Likewise, B&W thinking obviously exists and is probably enjoying a similar renaissance. Just not here.

Not that things couldn't change, but so far the defense against it remains adequate. No one is telling you to leave, but sometimes it's painful to watch your B&W butt floundering in a sea of luxuriant color. At least you're to spot.

You just need to come to grips with the notion that you're as ordinary as the rest of us.


The opinions stated above are entirely the responsibility of Radio Station K-EOD, all rock, all the time!

> It's nothing because everything is nothing.

Amusing.

When you write as parody you unintentionally come closer to understanding the Tao than you ever have before. The core of the philosophy is precisely "wu," or "nothing."

Everything is nothing unless it is dark then it energizes everyone.

>> "...but the personal attacks are unnecessary and counter productive..."

So if people call BS on your subject matter or grow weary of its constant repition, its a personal attack on you?

OK, I think I get you now.

I don't really care what Hinkley thought about it anymore than I care what the guy in the Bay Area thought about it. Why do you have such a strong desire for consensus?

Why does any insecure person desire consensus? To avoid the vulnerability of being apart from the herd.

Insecuritying is believing.

Sure half of the people in the world are major assholes, the other half are not. It applies to both TBM's and ex-mos.

I call it the Bell-Shaped Curve of Being.

But in this case, as in many involving rational/irrational beings, we're all looking at a B-SC of our own invention/creation. And we all grade/judge on a different curve of the Curve. ...curving...someday it, too, will be both a winter and summer Olympic game!

When I've had too much to drink, I'll sway there and argue that only those who have gotten off the merry-go-round are able to form a definitive point of view regarding existence on the merry-go-round of life.

Those still on it just keep going in circles...and oh so many actually think they're going somewhere!!



Yep...can you tell I had two O'Douls with dinner?

Science

donbagley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Science


Ha! Global Warming, Social (offended) Injustice, Counting Votes or Pandemic Deaths, Cancel History Cultures, Fake News or Hype News, Energy Crisis Sensationalism, Virus Management, Chemtrails, Bigfoot and Aliens too!

Maybe Ben Shapiro should maybe be consulted?

Reality stands on its own. Anytime you add an adjective you have compromised the words integrity and made it useless.

"Baseline Reality" is the same as 'my truth, your truth" which of course isn't truth at all and are quite ridiculous.

Adjectives are often the enemy.

Reality is often confused with Perception.



Besides that---What Devoted Exmo said for sure. And always what EoD says.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Reality stands on its own. Anytime you add an
> adjective you have compromised the words integrity
> and made it useless.
>
> "Baseline Reality" is the same as 'my truth, your
> truth" which of course isn't truth at all and are
> quite ridiculous.
>
> Adjectives are often the enemy.
>
> Reality is often confused with Perception.
>
> Besides that---What Devoted Exmo said for sure.
> And always what EoD says.

Reality is exmormon was once a superstitious LDS person.

Lots of hang-on's or hold overs from once belonging to the mormo-ism faith are appearing at points and places we probably never really expect.

The comfort cult of atheism and agnosticism has the most intriguing attraction to abused LDS persons sometimes.

Oh, and mailing your voting ballots didn't cause problems.

Biggest reality, don't set expectations and never suffer disappointed feelings. Sorry the slippery eel bothered you so much SC, next time maybe pretend that you're maybe dealing with gagons of hang-on's.

josephssmmyth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lots of hang-on's or hold overs from once
> belonging to the mormo-ism faith are appearing at
> points and places we probably never really
> expect.

Yeah, like your blackhole.

> Biggest reality, don't set expectations and never
> suffer disappointed feelings. Sorry the slippery
> eel bothered you so much SC, next time maybe
> pretend that you're maybe dealing with gagons of
> hang-on's.

Works for you I guess.

Oh please, Mary.

At least he's no Karen.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> josephssmmyth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lots of hang-on's or hold overs from once
> > belonging to the mormo-ism faith are appearing
> at
> > points and places we probably never really
> > expect.
>
> Yeah, like your blackhole.
>
> > Biggest reality, don't set expectations and
> never
> > suffer disappointed feelings. Sorry the
> slippery
> > eel bothered you so much SC, next time maybe
> > pretend that you're maybe dealing with gagons
> of
> > hang-on's.
>
> Works for you I guess.

Truth, reality matter, blackholes scatter..

"Oh, and mailing your voting ballots didn't cause problems"

Are some strang realities ripe and everywhere and even here?

josephssmmyth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are some strang realities ripe and everywhere and
> even here?

Only for those who seek to be kings at RfM using their rake views to further their agendas.

Strang ways have come here.

https://www.michiganradio.org/post/how-mormon-king-shaped-sleepy-island-lake-michigan#:~:text=In%20the%201840s%2C%20James%20Jesse,people%20competing%20to%20succeed%20him.

"Baseline reality" is such an Orwellian phrase.

That is a very, very good point.

Snowballed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Baseline reality" is such an Orwellian phrase.

How then do we title the manifold strange reality right here?


Are these both two quick and easy one's?


"Oh, and mailing your voting ballots didn't cause problems" &
"The Atlantic and Politico news rags fall often into tabloid status"

> "Oh, and mailing your voting ballots didn't cause
> problems"

Didn't you just complain about moremany introducing politics into threads unnecessarily? Yet here you do the same thing.

Funny, that.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > "Oh, and mailing your voting ballots didn't
> cause
> > problems"
>
> Didn't you just complain about moremany
> introducing politics into threads unnecessarily?
> Yet here you do the same thing.
>
> Funny, that.

Too generic to be political.
Neither party is favored, same as news outlet tabloid status.

Your mistake, not mine.. heh

"Ha! Global Warming, Social (offended) Injustice, Counting Votes or Pandemic Deaths, Cancel History Cultures, Fake News or Hype News, Energy Crisis Sensationalism, Virus Management, Chemtrails, Bigfoot and Aliens too!"

From above. Yet again.

Heh

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Ha! Global Warming, Social (offended) Injustice,
> Counting Votes or Pandemic Deaths, Cancel History
> Cultures, Fake News or Hype News, Energy Crisis
> Sensationalism, Virus Management, Chemtrails,
> Bigfoot and Aliens too!"
>
> From above. Yet again.
>
> Heh

You of all peeps appreciate strong satire,, Bigfoot, Chemtrails are favorites..

Apologies to the serious BF and CT adherant's ha ha ha!

Hey, Lots-O-Wives, did we maybe already settle we can't settle a baseline reality? Perhaps satire helps a little..

Is the word of the day maybe still, Peachy?

I love how you and SC use "joking" as a way to avoid taking responsibility for what you post.

Gift wrapping help?

Want the bow?