I'm a little nervous posting on here,but I don't know where else to ask this question in a group setting without people becoming bent out of shape.

  I'm an adult convert of several years. I'm the only member in my family so we're ,you know,  a part member family. Anyway, we have the fast and testimony meetings. Attending these out of state in our former location was a little different as people including myself shared stories and spiritual experiences. Some where truly inspired and I found myself admiring how deep and insightful the expressions where. Here in Utah something seems off! Let me explain:

  People keep approaching the podium and barely say anything except repeatedly saying,"I know the church is true." Well, if you know it's true why do you have to keep saying it in a way that makes me wonder who you're trying to convince? It's so cringey to me like I can sense the internal conflict. Is this a training some Utah peeps receive, to speak those words?


I actually did ask a friend from church whose lived here all his life. He told me he's never understood it at all either, but that no one questions it.

  I guess my thing is if you believe in something you believe in it. If it's a personal truth you carry you generally don't need to state it repeatedly. I wonder if the need to state it repeatedly is indicative of a lack of belief. All I know is when people do this it makes me way to pray with them. Please don't knock me for being a member I fully support peoples freedom to come and go and explore other paths. I believe heavenly father does as well, especially those who where baptized as kids because they had to be and may not have even understood what it meant! Anyway, insights into this off putting phenomenon?

Repetition is how the idea gets stronger in the individual's and group's minds.

You don't need to say "I know the sun will rise in the east" all the time because it is fact. When something is not fact, they try to make it true by repeating it over and over.

Of course we know the statement is not true because they cannot KNOW that the faith based claims of the church are what they teach.

The way to make anything stronger in our minds is repetition. We repeat the alphabet to a preschooler over and over so it gets memorized. The mind doesn't necessarily distinguish what is factual. The church memes become prominent and get repeated like a bunch of parrots.

Also, that statement is code for "I am a strong member of this club" and sort of a humble brag. The ones who won't say it may be viewed as not as strong and possibly not as trustworthy.

Really this operates like any "big lie" system. They are told something and the repetition substitutes for external verification.

Welcome to the board. This place can be rough and confrontational, but it is also funny and full of things to learn and consider.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Repetition is how the idea gets stronger in the
> individual's and group's minds.
>
> You don't need to say "I know the sun will rise in
> the east" all the time because it is fact. When
> something is not fact, they try to make it true by
> repeating it over and over.
>
> Of course we know the statement is not true
> because they cannot KNOW that the faith based
> claims of the church are what they teach.
>
> The way to make anything stronger in our minds is
> repetition. We repeat the alphabet to a
> preschooler over and over so it gets memorized.
> The mind doesn't necessarily distinguish what is
> factual. The church memes become prominent and get
> repeated like a bunch of parrots.
>
> Also, that statement is code for "I am a strong
> member of this club" and sort of a humble brag.
> The ones who won't say it may be viewed as not as
> strong and possibly not as trustworthy.
>
> Really this operates like any "big lie" system.
> They are told something and the repetition
> substitutes for external verification.
>
> Welcome to the board. This place can be rough and
> confrontational, but it is also funny and full of
> things to learn and consider.

Funny, when people say that it makes them seem less like a person I'd trust in spiritual matters. Lots of nice people say it I'm just not a fan. I have nothing to prove on this spiritual journey at least not to ward members. People can receive that how they choose, but I've always found the statement to seem forced.

It's:

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's:
>
> Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

They know that.

See, Mormonism is the LATHER

It's the Lather in Latter
That makes you all skrubbed

It takes what is Clean in you and pollutes and taints it, and takes from you, your natural soap.

"No matter how the doctrines, beliefs, teachings, descriptions, oaths, and prophecies change, I know the church was, is, and will always be as true as it possibly can, which I say in Joseph Smith's name, amen."


Given that the church I grew up in no longer exists, the above must be the mantra of older mormons.

> Given that the church I grew up in no longer
> exists . . .

Aren't those just the facts, ma'am?

When I left the church, a well-meaning former missionary companion gave me a book on JS. I skimmed it and realized there were now three Joseph Smiths: the one the church teaches today, the one we taught when on our missions, and the real one. And none of them are the same.

There is no "church," no enduring substance, other than the name on the door--and sometimes they even mess with that.

It's self-indoctrination. Constant repetition serves to reinforce beliefs, especially when those beliefs have no basis in fact.

"Oh, if I could teach you this one principle. A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it!" (Boyd Packer)

"We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them." (Dallin Oaks)

I sounds like you attend church fairly regularly. If that is true then go attend the junior Sunday school opening exercises on fast Sunday. You will see small children, often many of them in a row, one after the other, stand up to the microphone and repeat what the nice lady behind them tells them to say.

It goes something like this:

I want to bare my testimony
I know the church is true
I know President Monson (or whoever it is) is a prophet
I love my Mom and Dad
I love my brothers and sisters
Name a Jesus Christ, amen

Usually it's the same kids over and over. Usually it's the same words over and over. And when these small children graduate to senior Sunday school, the repetition continues without the nice lady behind them telling them what to say.

It's all part of the brainwashing that goes on from a very early age. These kids don't know what they are saying, they are just following along doing what they are programmed to do.

sunbeep Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I sounds like you attend church fairly regularly.
> If that is true then go attend the junior Sunday
> school opening exercises on fast Sunday. You will
> see small children, often many of them in a row,
> one after the other, stand up to the microphone
> and repeat what the nice lady behind them tells
> them to say.
>
> It goes something like this:
>
> I want to bare my testimony
> I know the church is true
> I know President Monson (or whoever it is) is a
> prophet
> I love my Mom and Dad
> I love my brothers and sisters
> Name a Jesus Christ, amen
>
> Usually it's the same kids over and over. Usually
> it's the same words over and over. And when these
> small children graduate to senior Sunday school,
> the repetition continues without the nice lady
> behind them telling them what to say.
>
> It's all part of the brainwashing that goes on
> from a very early age. These kids don't know what
> they are saying, they are just following along
> doing what they are programmed to do.

Oh let's file this under things that will not be done to my son! A testimony of anything is created through experience, through the heart. You know, spiritually I'd rather my kids question and explore than parrot. That is just not acceptable to me. I grew up in a different church and yea,they told us stuff and I remember going along but feeling nothing. I'd just rather my kids fumble spiritually and ask questions, than grow up to resent something pressed upon them.

AalaRae Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sunbeep Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> and even smaller children
> >
> > It goes something like this:
> >
> > bury tesimony
> > th church twoo
> > bess pofhet
> > Mommy n Daddy
> > bovers n sissrs
> > Name Jeess Cise
amen
> >
> > Usually it's the same kids over and over.

"I'd just rather my kids fumble spiritually and ask questions, than grow up to resent something pressed upon them."

What a Great way to raise another. Let them have their own views, outlook, beliefs...

Excellent

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1207CtOW6F0

You might find this of interest.

Oh wow. So that must be what I'm hearing from some of these Utah peeps. The "canned" version. That's kind of sad, I will not and have not spoken that way.. but you know..live and let live. Thanks,heartless, and the other people who shared their experiences with this without being unkind just because I'm not "one of you". Best wishes to each of you.

At one time the church put out a "canned" testimony.

Basically acknowledge the church is true, the prophet is a prophet, Joseph was a prophet and the book of mormon is true.

No monologues, travel guides or life stories.

Heartless Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At one time the church put out a "canned" testimony.
>

Wow, I wonder if that's like opening a can of whoop ass.

>
> No monologues, travel guides or life stories.


Dang!

It's all for show. They do it to keep their facade in tact.

And yes. I will knock you for being a Mormon. What are you doing here? And you already used another name on another thread, again with the kids and baptism thing.

Then asking us to respect you when we are here because Mormonism is a fraud.

What's your story, Morning Glory?

I was asking to not be attacked is all. Did you think I require you to respect my beliefs? I don't, butninwould like respect as a human being. You're mayhe trigerred and thats something I hope you can work on. That said, I'll share. I came upon a thread on here bc I typed in a question about Utah on google. Is that a problemo? I could've lied and said I wasn't a member but I'd rather be honest in my dealings. I've always had a problem with religion being forced on kids and believe people should get thier own testimonies of whatever they believe. That's the story. I've been pretty open. I won't engage further though because your behavior is little abrasive for my liking. I hope I'm never that bitter and exclusive to other people.

Um, D&D just made a brief comment/question. You're the one unleashing the industrial strength rant. Deep breath.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're the one unleashing the industrial strength rant.

> Deep breath.

lol

Your definition of rant is way off, like by a mile... and then a smile. They simply defended themselves and then refuse to get dragged into something.

What would you do?

Jesus

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> And yes. I will knock you for being a Mormon.

Why knock on someone?
Wood you knock on yourself?

> What are you doing here?

Nobody needs to explain to anyone here what they are doing here (most people never do). Not to me anyway.

And you already used
> another name on another thread, again with the
> kids and baptism thing.
>
> Then asking us to respect you [when we are here because Mormonism is a fraud].

Nobody asked to be respected, But Me. Well, I demand it. I'd never ask for it.
They might have meant their situation.

> What's your story, Morning Glory?

They don't have to tell you.
(They told us in the opening)
Or they might charge for it like a reasonable person would

I'll knock a 'Mormon' but only in person. I think that's where they should be knocked.

Knock on would

Wow! You sure told me!

We have a Mormon bearing their testimony on a Recovery from Mormonism site and you wish to coddle them. Kid gloves and all.

I asked some questions. I made my point of view clear. There is nothing wrong with asking someone what's the deal. Nothing. Asking a question any reporter would ask. Why are you here? What is your goal?

You arrogantly trashed me.

Bye Felicia.

“Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt. It is when we are unsure that we are doubly sure. ”


― Reinhold Neibuhr

Neibuhr was an interesting man. He and Morgenthau were the original realpolitik thinkers in the United States.

They are essentially saying

repeatedly saying,"I know the church is true." Well, if you know it's true why do you have to keep saying it in a way that makes me wonder who you're trying to convince? It's so cringey to me like I can sense the internal conflict. Is this a training some Utah peeps receive, to speak those words?


I actually did ask a friend... He [said] that no one questions it.

Except, those who do, and THAT'S IMPORTANT, because it means you are listening (to reality/ the silly small voices/ yourself/ your spirit/ your heart/ whatever)!

It's reinforcing the tension of Mormonism, maybe wanting it to be ["true" or FALSE] forth'right', honest, of God, etc., but knowing at heart it isn't, and it doesn't feel right...

People don't want that tension, but no they need it the force them to believe it.

Something like that

Butch was five years old. Our chapel was a rented hall in a park near Pottstown. We used the upstairs of the hall, and we had folding chairs set out for the congregation instead of pews. There was no air-conditioning, and all the widows were thrown open. Testimony-bearers would walk to the front of the room and turn to face the crowd. The same went for those who had to give a "talk," as did Butch today. Five, and he had to go humiliate himself in front of god and every asshole.

I was the only deacon in the "branch," so I passed every sacrament and sat up front to the side. When Butch walked past me, I cringed. He had the slump of a boy whose father had heavy hands. His hair was crew cut and slick with sweat. He planted his pinchy black leather shoes on the hardwood floor in front of the heat-exhausted congregation. "My talk is about," he said, "my talk is about." He said it over and over until his father went to him and whispered at him. "My talk is about." He was carried away in tears.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2021 10:22PM by donbagley.

That was great.

True stories, and great fiction, always is.

I bet I know what happened to him after he was carried away: His dad (and probably mom too) got carried away.

Now that you're in the Moridor, you're getting full-strength, unadulterated Mormonism. There's no substance to it. It's all about conformity. And the speakers you describe are simply making it clear that they conform with no ifs, ands or buts.

It sounds like where you came from, people tried to imbue it with a little more meaning. But there's no point in Utah. It's all meaningless. They just pretend--or delude themselves into believing--that it isn't.

Gordon B. Stinky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now that you're in the Moridor, you're getting
> full-strength, unadulterated Mormonism. There's no
> substance to it. It's all about conformity. And
> the speakers you describe are simply making it
> clear that they conform with no ifs, ands or buts.
>
>
> It sounds like where you came from, people tried
> to imbue it with a little more meaning. But
> there's no point in Utah. It's all meaningless.
> They just pretend--or delude themselves into
> believing--that it isn't.

In our last locale I have friends on all different levels of intensity. Here in Utah some people seem you know..balanced. however a certain amount are maybe I don't know a little glazed over and there's a rigidity. Sheesh, I'm glad others know what I mean.

Welcome, AalaRae! As long as you don't try to proselytize on this board, you'll be fine. This is a (mostly) safe space to discuss whatever you want. We may nibble a bit but we won't bite.

In addition to what people are saying above, "I know the church is true" is also used to try to persuade potential converts. And like you, I find the phrase to be very odd. If you "know" that the church is true, what is that supposed to do with what I believe? You believe what you believe. It has nothing to do with my belief.

Also, people have noted repeatedly on this board that mission field Mormonism can be quite different from Utah Mormonism. Many people have moved to "Zion" and been quite disappointed in that regard. You are not the only one.

Yes, it's a bit like the old adage about truly innocent men not running down the street protesting their innocence.

Of course, Joseph Smith was far from an innocent man. Same goes for Brigham Young.

True story.

I've spent long stretches of time in what certain pols would term "shithole countries." One of the things locals never understand about Westerners is their fascination with exercise. Things like putting food on the table and avoiding the tropical sun are higher priorities.

So once I was walking down an urban street with a local friend when a Westerner jogged by. My friend said, "I wonder what she stole. . ."

Hehehe

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Welcome, AalaRae! As long as you don't try to
> proselytize on this board, you'll be fine. This is
> a (mostly) safe space to discuss whatever you
> want. We may nibble a bit but we won't bite.
>
> In addition to what people are saying above, "I
> know the church is true" is also used to try to
> persuade potential converts. And like you, I find
> the phrase to be very odd. If you "know" that the
> church is true, what is that supposed to do with
> what I believe? You believe what you believe. It
> has nothing to do with my belief.
>
> Also, people have noted repeatedly on this board
> that mission field Mormonism can be quite
> different from Utah Mormonism. Many people have
> moved to "Zion" and been quite disappointed in
> that regard. You are not the only one.


Thank you, Summer. Yea, I wouldn't proselytize here ever. I've gained alot of insight regarding Utah vs. Everywhere else. It feels like there's a kindness but also an odd distance between people.

The big lie is the one repeated the most.

The "church" is an inanimate object. It cannot think, reason, speak listen or sing! HOWEVER the people that have gained power within the organization CAN!
Therefore it is the opinions of these people and the power that we give them over us that leads us to make the "I know it is true" statement.
The church people in power only have as much power over you as you allow them.