...it really is a miracle that the leaders of LDS ChurchCo have kept so many people so enthralled for so long in their organized worship of Joe Smith's con-artist fabricated bullshit.

For example, let's just look at some of the inexplicable inconsistencies in the Golden Plates tale.

On the one hand, Joe has to get his hands on the physical golden plates in order to translate the ancient text into English.

But on the other hand, he doesn't really need the physical golden plates because he can just see the entire text through the brown rock he calls a seer stone or, alternatively, through the "Urim and Thummim" crystals that reportedly are mounted on a breastplate.

But then he also sometimes calls the brown rock the "Urim and Thummim" just to confuse things further.

Then there's the problem of keeping the golden plates safe because they're gold and precious and bad guys want to steal them.

But at the same time, it seems that the angel (or at least AN angel) always has them in his own custody, which is why the Three Witnesses (Witlesses) had to wait for an angel to bring the golden plates to them, so that they could do their big witnessing thing.

According to John Whitmer's story about his Grandma Whitmer seeing the golden plates, Nephi (not Moroni) had the plates in a backpack and, after pulling them out and showing them to Grandma W., Nephi quickly stuffed them back in the backpack and immediately vanished. Chronologically, this would probably have been around the same time that Joe was going to great lengths to hide the plates here and there to protect them. Poor Joe going to all that trouble while the angel or angels were borrowing them anytime they pleased and schlepping them all over the place in backpacks.

According to other tall tales told by Joe and Ollie, the golden plates were managed by Moroni. So you've got at least two angels, Nephi and Moroni, who are running around with the golden plates. I wonder if they had angelic check-out cards (like in libraries), so that god could keep track of who had most recently checked out the golden plates.

So while the angels are obviously still managing security for the golden plates, we get strange scenarios where Joe, in one instance, has to run through the woods with these extremely heavy plates to keep them out of the hands of would-be thieves and, in another instance, supposedly has to hide them in a barrel of beans or something like that. So what was that all about? If some bad guys actually stole them, wouldn't it just be easy as pie for Nephi and Moroni to zap the bad guys down and get their precious plates back? Were both Moroni and Nephi on vacation and they couldn't keep the plates in the angelic vault where they usually had them?

Then there were other times where they were supposedly in a box or under a cloth.

The whole thing is such an obvious bullshit story that it is truly painful at times to see adult Mormons going along with it.

I've heard better bullshit stories from drunken ignoramuses in bars. At least the drunken ignoramuses could catch themselves in the middle of saying something that contradicted what they had said just a few minutes earlier.

I mean when I was younger I tried really hard to believe because I love my family and I respect my TBM parents for so many reasons. But by the time I got into my early twenties, after having served a mission, it was just so obvious that it was a bullshit story made up by a low-budget bullshit artist named Joe Smith. I couldn't even try to believe anymore and I couldn't pretend.

It's like trying to believe in Santa Claus to make your parents and friends happy. But it's even worse. In this story, there are real guys in business suits who try to tell you that Santa Claus want you to pay TO THEM 10% of your income. And then it's even worse than worse when you find out that the guy who made up the original bullshit story made up similar bullshit stories so that he could get into the panties of underaged girls and married women.

I love my TBM friends and family members, but for the life of me I just don't see how they continue believing these absurd bullshit stories. But, as Hinckley might say, that's the miracle of it. It could be that this is the miracle that keeps Mormons going back for more. They tell themselves: "I can't believe that I actually believe this shit! There's no reason for believing this shit! It's the craziest shit I ever heard! It's a miracle that I believe this shit. That means it's holy shit and you have to believe holy shit. [cue the melody] And that's why I believe..."

BTW, pardon my French here. I don't usually like to use the bullshit word without deleting a vowel or something. But there really doesn't seem to be an adequate substitute adjective for describing the ridiculous lies made up by Joe Smith and his enablers.

I like how he would read the word out loud while "translating" and then the scribe would read it back to him. Joe had to make sure it was taken down correctly. The word would then disappear. Cool. That way we know it is the most correct book.

Strange thing about it, when it got to the printer it was chock full of poor grammar and misspelled words. Weird how that happened in spite of such a tight translation method. :)

Yes specially given that Oliver had worked as a school teacher.

If the translation was given word for word by the stone....er, I mean by the Holy Spirit working through the stone. Then that makes the KJV passages very problematical. Specially given that KJV translation errors crept into the BOM text.

But, on the other hand, we are told that Joseph just had the ideas put into his head and he used his own language to express them (Joseph spoke in Elizabethian Englishs??) and when he came to a passage that was similar to a Bible passage he just used the KJV language he was familiar with. If THIS is the explanation then you have to throw out all the "chiasmus" and "semitic syntax" arguments that the apologists have fallen back on now that the archaeological record has come up empty.

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes specially given that Oliver had worked as a
> school teacher.
>
> If the translation was given word for word by the
> stone....er, I mean by the Holy Spirit working
> through the stone. Then that makes the KJV
> passages very problematical. Specially given that
> KJV translation errors crept into the BOM text.
>
> But, on the other hand, we are told that Joseph
> just had the ideas put into his head and he used
> his own language to express them (Joseph spoke in
> Elizabethian Englishs??) and when he came to a
> passage that was similar to a Bible passage he
> just used the KJV language he was familiar with.
> If THIS is the explanation then you have to throw
> out all the "chiasmus" and "semitic syntax"
> arguments that the apologists have fallen back on
> now that the archaeological record has come up
> empty.

The apologists want to have their cake and eat it too.

When there are problematic KJV passages (including KJV translation errors) then it was JS using his own words (borrowed, really) to express the ideas.

But then when they find Chiasmus or other 'Hebraisms' then it's a verbatim translation.

Choose one, please; either will do. Either explain the KJV problem or shut up about 'Hebraisms.'

The apologists have never seemed to come up with a good cover story for that problem. I expect that someday one of the prominent Mopologists will try to explain it as being the result of dust or boogers on the peepstone--you know, the "faults of men" not of Gawd. Joseph Smith was so impatient to produce the Marvelous Work and a Wonder that he sometimes forgot to clean his rock. ;o)

I believe they say that "cleaning your own rock" is a sin next to murder...

It can therefore be said that only he who has the stones may clean his own rock without fear of retribution.

You hit the nail on the head here.

All the historical evidence indicates that Joseph Smith was essentially just a petty con artist, and an ignorant, arrogant, narcissistic one to boot. He was, however, also apparently extremely charismatic in person, and what he lacked in intelligence or memory he certainly made up for in the ability to lie, distort, obfuscate, and spread doubt and uncertainty. In short, he was the perfect cult leader.

+1

Thanks so much for the post. You helped to clarify some of the inconsistencies that I have been thinking about recently. They were all nebulous ideas floating around my brain until I read you post.

Why were the plates gold? I was always told that the Nephites used gold because it was abundant (or was it scarce?) and that it doesn't rust or tarnish and was therefore durable. But god didn't make Abraham use gold plates to transmit information, but used papyrus AND from a supposed much earlier time. Couldn't Moroni just have used papyrus too? That way he could have written the whole thing in Hebrew *giggle*.

Just because it was written in reformed Eqyptian does not mean that it was written in Egypt. I don't think papyrus was found in the new world until introduced from Europe in the modern age. I could be wrong...

Correct, although many Mesoamerican cultures had paper they did not have Egyptian-style papyrus. In fact, it would have made far more sense for Moroni to have written the book on perfectly ordinary paper, like the literally thousands of books written by the various Mesoamerican civilizations (most of which were burned by the Spanish).

Of course, this entire argument is pretty much pointless, because neither Moroni nor the Golden Plates actually existed.

He is so bright and funny and I just am so deflated. Who would want to believe this crap? He doesn't care if it's true or not- he wants to believe, ARGHHHHH!

Why does it feel SOOO good to hear the truth so bluntly?

After going through all of the trouble of dealing with angels, translating sacred texts, getting financing for publishing and everything, just so Gawd could get this extremely sacred and important record into the hands of the right people in order for it to be used for instruction and divine guidance for all posterity......

.....well, after all that, Joe decides that maybe it's a good idea to sell the copyright to anyone in Canada who might be willing to pay a decent price for it.

Of course, once the copyright was sold, God's prophet guy would no longer have any control over the use or modification of the Book of Mormon in Canada whatsoever. It could be converted into pornography. The Strippling Warriors could become the "Stripping Warriors" and neither Gawd nor Joe could do anything about it. They sold the copyright fair and square. I guess they figured Canadians were expendable and probably wouldn't get anything out of the Book of Mormon anyway.

Yep. Pure, unadulterated, patently obvious bullshit. And the franchise just keeps on going.

To me, the biggest piece of BS is that after he did all that translating, the plates were magically gone, and taken up into heaven.

So where are they now, asked a former colleague of mine?

"In heaven." I meekly mumnbled in anansweras a then-TBM.

Yeah, right!

"So, The Church has the plates translated into The Book of Mormon at church headquarters in Salt Lake City?"

"Well, no." "They were taken by an angel back to Heaven, though I think "back" isn't right." "The were found in the ground."

Why would they need them in heaven? Maybe God needed more gold to make more bling for his throne room. ;o)

Elohim needed the gold so he could aerosolize it into his home planet's atmosphere to counteract the global warming effects being caused by Kolob generating too much heat & light due to so many kolobians praying to find their car keys.

I thought everybody knew that.

If God wanted an easier job for missionaries, he'd simply ask Moroni, or Nephi (or whoever was working the desk that day) to pop down to Temple Square and have a show & tell with the plates. Really, why exactly does heaven need the golden plates? Wouldn't they be a lot more effective down here for research & missionary work? And, they'd prove the church is true, so people wouldn't have to give so many tearful and/or boring testimonies.

leave the papyrus kicking around this long? JS sold tickets and let people in to look at it.

why Don't we Have the scribes copy, as dictated by JS?


Why Don't We Have the (exact) DATES of:

-the 1st Vision?

-Restoration of Penishood?

Gosh; I guess they Just Weren't Important Enough to WRITE DOWN!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2011 03:26PM by guynoirprivateeye.

Smith actually did write down the date of the First Vision, he just changed his mind about that date enough times that it's never mentioned any more. Over the years he gave at least four separate dates, some of them separated by multiple years.

Your account proves you are simply smarter than many of us, who took much longer to figure this out!

I heard that the streets in telestial kingdom are paved with gold, so maybe they needed the plates because one of the bricks came loose.

It all started when they dropped the part about Moroni appearing as a Toad, then kicking Joe Smith's tail. None of it makes sense without the Toad story. With the Toad story, it all becomes clear that Joe was using some seriously powerful acid.

Very well said ! and thanks for doing it.

Hinckley not only said "thats the miracle of it"
Hinckley described the Joe SMith story as "preposterous"
but ppl are to believe it anyway as they are instructed to by MORmON BS artists.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWknakABlfc

Dactrin, I have the same problem! I see my TBM friends and family posting tripe from Monson or some other Mormon on Facebook and it's all I can do to not post some reply to them asking how they can still believe this BS. I sometimes seriously want to ask them if they still believe in Santa Claus too! I wonder if they are putting Soma into the Sacrament water to keep them pacified and unthinking.

"...So you've got at least two angels, Nephi and Moroni, who are running around with the golden plates..."

That's easy, the angel Xeroxoni, made a copy, so that there were two sets of plates (they were jewish, right, so you need two sets to be kosher...)

"Xeroxoni" LOL!

You just made my day!

This wins the "post of the month" award.

It is painful sometimes to think of family members that are highly intelligent, successful people yet they (and I until a few years ago) believe so strongly in something that is such an obvious fraud.

Gorspel Dacktrin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...it really is a miracle that the leaders of LDS
> ChurchCo have kept so many people so enthralled
> for so long in their organized worship of Joe
> Smith's con-artist fabricated bullshit.
>
> For example, let's just look at some of the
> inexplicable inconsistencies in the Golden Plates
> tale.
>
> On the one hand, Joe has to get his hands on the
> physical golden plates in order to translate the
> ancient text into English.
>
> But on the other hand, he doesn't really need the
> physical golden plates because he can just see the
> entire text through the brown rock he calls a seer
> stone or, alternatively, through the "Urim and
> Thummim" crystals that reportedly are mounted on a
> breastplate.
>
> But then he also sometimes calls the brown rock
> the "Urim and Thummim" just to confuse things
> further.
>
> Then there's the problem of keeping the golden
> plates safe because they're gold and precious and
> bad guys want to steal them.
>
> But at the same time, it seems that the angel (or
> at least AN angel) always has them in his own
> custody, which is why the Three Witnesses
> (Witlesses) had to wait for an angel to bring the
> golden plates to them, so that they could do their
> big witnessing thing.
>
> According to John Whitmer's story about his
> Grandma Whitmer seeing the golden plates, Nephi
> (not Moroni) had the plates in a backpack and,
> after pulling them out and showing them to Grandma
> W., Nephi quickly stuffed them back in the
> backpack and immediately vanished.
> Chronologically, this would probably have been
> around the same time that Joe was going to great
> lengths to hide the plates here and there to
> protect them. Poor Joe going to all that trouble
> while the angel or angels were borrowing them
> anytime they pleased and schlepping them all over
> the place in backpacks.
>
> According to other tall tales told by Joe and
> Ollie, the golden plates were managed by Moroni.
> So you've got at least two angels, Nephi and
> Moroni, who are running around with the golden
> plates. I wonder if they had angelic check-out
> cards (like in libraries), so that god could keep
> track of who had most recently checked out the
> golden plates.
>
> So while the angels are obviously still managing
> security for the golden plates, we get strange
> scenarios where Joe, in one instance, has to run
> through the woods with these extremely heavy
> plates to keep them out of the hands of would-be
> thieves and, in another instance, supposedly has
> to hide them in a barrel of beans or something
> like that. So what was that all about? If some bad
> guys actually stole them, wouldn't it just be easy
> as pie for Nephi and Moroni to zap the bad guys
> down and get their precious plates back? Were
> both Moroni and Nephi on vacation and they
> couldn't keep the plates in the angelic vault
> where they usually had them?
>
> Then there were other times where they were
> supposedly in a box or under a cloth.
>
> The whole thing is such an obvious bullshit story
> that it is truly painful at times to see adult
> Mormons going along with it.
>
> I've heard better bullshit stories from drunken
> ignoramuses in bars. At least the drunken
> ignoramuses could catch themselves in the middle
> of saying something that contradicted what they
> had said just a few minutes earlier.
>
> I mean when I was younger I tried really hard to
> believe because I love my family and I respect my
> TBM parents for so many reasons. But by the time I
> got into my early twenties, after having served a
> mission, it was just so obvious that it was a
> bullshit story made up by a low-budget bullshit
> artist named Joe Smith. I couldn't even try to
> believe anymore and I couldn't pretend.
>
> It's like trying to believe in Santa Claus to make
> your parents and friends happy. But it's even
> worse. In this story, there are real guys in
> business suits who try to tell you that Santa
> Claus want you to pay TO THEM 10% of your income.
> And then it's even worse than worse when you find
> out that the guy who made up the original bullshit
> story made up similar bullshit stories so that he
> could get into the panties of underaged girls and
> married women.
>
> I love my TBM friends and family members, but for
> the life of me I just don't see how they continue
> believing these absurd bullshit stories. But, as
> Hinckley might say, that's the miracle of it. It
> could be that this is the miracle that keeps
> Mormons going back for more. They tell
> themselves: "I can't believe that I actually
> believe this @#$%&! There's no reason for
> believing this @#$%&! It's the craziest @#$%& I
> ever heard! It's a miracle that I believe this
> @#$%&. That means it's holy @#$%& and you have to
> believe holy @#$%&. And that's why I believe..."
>
> BTW, pardon my French here. I don't usually like
> to use the bullshit word without deleting a vowel
> or something. But there really doesn't seem to be
> an adequate substitute adjective for describing
> the ridiculous lies made up by Joe Smith and his
> enablers.


Actually, if I were to pardon your French, you would have to have written it as "boolsheet"

:)

pas besoin de me remercier