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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 16, 2021 05:06PM

This is about religion vs. science, not politics,

Bill Maher, who wrote and produced the movie, "Religulous" made the point last week on his HBO show, "Realtime",

"The events of January 6th were a faith-based initiative, and Trumpism is a Christian nationalist movement. Magical religious thinking is a virus, and QAnon is just its current mutation. #Religulous"

https://twitter.com/billmaher/status/1357915846731997185

At the bottom of that thread somebody (forget who) asked, "So you don't rely upon magical thinking?"

Magical (or superstitious) thinking is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects.

I gave up, as much as possible, magical thinking on 9-11, when it became completely obvious to me that we were on our own. That there was no Savior who was going to come save us from ourselves, despite the fervent prayers of all those victims. No matter how hard we pray, there's not going to be a savior. And if we are going to save ourselves, from ourselves, it's up to us. We have to save ourselves, individually and collectively. It's not up to some outside force, the government or a church. It's up to me individually to be the change I want to see in the world and live today like it could be my last day on Earth, because it very well could be.
There's nothing magical or superstitious about that.

While I try to avoid superstitions and magical thinking we all have to rely upon some kind of 'magical thinking' when there's no other explanation. Like for instance, "Dark Energy/matter" which makes up 95% of the universe when you add up all the mass, there should be 95% more of it in order to move our galaxy 1.4 Million mph South, toward the Great Attractor, along with all our neighboring galaxies and all the galaxies in our 'galactic neighborhood' Laneakea. We can't figure out where that missing mass went, or why we can't see it, but it must exist, according to the current model, so we just made up a name for it, "Dark Matter" since we can't see it. And then we took a look at how, despite the fact the galaxies are converging on the same point in space, they're simultaneously expanding apart at an increasingly high rate of speed. In order to do that there would need to be a lot more radiation than there is in the universe, about 95% more, so, "Dark Energy" which is even more mysterious than dark matter, which is a complete mystery.
So given the current state of our collective knowledge, we know about less than 5% of the universe. The other 95% is a complete mystery and will probably remain a complete mystery for the rest of my life and the rest of human existence, potentially.
For the other 95%, we just have to rely upon the 95% fudge factor to explain what the hell happened to all the mass/energy in the world.
It's kind of like missing socks.
Where the hell do they all go?
Black hole I guess!

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Posted by: iceman9090 ( )
Date: February 16, 2021 07:42PM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

“"The events of January 6th were a faith-based initiative, and Trumpism is a Christian nationalist movement. Magical religious thinking is a virus, and QAnon is just its current mutation. #Religulous"”

==Yes, I noticed the massive amount of Jesus pictures and other iconography.
Perhaps the people are afraid. Perhaps they are anxious. Perhaps they are seeking a better tomorrow.
Perhaps Jesus reduces their stress levels.

“Magical (or superstitious) thinking is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects.”

==I guess you copied that from wikipedia but that is not the best line, IMO.
The best line is the example:
“Examples include the idea that personal thoughts can influence the external world without acting on them”

Or saying magical words such as abracadabra and expecting something fantastic to happen.
You can even find magical thinking in the tanakh, when the jewish god says “let there be light”.

and it keeps going
“Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.”
“Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.”
“Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.”
“Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.”
“Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.”
“Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.”

===========================
So, who is the jewish god talking to? The computer? His business partners?
Nah, the most likely explanation is that primitive humans were superstitious.




, or that objects must be causally connected if they resemble each other or came in contact with each other in the past.”

“we all have to rely upon some kind of 'magical thinking' when there's no other explanation. Like for instance, "Dark Energy/matter" which makes up 95% of the universe when you add up all the mass”

==That’s not magically thinking. It’s called detection.
A long time ago, approximately, 100 y ago, it was detected that atoms consisted mostly of empty space, that it had a positively charged very dense nucleus.
The proton was already discovered. Therefore, the nucleus was composed of protons.
So, the nucleus was made of protons but how did it stay together? Were some of the electrons involved in the binding?
A certain experiment involving accelerating neon atoms and pushing them using a magnetic field showed that there are 2 types of Neon atoms. There was something in neon that was quite massive.
Another experiment showed that when you bombard light nuclei, such as lithium, beryllium, boron with alpha particles, a neutrally charged radiation came off.
It was finally measured to have almost the same mass of the proton and this explained the Neon experiment.

About your comment, something has been measured, something has been detected, but it isn’t clear what it is yet. For now, it is being called dark matter.

“despite the fact the galaxies are converging on the same point in space, they're simultaneously expanding apart at an increasingly high rate of speed.“

==From what I understand, galaxy clusters are sort of together.
There are many such clusters and the distance between the clusters is enormous and it is increasing at a high rate.

~~~~iceman9090

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 19, 2021 05:08PM

> Magical (or superstitious) thinking
> is the belief that unrelated events
> are causally connected despite the
> absence of any plausible causal link
> between them, particularly as a result
> of supernatural effects.

> I gave up, as much as possible, magical
> thinking on 9-11


But you told us that you believe that Nature keeps a balance...

Who or what is in charge of that balance? Who is keeping track?

If it's just nature, where is the list kept so that Nature knows what action to take next to preserve/restore the balance?

I have no problem with people keeping some 'magical thinking' going on in our little brains. But without proof, why would any of us proselyte about it? And we do, oh man, do we ever!

Everybody knows something special that can't be proven! But we know it!!

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 19, 2021 06:18PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But you told us that you believe that Nature keeps
> a balance...
>
> Who or what is in charge of that balance? Who is
> keeping track?
>
> If it's just nature, where is the list kept so
> that Nature knows what action to take next to
> preserve/restore the balance?
>
> I have no problem with people keeping some
> 'magical thinking' going on in our little brains.
> But without proof, why would any of us proselyte
> about it? And we do, oh man, do we ever!
>
> Everybody knows something special that can't be
> proven! But we know it!!
We live in a super symmetrical universe, which is why E=mc^2 and m=E/c^2. We don’t really know what maintains the balance that exists, we just know it exists, and has over the past 13.8 billion years, otherwise we wouldn’t exist and neither would anything else for that matter.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 19, 2021 07:50PM

> We live in a super symmetrical
> universe, which is why E=mc^2
> and m=E/c^2.

Sure, why not? But what about the thousands of years of human existence before the equations were written? All those poor people left hung out to dry, not knowing this secret of existence. And even now, having been written for all to see, how many humans neither understand the equations nor give them and personal life credence? (Also, what about C²=E/M? Would that make a flash big enough to light the Universe?)


> We don’t really know what maintains
> the balance that exists, we just
> know it exists, and has over the
> past 13.8 billion years, otherwise
> we wouldn’t exist and neither would
> anything else for that matter.

Where's the math for this conjecture you offer? You say we don't really know, but then you imply that you do!

I suspect that if you see a brighter penny, you'll pick it up and drop E=M·C² in a heartbeat. You're only championing it right now because it fits and you think it looks good on you. (It does! All the in-group are wearing it.)

How about the theory that each and every one of us has 11 strings attached to various parts of our body and brain, and a Master Marionetter is yanking on all the strings in a frenzy.

You know, "Mongo only pawn in game of life."

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 19, 2021 07:57PM

How about c equals the square root of E/M?

Did you forget about that one big guy, you with your highfalutin "A" in Algebra II?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2021 11:58PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 19, 2021 08:05PM

Look, Gladys, if C² doesn't know what it equals, that is neither my fault nor my algebra II teacher's fault! I'm serious about that!

Because that was F'ing 60 YEARS AGO!! Things have likely changed at some revelatory point in modern living!!! And we landed on the moon! I'm sure the changes occurred before you were even born...

But fine, I'll accept the mantle of disgrace so that you can preen, ya ........ ...... ... ......., ...-.... ........ .... ............ ...ch!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 19, 2021 08:16PM

It's a closely guarded scientific secret that the speed of light was much slower when you were in short pants. Then God moved earth from its position near Kolob and light speeded up, human life spans decreased dramatically, and the dinosaurs died.

In that order.

I hope you got photos.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: February 20, 2021 07:34AM

Proof is a lot to ask of a cat, especially when they aren’t inclined to give any. I would expect cats to be more interested in string theory.

Maybe he’s conflating magical thinking with wishful thinking. You can prove magic is real. The devil is in the details, but there’s a difference. We also don’t burn witches nor, lucky for us, heretics.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 19, 2021 06:20PM

See what happens to a thread when the moderators remove all of Kori's posts containing scatological insults?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2021 07:57PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: February 20, 2021 09:56AM

I'm holding out until Penn Gillette replies.

But I will say, Christianity is not a religion but an excuse. That is a no brainer.

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Posted by: G. Salviati ( )
Date: February 20, 2021 10:04AM

"Magical (or superstitious) thinking is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects."

Not quite. Scientists believe in "non-locality" at the quantum level "despite the absence of any plausible (Newtonian) causal link between them," but nonetheless do not subscribe to "supernatural effects." The difference between "magical" thinking and scientific thinking is the nature of the causal agent itself; science insists upon a physical, natural cause, whereas "magical' thinking believes in "supernatural" or non-physical causes.
_____________________________________

"While I try to avoid superstitions and magical thinking we all have to rely upon some kind of 'magical thinking' when there's no other explanation."

No. When there is no apparent physical, causal explanation, scientists do not turn to the supernatural; they attempt to (1) pigeonhole the phenomenon into existing theories (often quite awkwardly); (2) expand their theories to accommodate the new phenomenon; or (3) just wait and see what develops as science expands its understanding.
__________________________________________

"Like for instance, "Dark Energy/matter" . . . We can't figure out where that missing mass went, or why we can't see it, but it must exist, according to the current model, so we just made up a name for it, "Dark Matter" since we can't see it."

Identifying an unknown quantity, or phenomenon, by assigning a concept to it is not equivalent to engaging in magical thinking, or even metaphysics. The concept is merely a place-holder pending further knowledge and understanding.
_________________________________________

"And then we took a look at how, despite the fact the galaxies are converging on the same point in space, they're simultaneously expanding apart at an increasingly high rate of speed. In order to do that there would need to be a lot more radiation than there is in the universe, about 95% more, so, "Dark Energy" which is even more mysterious than dark matter, which is a complete mystery."

Again, identifying a scientific mystery, and assigning a concept to that mystery is not engaging in magical thinking. All proposed explanations in science as to the nature of dark matter and dark energy are "materialist," i.e. are based upon either existing physical theories, or the expansion of such theories. Nothing "supernatural" is invoked, nor need be invoked. Those people who *do* invoke *supernatural* or religious explanations may ultimately be correct, but they are not doing science.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 03:25AM

Going for #7

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 03:29AM

"Sometimes I worry about Uncle Jesus. Like Bart Simpson he's been stuck in the third grade for a very long time."

--Judic West, sixth grade class president, Rio Vista Elementary School, Disneyland North, CA

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