What was it that made you say to yourself, "That's it. I'm done!"

For me, it was sitting in a Gospel Doctrine class my cousin was teaching about the Book of Mormon. He wondered aloud why the whole world didn't consider the Book of Mormon the word of God. Then the Stake High Councilman sitting right in front of me spoke up in defense of the Book of Mormon, saying he wondered when its promise would be fulfilled and the Lamanites would accept Mormonism and be turned white and delightsome again.
I looked around the room to see if anybody else was as shocked and offended by this statement as I was and apparently nobody else in the room was at all bothered that this was asked in the 21st Century, long after the racist myths Mormonism was based upon had been debunked by the DNA evidence that proved there was no trace of Semitic DNA in any Native American populations and long after the leaders of the church had changed that obviously white supremacist word from 'white' to 'pure' to make it sound less white supremacist. I just shook my head, realizing I was no longer among my tribe and walked out and vowed never to come back again.
I went to gather up my kids to leave for the last time. As I looked through the window of the primary class, I saw my beautiful Native American daughter singing with the rest of the little kids, "Book of MORmON Stories" and pantomiming "Lamanites" by putting two fingers up over the back of her head.

SC, are you native? I need to learn more about others in this group. I’ve been so self-absorbed for the last decade.

The moment that broke my desire to fight for my testimony was when I sat through the baby blessing of my first niece. I was in the audience instead of the stand. I’m the oldest. Everyone always thought I’d have the first grand babies for mom and dad. But I was in the audience, inwardly tormenting myself for my unworthiness in all the usual ways. And something inside me just said, no, enough, no more. I stopped besting myself up, and instead my mind turned toward the evidence I had accumulated in my mind over the years that this organization was not even true, that it had lied to me and I had taken their abuse for nothing. The only thing keeping me in at that point was family expectation and fear of gossip, but I was getting a foretaste of what my future was going to be like if I didn’t marry a Mormon woman and start popping out babies, and I decided I would go the other way instead. Instead of being a sad black sheep that no one respects, I would stand my ground and justify why I had doubts about this culture or just leave.

That corpus of knowledge was a long time accumulating, and had I not gotten it first, I never could have defied Mormon God in my heart, and even then it took a leap of unfaith. That was when I became confident that the Holy Ghost wasn’t real and that I was only dealing with my own feelings which I had to define for myself and not let others define for me. I knew I’d be hated for this, but also the alternative was equally unappealing. I guess any chance I had to be my parents’ favorite kid had to die first before I came to my senses and realized what a dependent adult baby I was being. That was my event if I had to pick one. Although I’m sad I didn’t leave sooner now that it’s over. I had opportunities to figure it out, but I guess I wasn’t emotionally ready to fully think through the realizations I was confronted with.

Most everyone in my little social circle is lily white and extremely religious. So am I. Racism bothered me, but it bothered me in an abstract way. I never really saw what the church’s teachings did to nonwhite people until my mission. One of my companions and I were trying to reactivate a Sioux family, and it dawned on me how different that experience is. The father had all kinds of health problems, and coming to church was painful. I did all I could to make him feel more welcome. When he called himself a dirty Lamanite, I said he was one of the Lamanites that had blossomed as the rose. I meant well. I didn’t know any better. He shouldn’t even have to think that his ancestors were anything like what he reads about in that accursed book of white supremacist fiction. I tried to deny that the book was racist, but it is. But also, I had no other scaffolding upon which to put my worldview at the time, so even if someone had carefully laid out everything I needed to know to destroy it, I couldn’t have processed it at the time with the tools I had. My walls would have gone up in self-defense.

I had a similar response to yours when my dad had a genuine reaction to the published pictures of the seerstone. He needed a moment, and then gathered himself (cuz he’d realized the church had had this the whole time and just told another narrative for convenience) and said, “well, the church is still true.” And the next time I asked him about it, it sounded like he’d completely reconciled it and forgotten about it. Or maybe he was just refusing to give me, who he now knew was an apostate, something to go on. I wondered why it didn’t affect Mormons more than it did. The church had lied to us and admitted as much. It was plain as day. But nothing happened. It just went under the rug.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2021 02:46PM by Cold-Dodger.

Cold-Dodger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SC, are you native? I need to learn more about
> others in this group. I’ve been so self-absorbed
> for the last decade.

I’m part Native American and my kids Mother is also.

There’s no convincing people with facts, when they were not converted by facts in the first place. Or IOW, “No amount of evidence is enough to convince an idiot of anything.” Mark Twain



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2021 04:43PM by schrodingerscat.

how much OPie earns ~


from its constant click-bait threds ~


it is as follows ~


~\|||/~
~(0o)
~/'o'\~


Tier 1 ~ $5.50 per 1000 unique views

Tier 2 ~ $1.30 per 1000 unique views

Tier 3 ~ $0.25 per 1000 unique views

Tier 4 ~ $0.12 per 1000 unique views

~\|||/~
~(0o)
~/'o'\~


the more exmos click ~



the more scrode licking scat earns ~



better than street bums ~



~\|||/~
~(0o)
~/'o'\~

The intense and nonsensical Biblical Literalism required by the revealed scripture of Joseph Smith.

When I understood that my reliance on metaphorical scripture as necessitated by actual evidence and history was incompatible with the foundational claims of Mormonism, I was done.

I always grew up with the "church is perfect, but the members are not" excuse for terrible experiences. I always waited for some heavenly being to remove the assholes, but that never happened.

My exit story is fairly well known. I was told to go count my blessings after my house partially burned and was condemned.

Years later I found out that the church had executed discipline on me after getting into an altercation with local missionaries who locked their bikes to my fence. I never moved or changed my phone # but I found out that I had been disfellowshipped w/o my knowledge to defend my character during a disciplinary council.

MMM, starting the day I heard on NPR that Juanita died, August 26, 1989

Since she wrote her book, ChurchCo has denied & danced around responsibility - accountability for the deaths of about 101 human beings, down the the age of 5 or 6, then, they charged the relatives Room & Board when they came to UT to retrieve their kin.

Stole & distributed a large heard of cattle & their wagons & furnishings; these weren't 'poor folks' like Okies heading to California bc of the dust storm & famine, they were well-to-do people.

The things that pushed me past the point of return weren’t exclusive to Mormonism. The Judeo-Christian concept of God, the reality of (or need for) a savior, plus the notion of eternal reward or punishment for finite actions (or inactions) became unacceptable to my my conscience.

CrispingPin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the notion of eternal reward or punishment for finite actions (or inactions)

That's an insightful way of putting it.

Being told that the script, the symbolism, the signs and tokens, and the purported purpose of the temple ceremony were thought up by ghawd and handed down to the servant of ghawd, Joju.

I couldn't respect a ghawd who obviously smoked more dope than Cheech Marin and yet made less sense. So when ghawd out-"Dave's not here"'d Cheech & Chong, I lost my testimony in the testimonies of others.

You honor, may it please the court, but up to that point, I was simply following orders.

I was "offended." After returning from a difficult mission that caused a lot of mental distress, I felt less connected to "the church." I continued to attend meetings for about 10 years but I felt less attached and more inclined to ask questions. An incident with a member made me realize I was giving a lot to an organization that wasn't giving back, and that if you were a single female, you were nothing.

I think that people who leave because they are "offended" have already lost their testimony but are not ready to admit to themselves that "the church" is not true. If someone "offends" them they use that as an excuse to leave. It's much easier than acknowledging the church is false.

A few years after I stopped attending church I was directed to RFM by my TBM friend. I was riveted to the discussions. I don't like reading anti Mormon literature but reading about experiences of other exmos was very relatable and helped me to realize that I had been a member of a phony bolony cult.

Like the rest of you I wish I'd left sooner, like before attending church schools and going on a mission. Those years could have been so much better.

Being told by my dad when I was about 7 years old that I was a mormon, explaining the origins of mormonism to me, and telling me that a mormon life was going to be the life I would live.

And at that age I already knew that for mormons, life was all mormonism and I knew that wasn't for me.

I had doubts about the BoM as a teenager, but I put them on the shelf. The BoA papyri were returned to LDS Inc just as I went on my mission. I thought aha, here is something that is falsifiable and would constitute proof that JS was a prophet.

After I returned home, I read the articles Hugh Nibley had written about the papyri while I was gone. It was clear to me that he was just tap-dancing, and the papyri had nothing to do with the contents of the LDS BoA. As soon as I got my degree and escaped BYU, I was out.

First/straw Final/ straw---Miracle of Forgiveness: Crime Against Nature.

By that time I found church unbearably boring, insincere, and competitive, but I couldn't name a single instance that ever made me doubt even for a second before reading MoF. The second I read that chapter I knew. SWK was as clueless as he was poisonous and if he was prophet the whole thing was a sham.

Was all over in 20 minutes. I felt pure relief==thrilled to figure it out. I have never felt so light. Nothing left to do but lay low until graduation.


Only reason I happen to read it was that a friend said to read it, that it would really help me. Boy did it. Worked the opposite on him though.

So you found a prophet's words liberating?

Polygamy.

Polygamy baited me in to read the apologetics website, but it was Polyandry that done split that camel to the bone!

Just noticed a consistent correlation between going to services, and feeling much less well after. Like ingesting a toxin.
So decided on an experiment: enforced abstinence for one year, then re-examine.

Didn't need to wait a year.

Teaching in CES full time for nearly three decades became unbearably oppressive.

Listing the outright, outrageous lies and prevarications found in the curriculum, and crazy CES conferences and meetings.

I tired of the endless inquisitions by CES and stake leaders for spreading "disease germs" - truth to you and me.

I remember hearing your story on the Ex-Mormon Foundation channel. I also read it on Google. I joined the LDS church in 1974. Many of us Boomers were attracted to the Mormons in the 70's, which was a time of great religious excitement for the young.

I joined in 1970 too! Seemed like such a smart thing to do back then.

Well, Ken, you have grown smarter in the last 50 years. I guess there's hope for me as well!

LW I don't think I'll ever be as smart as you. I marvel at the way you cut through the crap that some folks put on the board. I admire you for that. Please keep it up.

I find that I don't remain patient and carefully look back at the sources that I know are in my "library."

Ken, I have long been a fan of yours. You acted on the basis of logic and integrity many years before I even realized it was possible.

That you respect my often futile efforts is deeply gratifying.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2021 11:29PM by Lot's Wife.

Commen sense.

Never really had a shelf but after dad died one of his fellow high priests made me his project until I resigned and demanded to be left alone.

DNA, Archaeology, Linguistics. My husband is Native American. He actually looks more like the Japanese than like the Middle-Easterners. We used to think: "Oh, they are PART Hebrew. The rest is Asian." Then I discovered the "99.6%" figure from that Australian Geneticist (can't remember his name--I used to follow his blog to learn more about genetics).

Every now and then, some Mormon YouTuber will pop up claiming that there are Hebrew elements in the Mayan language. I check with the real Linguists, and they say that Mayan has no Hebrew or Egyptian at all. Neither does any other Native American language. The same thing happens with Archaeology.

Josephina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DNA, Archaeology, Linguistics. My husband is
> Native American. He actually looks more like the
> Japanese than like the Middle-Easterners. We used
> to think: "Oh, they are PART Hebrew. The rest is
> Asian." Then I discovered the "99.6%" figure from
> that Australian Geneticist (can't remember his
> name--I used to follow his blog to learn more
> about genetics).

Simon Southerton, who got excommunicated for publishing his genetic research, right after a Mormon friend of mine, Thomas Murphy, was threatened with excommunication for publishing his Doctoral Thesis on the racial claims of Mormonism and the DNA evidence that disproved them. He was able to avoid getting excommunicated, because of protests. It's insane that the CULT still, in the 21st Century, treats scholars like the Catholic Church treated scientists in the Dark Ages.

> Every now and then, some Mormon YouTuber will pop
> up claiming that there are Hebrew elements in the
> Mayan language. I check with the real Linguists,
> and they say that Mayan has no Hebrew or Egyptian
> at all. Neither does any other Native American
> language. The same thing happens with Archaeology.

Nothing is too much of a stretch for MORmON YouTubers.

I had been pondering issues for some time but it was a PH meeting during Ward Conference that really set the ball rolling. Foolishly I expected a good word but the meeting dissolved into a castigation about numbers. The Stake President: "Stand up all those who have not attended the temple this month" More than two thirds of the men stood and remained standing while the SP berated them on their lack of commitment, faith, and other perceived shortcomings. Finally he had them sit and asked all those who had attended the temple that month to stand. I expected praise but instead: " No place for you to feel pleased with yourself. If you have been once you can go twice."

My question that day was why do we willingly give these people this kind of manipulative control over our lives...and soon, I didn't.

kentish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had been pondering issues for some time but it
> was a PH meeting during Ward Conference that
> really set the ball rolling. Foolishly I expected
> a good word but the meeting dissolved into a
> castigation about numbers. The Stake President:
> "Stand up all those who have not attended the
> temple this month" More than two thirds of the
> men stood and remained standing while the SP
> berated them on their lack of commitment, faith,
> and other perceived shortcomings. Finally he had
> them sit and asked all those who had attended the
> temple that month to stand. I expected praise but
> instead: " No place for you to feel pleased with
> yourself. If you have been once you can go twice."
>
>
> My question that day was why do we willingly give
> these people this kind of manipulative control
> over our lives...and soon, I didn't.

I am glad that I wasn't the only one who experienced meetings like this!

When my wife had lung cancer and the bishop laid his hands on here head and said "It's OK for you to die now. Which thing she promptly did.
NO HEALING POWER AT ALL!!!PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When my wife had lung cancer and the bishop laid
> his hands on here head and said "It's OK for you
> to die now. Which thing she promptly did.
> NO HEALING POWER AT ALL!!!PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD


Sorry you lost your wife to cancer and had to endure all of that. The good news is that it was the catalyst for you to escape the mental slavery you were born into.
I lost my partner to breast cancer 7 years ago. Even though it was tough and I miss her, at least she knew it was coming and had a year to live her best life and she really did achieve things in that last year that few of us ever will. We should all be so lucky to live our lives the way she lived her last year, lovingly, courageously and beautifully.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2021 12:15PM by schrodingerscat.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> thedesertrat1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > When my wife had lung cancer and the bishop
> laid
> > his hands on here head and said "It's OK for
> you
> > to die now. Which thing she promptly did.
> > NO HEALING POWER AT ALL!!!PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD
>
>
> Sorry you lost your wife to cancer and had to
> endure all of that. The good news is that it was
> the catalyst for you to escape the mental slavery
> you were born into.
> I lost my partner to breast cancer 7 years ago.
> Even though it was tough and I miss her, at least
> she knew it was coming and had a year to live her
> best life and she really did achieve things in
> that last year that few of us ever will. We should
> all be so lucky to live our lives the way she
> lived her last year, lovingly, courageously and
> beautifully.

We found out she had cancer and three weeks later she was gone

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
>
> We found out she had cancer and three weeks later
> she was gone

Tragic. I had a friend who I lived with who went into the Dr. for the first time in 35 years to check a lump in his stomach on a Friday. They took a biopsy and were going to get back to him with the results on Monday. I came home on Sunday night and he was in the bathroom off the kitchen, with the door closed. I asked how he was and he said, "Fine". On Monday I looked up from cooking dinner and there he was in the bathroom, with the door open, sitting on the toilet, dead.

What were the results of the biopsy?

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What were the results of the biopsy?

I never found out, but I assumed terminal cancer.

Yeah...

Too bad it wasn't the other kind of cancer.

No less than four different versions of the First Vision.
If the FOUNDATIONAL MIRACULOUS EVENT was fabricated, it only stands to reason that whatever followed is also complete BULLSH*T.

oxymormon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No less than four different versions of the First
> Vision.
> If the FOUNDATIONAL MIRACULOUS EVENT was
> fabricated, it only stands to reason that whatever
> followed is also complete BULLSH*T.

I was sitting in a General Priesthood Session, surrounded by Penisholders in suits, with my young Son sawing logs on my shoulder, when Gordon B. Hinkley said, "It all comes down to the First Vision. Either it happened the way Joseph Smith said it did or it didn't. If it did happen the way he said it did, then it's the greatest news since the Atonement. If it didn't happen the way he said it did, then it's the greatest fraud ever foisted upon mankind."
I said, "It's a fraud." out loud. It was like I couldn't help it. I had to say it. My conscience wouldn't allow me to remain silent any longer. I went home and told my wife I could no longer in good conscience pretend, for the sake of our children, that it was true, when it was a fraud.
It probably isn't the greatest fraud ever foisted upon mankind, I mean, Naziism claimed a lot more victims as did Stalinism and Maoism, so it doesn't even come close, but it's still a huge fraud.
When I resigned my Bishop wanted to come and interview me to find out why I resigned. I told him why and he used the same line on me, "Well it all boils down to the first vision. It either happened the way Joseph Smith said it did or it didn't.

I said, "Which version?"

He said, "Well, they're all essentially the same."

I said, "No, they're not. That's the problem. The original version, the only one written in his hand, only mentions "The Lord" singular, no mention of God and Jesus. It wasn't until the 4th Version, written 18 years after the fact, under great duress, that he bothered mentioning God and Jesus."

He said, "Well, I didn't come here to get into a contentious argument over doctrine."

I said, "I'm not arguing, just stating the facts of the matter. The fact is, you came over here to see if you could convince me to change my mind, right?"

He said, "No, I just wanted to understand why you left."

I said, "I told you why and you didn't like my answer. But I'll tell you what, there's one part of Mormonism I believe in more than you apparently."

"What's that?"

"The 11th Article of Faith, "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” If you really believed that you wouldn't be here right now in my house, trying to convince me that I'm wrong and you're right. I'll tell you what, you don't come to my house trying to convince me or my family that I'm wrong and I won't show up to your house and try to convince you or your family that you're wrong, ok?"

He agreed and we parted ways.

Buckeyballs are what got me out of the church.

I remember thinking, "wow, I've wasted decades on Mormon magic and all this time buckeyballs were the one true magic."

I've never looked back.

> I've never looked back.

Sad, because the trail of destruction is worth the look!


Don't worry, those who could pass you, have. Those who couldn't, aren't gaining on you.


When you do, wave to the cop who is diverting traffic around you.


etc., & etc.

How am I supposed to believe that? You are the most famous looker backer in all of western civilization.

Just living in the past like Jethro Tull.

;-)




ETA: As Faulkner wrote, "The past is never dead. It's not even past."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2021 02:54PM by Lot's Wife.

I believe there is nothing wrong in looking at the past. It is where our memories are and I think it informs our present.

Precisely.

The present is the result of the past, and anyone who forgets the past is unable to comprehend the present let alone the future.

I am therefore honored that BoJ considers me an "[in]famous looker backer."

Not to mention that Lot's Wife is the ultimate looker back.

You see? It's those little details that bespeak a fine British education!

I wish.

No, it's nice to know that someone else would describe us all as hunkerers down!

The death oaths and other rituals i did not know about. I was just like ok this is ridiculous.

Adam the Warrior Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The death oaths and other rituals i did not know
> about. I was just like ok this is ridiculous.


I remember thinking the same thing the first time I went to the temple, but then I looked to the right, and there was my dentist standing next to me, pantomiming slitting his throat. And I looked to the left and there was an Aeronautical Engineer pantomiming slitting his stomach and I thought to myself, well, if these respectable people are all doing it, it can't be THAT weird!
And that's the point.
"The truth is common property. You can't distinguish your group by doing things that are rational, and believing things that are true. If you want to set yourself apart from other people, you have to do things that are arbitrary, and believe things that are false. And after having spent their whole lives doing things that are arbitrary and believing things that are false, and being regarded as odd by "outsiders" on that account, the cognitive dissonance pushing children to regard themselves as Xes must be enormous. If they aren't an X, why are they attached to all these arbitrary beliefs and customs? If they aren't an X, why do all the non-Xes call them one?

This form of lie is not without its uses. You can use it to carry a payload of beneficial beliefs, and they will also become part of the child's identity. You can tell the child that in addition to never wearing the color yellow, believing the world was created by a giant rabbit, and always snapping their fingers before eating fish, Xes are also particularly honest and industrious. Then X children will grow up feeling it's part of their identity to be honest and industrious.

This probably accounts for a lot of the spread of modern religions, and explains why their doctrines are a combination of the useful and the bizarre. The bizarre half is what makes the religion stick, and the useful half is the payload." Paul Graham, Lies We Tell Our Kids
http://www.paulgraham.com/lies.html

I was already about 97% gone when they came out with the notion that the children of gay parents cannot be baptized.

I said, "Enough. I'm outta here." I wrote my resignation letter and that was the end of it. Fifteen years ago, give or take a few. I still hang around RfM just because I love the community.

Securely in double digits now.

Ayahuasca plant medicine. Best thing that ever happened to me.

It turned out that I really liked beer, for one thing. That broke my shelf.

My older brothers were inactive and I adored them.
I read "The Godmakers" and the shelf fell...

I don't know that I ever had a solid shelf to begin with. But I do remember the final tether to be cut. My wife looked at me one Sunday morning and asked why I didn't just quit going to church, since it obviously made me angry and miserable. It was the "permission" I needed to walk away for good.

It sounds like you married well.

Hi, I'm Elder . . . .