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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: March 02, 2021 12:02PM

Remember our outrage whenever LDSinc. gaslights us, its members and the world over when it tries to downplay its racism, trying their best to erase evidence of it from their culture, theology, texts, etc.?

Remember under POTUS43 our outrage watching the Taliban deface an ancient Buddhist sculpture carved into a mountain? —They found the sculpture offensive; we found their defacement, their “cancelling”, offensive. We knew then that there was no bottom to that kind of behaviour, and we preened over our cultural superiority, our Western values.

Like the toppling of statues in the West today, twenty or so years later, I’m guessing many now shrug off or even approve of the ‘self-cancelling’ of a part of Dr. Seuss:

CBC Headline: 6 Dr. Seuss books will no longer be published due to racist imagery:

“Six Dr. Seuss books — including And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street and If I Ran the Zoo — will stop being published because of racist and insensitive imagery, the business that preserves and protects the author's legacy said Tuesday. ‘These books portray people in ways that are hurtful and wrong,’ Dr. Seuss Enterprises told The Associated Press in a statement that coincided with the late author and illustrator's birthday.”

...

"’Dr. Seuss Enterprises listened and took feedback from our audiences including teachers, academics and specialists in the field as part of our review process. We then worked with a panel of experts, including educators, to review our catalogue of titles,’ it said.”

https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/dr-seuss-books-publication-racist-images-1.5933033

There is no bottom to this kind of behaviour. There is no principle to halt this slide. Everything in principle is on this slope.


What’s worse, is this kind of behaviour does nothing to correct actual racism in people. It does nothing to correct this kind of belief and behaviour, for example:

In 1977, POTUS46 desired to pass an anti-busing bill, which some feared was unconstitutional and, essentially, “heaves a brick in the window of school integration.”* Arguing for his bill, POTUS46 infamously said, “Unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a jungle, the jungle being a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point. We have got to make some move on this.” Whatever his current beliefs, racism was part of the belief and behaviour of POTUS46 in 1977.

*Full context: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112104078842&view=1up&seq=256

Is there Science, even of the softest kind, to suggest that removing racist imagery from our past artistic achievement will create less racist beliefs and behaviours in people today? What is the theory here, may we ask? On what is the theory based?

(If this is how we’d like to proceed, then please, put JaJa Binks on the list, at the least.)

Further, if erasing past racist imagery makes people today less racist, may we say erasing past sexist imagery will make people today less sexist? For example, will doing away with Victorian literature and American film noir, say, make us today less sexist?

I know that that isn’t the actual goal. I’m exercising intellectual charity. The goal seems to be nothing more than removing that which is upsetting to some people’s feelings. But there is no bottom to what might be found upsetting to some, especially when upsetting feelings is sometimes precisely what artists are trying to do. I think MORE Mormons should see African American images of Black Jesus, not less, no matter how upsetting to their feelings such images may be.

Human

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: March 02, 2021 12:10PM

On this theme, another question I posed on RfM:

Is Gill Sans Evil:

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2289946,2289946#msg-2289946

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Posted by: Humberto ( )
Date: March 02, 2021 01:19PM

You're confusing a desire for results with the desire to merely make a statement.

Sometimes people say what they want to say in the moment, results and ramifications notwithstanding.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: March 02, 2021 01:50PM

Why has taking offense been turned from a vice into a virtue? What does it say about our institutions, that they made it a thing?

I mean, if it has turned us against each other and divided the nation such that meaningful communication is shut down, I wouldn’t call that progress. But then the backlash from it would be progress.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 02, 2021 02:18PM

So now a business decision by a company is "cancel culture?" That raises a few issues.

1) What is the standard by which a publication becomes so important that its publishers must morally continue to produce and sell it irrespective of commercial considerations?

2) What about books, and the absence of books, that reflect the cancellations of previous generations? Is there a point at which yesterday's perversion of history or contemporary reality becomes sacrosanct such that the manifestations of that cancellation must be maintained indefinitely?

3) Has someone made it impossible for you to view the instant books on the web? Did someone round up the books and burn them, Nazi style, so that you can't get them at a used book store? My point is that a business decision to stop selling a few minor books in order to maintain its reputation and earning capacity does not meet any historical definition of censorship.

The bottom line is that you could be accused of selective victimhood. There is no censorship in the Seuss episode. No company is obligated to continue manufacturing and selling a product that it no longer wants to purvey. And no one is preventing you from reading those books.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 02, 2021 03:08PM

The news program I watched didn't describe or show the nature of the now-offensive material. I found a brief outline on Twitter of one of the offending portrayals: A Chinese man eating rice with chopsticks.

I had to think about that one for a few minutes. Short of seeing the image itself I can't see outright offence - perhaps more of a stereotype.

I agree that private companies should be free to make their own business decisions. As to the larger issues: (1) whether this stereotype is racist/whether it was meant to be (and yes, I believe there is a difference); and (2) whether it's necessary to call it out and pronounce it racist now, in a different generation - I am uncertain. I'll have to mull it over. I appreciate those with incisive minds laying out the case for and against.

In my own personal experience with a similar issue: When we were young kids my mom gave my sister and I gollywogs (dolls) as Christmas presents. They were from England, where we were born, and we loved them. Found out as an adult that they are considered racist. Big shock to me. And sorrow that I hadn't realized and would not have meant any offence. An English friend recently gave me a small golly as a gift and I was quite shocked that she had NO CLUE they are now not in fashion. At all. As far as I know. She, in turn, was shocked when I said they are racist and she didn't really accept that.

As for me, I don't hold myself out as the arbiter of what is racist, or not. I think it's up to the people most involved to determine that. My part is to accept their stance on the matter. I appreciate the education.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2021 03:12PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 02, 2021 03:50PM

My problem is that those (invariably rightist) critics of "cancel culture" are among the worst offenders.

There is an objective reality out there. Humans will never get it right, but they can try--a process that requires revision. The presence of Confederate statues, for instance, represents the cancellation of African American history and in many instances Native American history. To claim, therefore, that removing those statues is "cancel culture" represents blatant hypocrisy.

In my view, it is possible to correct the record. The black experience is real and has been suppressed. There is nothing wrong, to say the least, in exploring and commemorating that experience. Jim Crow is also history and should not be suppressed. So how do we manage the statues? I say take them out of the public square and put them in museums of Southern history or Jim Crow America. The effect would be to preserve that material without giving it the official imprimatur that it presently enjoy in the public square, the halls of state power, etc.

But in no way should a private business be required to let the political sensitivities of modern "victims" override business considerations. Dr. Suess and his administrators have a brand and a reputation to manage and their doing so is not censorship.

And no, Jim Crow is not "correct." History is never "correct." It is a process of vision and revision, an effort aimed at getting closer to "truth." Pushing America's racist past (and present) to the side a little bit to make room for a more comprehensive and accurate description of the past is a good thing. And people who complain about the cancellation of their cancellation of others are just a tiny bit pathetic.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 02, 2021 04:37PM

Very. Well. Said. I wish I could have put it so logically and comprehensively.

As for Dr. Seuss, I remembered another example of what are now considered racist tropes in one of his books that will no longer be published by that company: "African men wearing only grass skirts". Yeah, that one is more obvious. My brow kind of furrowed at the "Chinese men eating rice with chopsticks" - uh, yeah some do. I guess you'd have to see it to get the point, maybe? Perhaps it's in the pictures (which, like others, used to be considered cute but now can come across as offensive, even if unintentional and a product of their time).

I understand that it can be challenging for many to keep up with changing perspectives. Sometimes you are completely unaware of an issue, often a thing feels like it's moving too fast, and at times it's so far outside your realm of existence you don't comprehend what it's all about. In my 98.9% white experience, the struggles of others were literally almost invisible. Into adulthood I made the classic error of assuming that everyone's experiences were like my own. That can make it impossible to see a less rosy point of view that other people have, with reason. However, as a teen I worked with people with disabilities and from young adulthood have worked in the medical field with people in low income communities and with many who live with addictions. Those interactions opened my eyes to the human struggles and I fully embrace the conviction that "there but for the grace go I", which I believe is a useful outlook even if one doesn't hold religious convictions.

Exposing oneself to the difficult life experiences that beset others is one way of coming to understand even just a little bit the obstacles, struggles and injustices that all too many fellow humans face, not of their own making. It is all too easy to judge and dismiss if you're fortunate enough to live in an ivory tower and you never leave it.

A little compassion can go a long way. So too a long, long fuse when it comes to the ivory tower dwellers taking offence at those justifiably crying "hey, see me?, hear me?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2021 04:38PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: anonyXmo ( )
Date: March 02, 2021 06:52PM

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> A little compassion can go a long way. So too a
> long, long fuse when it comes to the ivory tower
> dwellers taking offence at those justifiably
> crying "hey, see me?, hear me?"

Where's the compassion when they destroy people who don't follow the party line?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 12:10AM

Is this another of your assertions that we are to accept on faith?

If you want to be taken seriously, you'll need to come up with something to say.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 07:45AM


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Posted by: anonyXmo ( )
Date: March 02, 2021 06:51PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My problem is that those (invariably rightist)
> critics of "cancel culture" are among the worst
> offenders.

False

> There is an objective reality out there. Humans
> will never get it right, but they can try--a
> process that requires revision.

E.g. unlimited genders?

> The presence of
> Confederate statues, for instance, represents the
> cancellation of African American history and in
> many instances Native American history. To claim,
> therefore, that removing those statues is "cancel
> culture" represents blatant hypocrisy.

You're behind the news, they've moved on from confederate statues to others including Jefferson and Lincoln.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 02, 2021 06:59PM

anonyXmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lot's Wife Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My problem is that those (invariably rightist)
> > critics of "cancel culture" are among the worst
> > offenders.
>
> False

Would you like to provide some evidence or even an argument?


---------------
> > There is an objective reality out there.
> Humans
> > will never get it right, but they can try--a
> > process that requires revision.
>
> E.g. unlimited genders?

Non-sequitur.


----------------
> > The presence of
> > Confederate statues, for instance, represents
> the
> > cancellation of African American history and in
> > many instances Native American history. To
> claim,
> > therefore, that removing those statues is
> "cancel
> > culture" represents blatant hypocrisy.
>
> You're behind the news, they've moved on from
> confederate statues to others including Jefferson
> and Lincoln.

I was talking about the Confederacy. I feel no obligation to follow you to gender or other topics.

Feel free to start your own thread, though.

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Posted by: anonyXmo ( )
Date: March 02, 2021 10:28PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> Would you like to provide some evidence or even an
> argument?

Do your own research



> > > There is an objective reality out there.
> > Humans
> > > will never get it right, but they can try--a
> > > process that requires revision.
> >
> > E.g. unlimited genders?
>
> Non-sequitur.

Not at all, ties right in with the denial of science and reality from the left


> > You're behind the news, they've moved on from
> > confederate statues to others including
> Jefferson
> > and Lincoln.
>
> I was talking about the Confederacy. I feel no
> obligation to follow you to gender or other
> topics.

The original post didn't mention anything about confederate monuments specifically, it reads "the toppling of statues in the West," so your reply is off topic

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 12:07AM

anonyXmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> > Would you like to provide some evidence or even
> an
> > argument?
>
> Do your own research

That which can be asserted without evidence can be rejected without evidence.


--------------
> > > > There is an objective reality out there.
> > > Humans
> > > > will never get it right, but they can
> try--a
> > > > process that requires revision.
> > >
> > > E.g. unlimited genders?
> >
> > Non-sequitur.
>
> Not at all, ties right in with the denial of
> science and reality from the left

Nope. We were talking about Dr. Seuss, not about gender identity. I can see how you'd like to dive down that hole but I doubt many will follow you.


-------------
> > > You're behind the news, they've moved on from
> > > confederate statues to others including
> > Jefferson
> > > and Lincoln.
> >
> > I was talking about the Confederacy. I feel no
> > obligation to follow you to gender or other
> > topics.
>
> The original post didn't mention anything about
> confederate monuments specifically, it reads "the
> toppling of statues in the West," so your reply is
> off topic

I replied to your comment. If my reply is off topic, so, inevitably, was your comment.


----------------
Good luck with your schooling there, anonyXmo.

And what you hear from right-wing pols? Take my advice and don't recapitulate it on your science tests. Otherwise you may have to repeat the six grade yet again.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 12:23AM

Just for the fun of it, here's where anonyXmo got his notion that gender is binary and that deniers of that assertion are contravening known science.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/balancing-act-marjorie-taylor-greene-wants-us-to-e2-80-98trust-the-science-e2-80-99-on-transgender-rights-here-e2-80-99s-the-science/ar-BB1e6VGH

Marjorie Taylor Greene, who has a bachelor's degree in business management from the University of Georgia.

What's that you say? She has no background in science? I'm disappointed in you. Everyone knows that right-wingers have an innate understanding of genetics, biology, and human sexuality.

That's how they know climate change is a liberal plot and COVID is a hoax.

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Posted by: anonyXmo ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 12:27AM

Sex is overwhelmingly and normally binary in most species incl. hominids

Gender is just a word with social connotations that shift

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 01:33AM

anonyXmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sex is overwhelmingly and normally binary in most
> species incl. hominids

Not many biological phenomena are binary. Biology is the realm of EOD's Bell Curve; in this case a bimodal curve. But even in your simplistic world you have allowed for a minority of people who don't fit the two modes.

What is remarkable is that you don't grasp the implications of that. You need to do what Marjorie Taylor Greene espouses in word if not deed.


--------------
> Gender is just a word with social connotations
> that shift

Not at all. Buy yourself a dictionary; the larger OED if you want, since it shows the meanings of words over time.

But I'm kidding myself, aren't I. You have produced no evidence for your assertions, nor did you read the article I provided; and you aren't going to check any dictionaries.

Because, like a Mormon, you just believe.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 11:14AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Because, like a Mormon, you just believe.

Because it feels true. Moroni 10 something I think.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 02:34AM

>That's how they know climate change is a liberal plot and COVID is a hoax

Don't forget the Jewish space lasers.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 02:41AM

I love it when people think they can throw out factual assertions without facts--without even acknowledging that facts are relevant.

As Steve Hassan said in his latest book and speeches on cults, it is perfectly predictable that people would emerge from religious cults only then to fall into the Trump cult. For they haven't learned to think logically yet.

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Posted by: anonyXmo ( )
Date: March 02, 2021 06:55PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I say take them out of the public square
> and put them in museums of Southern history or Jim
> Crow America.

Museums are already overflowing w/inventory. Most of these items will never see display but be stuffed into crates (at best) and stashed away from sight in warehouses. That's erasure of history.

> But in no way should a private business be
> required to let the political sensitivities of
> modern "victims" override business considerations.

That's why there was no legitimate business reason to end publication of the titles they mentioned. If people don't buy them that's one thing but that's not why they canceled them all at once thus making them less available to anyone who wants them.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 02, 2021 07:04PM

anonyXmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lot's Wife Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I say take them out of the public square
> > and put them in museums of Southern history or
> Jim
> > Crow America.
>
> Museums are already overflowing w/inventory. Most
> of these items will never see display but be
> stuffed into crates (at best) and stashed away
> from sight in warehouses. That's erasure of
> history.

You again urge us to accept history as established now without any attempt to get it better. My answer to you is "no." Your cancellation of others' history is not acceptable.



---------------
> > But in no way should a private business be
> > required to let the political sensitivities of
> > modern "victims" override business
> considerations.
>
> That's why there was no legitimate business reason
> to end publication of the titles they mentioned.

How do you know that? Because from here it appears that you are making shit up.


--------------
> If people don't buy them that's one thing but
> that's not why they canceled them all at once thus
> making them less available to anyone who wants
> them.

Businesses get to make their own decisions and they are under no obligation to explain their rationale to you. Which again raises the question why you are so confident that they were not acting in their best commercial interests.

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Posted by: anonyXmo ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 04:09AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
------------------------------------------------>

> You again urge us to accept history as established
> now without any attempt to get it better. My
> answer to you is "no." Your cancellation of
> others' history is not acceptable.

I have said nothing about "others' history." I'm against cancellation in general which is why I'm against mobs toppling statues.


> How do you know that? Because from here it
> appears that you are making shit up.


It's in the company's press release. They "will stop being published because of racist and insensitive imagery, the business that preserves and protects the author's legacy said Tuesday." Not because of poor sales.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 04:37AM

anonyXmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lot's Wife Wrote:
> ------------------------------------------------>
>
> > You again urge us to accept history as
> established
> > now without any attempt to get it better. My
> > answer to you is "no." Your cancellation of
> > others' history is not acceptable.
>
> I have said nothing about "others' history." I'm
> against cancellation in general which is why I'm
> against mobs toppling statues.

No, you are not against cancellation. The US "cancelled" all sorts of history in the past, including that of Native Americans and African Americans. When liberals complain about that cancellation, you insist that the false history must remain in place.

If you were truly against cancellation, as you claim, you would insist that the true history be told and that distortions be removed. But you have no interest in that. So don't for an instant expect others to believe you care about facts.


-----------------
>
> It's in the company's press release. They "will
> stop being published because of racist and
> insensitive imagery, the business that preserves
> and protects the author's legacy said Tuesday."
> Not because of poor sales.

Note what else the company press release said:

"These books date from the '30s, '40s and '50s," Nel said. "But if you think for example of automobiles in the '50s, they didn't have seatbelts … Now all cars have seatbelts, because it's a really good idea, if you like driving and staying alive.

"So things change, and Random House is recognizing that maybe it would be a good idea if we didn't publish books that put damage into the world."

Do you still drive an Edsel, anonyXmo? Do you believe that the producers of that vehicle should be compelled to continue producing it lest they cancel the old ways of doing things?

Or are the only sacrosanct images that must be protected from cancellation the racial and ethnic falsehoods that people like you imposed on the South between 1865 and the 1960s?


---------------
We are left again with the prospect of a supposed "conservative" objecting to how a private-sector business chooses to conduct its business. That's funny. It shows again that you prefer a binary world to the real one, that your capitalist and other protestations melt in the sunlight of racial bigotry.

You lot wouldn't know a principle if it leapt up and bit you on the dongle.

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Posted by: anonyXmo ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 11:17PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-----------------------------------------------
> If you were truly against cancellation, as you
> claim, you would insist that the true history be
> told and that distortions be removed. But you
> have no interest in that.

No one's stopping anyone from putting up whatever statue or plaque or whatever it is they want, there's plenty of places to put them without having to tear down a a preexisting monument.


> Or are the only sacrosanct images that must be
> protected from cancellation the racial and ethnic
> falsehoods that people like you imposed on the
> South between 1865 and the 1960s?

People have a right to access information, you have no right not to be offended


> We are left again with the prospect of a supposed
> "conservative" objecting to how a private-sector
> business chooses to conduct its business.

I have no problem with private businesses doing whatever they want

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 11:34PM

anonyXmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> No one's stopping anyone from putting up whatever
> statue or plaque or whatever it is they want,
> there's plenty of places to put them without
> having to tear down a a preexisting monument.

Whoosh. The point is the governmental imprimatur. You would have us retain monuments to traitors; in fact, you probably want to erect edifices to honor the traitors who attacked Congress in January.

But that's neither here nor there. The point is that in a democracy, the people decide what monuments deserve public support. The balance of political opinion from right and left has changed, leaving just a few of you blowing in the wind. But rest assured that your opposition will detain the country in exact proportion to your the importance of your views.



----------------
> > Or are the only sacrosanct images that must be
> > protected from cancellation the racial and
> ethnic
> > falsehoods that people like you imposed on the
> > South between 1865 and the 1960s?
>
> People have a right to access information, you
> have no right not to be offended

Whoosh. No one is preventing you from garnering and imbibing whatever information you want. What you can't do is tell us that you care about historical truth. Well, you can tell us that if you want. But the fact remains that you defend cancel culture: you just don't like it when others do what you do.

And as for being offended, it is you who are doing that. The country moved beyond your parochialism years if not decades ago. I'm not whining over that: you are.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 02, 2021 04:36PM

Everybody wants to tell everybody else how to be.

The Sharks and the Jets represent eternal life for this planet.

Glueing feathers on your dog does not make it a crow.

Whatever you say will be used against you in a court of public opinion.

I really don't like this world.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 10:11AM

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everybody wants to tell everybody else how to be.

...

> I really don't like this world.


I don’t mind everybody telling everybody else how to be just as long as everybody gets to do the telling. It takes all kinds to make a world.

I can’t help but love this world, passionately. It’s a character flaw, I know. But I’ll always love Billie Holliday telling about Strange Fruit no matter how bitter the evil of such fruit hanging from the tree.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 10:17AM

Yes. No white washing history. Feel it instead. Hopefully it becomes a marker that we'e come a long way---if never long enough.

I've never not liked the world before. This is new to me. I still find lots of beautiful bits and pieces and perhaps love them more in comparison to the rest.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 04:58PM

If only so many of the wrong kind of humans weren't cluttering it so!

Why it could be a paradise, but for ...

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 04, 2021 09:51AM

If you don't like the vast majority of people, when N.O.T.D applies to everybody, at what point does it stop being discrimination and just become common sense?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 04:52AM

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Remember under POTUS43 our outrage watching the
> Taliban deface an ancient Buddhist sculpture
> carved into a mountain? —They found the
> sculpture offensive; we found their defacement,
> their “cancelling”, offensive.

This is a gem. On the one hand you are comparing a private company's business decision with the Taliban's actions. A wee bit overwrought, is that not?

On the other hand, you applaud exactly what the Taliban were doing. They tore down the remnants of other people's ancient culture much as the United States and European countries demolished less privileged people's cultures. The truth is that if people like you came along in several decades and saw the Taliban revision of Central Asian history, you would by force of logic be compelled to accept that revisionism and treat attempts by "progressives" to uncover the region's ancient Buddhist legacy as cancellation of the Taliban's actions. Erasing history, you would say.


----------------------
> There is no bottom to this kind of behaviour.
> There is no principle to halt this slide.
> Everything in principle is on this slope.

There is irony in your use of the word "principle," for you don't exhibit any. The double standard must cease. You can't reasonably complain when the Taliban does something whose results are effectively the same as the outcome of past Western atrocities.

Or you can. But we may by the same token laugh at your lack of moral consistency.

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 10:48AM

and we'll come up with a Gaussian distribution.
Most of us somewhere in the middle, in that big fat part.

The skinny far-left and skinny far-right tails are both completely insane:

Both are divorced from reality.
Both are intolerant.
Both are righteous.
Both are into purity tests.
Both condemn easily any who fail those purity tests.
Both want to tell you how to run your life.
Both ends will use violence to enforce their right-ness over you.

Now, if you can see that both ends are completely nutty - you're doing okay. You're not crazy.

If you can only see one end of the distribution as being problematic -- well, may want to think about why that is.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 11:16AM

Dr. No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The skinny far-left and skinny far-right tails are
> both completely insane:

You can never be too skinny or too rich in America. Happy National Anthem Day!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 04, 2021 02:10AM

--says the man who lost significant weight two or three years ago and will soon be coming to a catwalk near you.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 03, 2021 04:04PM

Last night I saw some of the images in question. Oh yeah, racist. I understand that some news outlets aren't broadcasting the pictures so as not to perpetuate any offensive imagery. It would help more people understand the controversy, though, if they saw the illustrations that are now considered racist but were not so back in the day. I understand not wanting to show them though. Racist stereotypes.

As a child reading Dr. Seuss they were just pictures. But there could easily be an insidious negative effect by at the very least indicating to kids if only subconsciously that this is the reality of people of other races (Black men portrayed as cannibals; Asian men shown grabbing for materials of war). What we soak in as children can take a lot of ferreting out as adults.

We're definitely living in an interesting age of reckoning. I appreciate the education. It takes effort though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2021 04:05PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: March 04, 2021 01:14AM

Things change. Things adapt. People have a right to buy or not. Some may not buy a My Pillow because of their viewpoint or because it is a crappy product. Others may buy Goya beans or not because they were hawked from the Resolute desk. I buy Uncle Ben's because I can't make rice for shit even though I have been shown by experts. I don't buy Aunt Jemima because there are other things I like better. It will soon be Pearl Milling btw.

My guess is that in time the Dr. Seuss books will go through the same kinds of changes as Little Black Sambo. Sambo's restaurant was THE only good thing about getting dragged out to St. George when I was a kid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Little_Black_Sambo

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 04, 2021 02:08AM

Exactly. And Seuss himself made some changes in his books as he realized others perceived them as offensive. All that is happening now is that his successors are doing what he almost certainly have.

And those books whose publication is ceasing are not his great ones anyway. I'm the sort of person who might well check them out of the library and read them, but there is nothing wrong with a company making the business decision to stop producing them--especially a company whose founder was about as touchy-feely liberal as one could get.

In effect, the Seuss managers have opted to correct the record--to cancel the cancellation, if one must speak in the Trumpian argot.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: March 04, 2021 10:37AM

A lot of purposeful misreading going on here, but I'll leave that aside.


Historical Note:

To "cancel" something or someone, in the recent usage, arose, as far as I can see, from "black twitter", at least that is where I first came across it three or four years ago. It was the word used by left wing activists that right wingers properly picked up to create "cancel culture" as a term for criticism.

But the right wing has long been associated with what we today call "cancel culture", with a long, infamous track record of elaborately funded and boosted campaigns to "cancel", or censor aspects of our culture. No need to go as far back as the the attempted cancelling of James Joyce, DH. Lawrence, Henry Miller, or the famous trial over Ginsberg's poem "Howl". The 80s, the time when I became politically conscious, was rife with right wing attempts to practice cancel culture.

LA Times, 1989:

"It has been, say Krug and other censorship experts, a confluence of moralistic social ferment driven by values dictated by fundamentalist Christianity and a not-unrelated conservative political agenda that demands that government get off of the backs of the citizenry but at the same time require conformity with stricter and more subjective moral standards.

"The trends monitored by Krug have affected primarily the visual arts and literature. However, government censorship dominated broadcasting in the 1980s, too. A long-dormant Federal Communications Commission, spurred to life by religious lobbies such as the American Family Assn. and Morality in Media, began cracking down on radio and television programs that the commission found indecent."

But on a hopeful note, Americans at the time didn't put up with it:

"But as the decade comes to an end, Krug sees a curious result. While there is no question, she says, that the number of censorship incidents has increased and continues to grow, a strengthening of the will to resist appears to have developed, too. After all, while fundamentalists attempted to completely suppress the film “The Last Temptation of Christ,” the picture was released and found perhaps a greater audience than it might have if the censorship campaign had not been mounted."

But, as the 90s were about to begin, the article ends on a caution:

"'By 1989, groups that were using censorship became much more effective. The targets were everything from great literature--'Of Mice and Men,’ ‘To Kill a Mockingbird’ and ‘Catcher in the Rye,’ to sex-education curricula.'

"The way Kropp figures the equation, the ‘80s are ending with ample cause for alarm still recognizable. 'The climate seems to be--and has over the decade become--much more hospitable to censorship,' he said. 'It’s not such a bad word any more, and, very frequently and more and more, becoming a very useful political tool.”

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-12-25-ca-781-story.html

Today's left-wing is now avowedly and shamelessly pro-censorship. They learned well how to make cancel culture into a "very useful political tool." The ACLU has even turned against it's old principles and have jumped whole-heartedly on board.


Now, to what personally pisses you off is none of my concern, it is irrelevant to the OP. Whether it's 80s rap lyrics, Piss-Christ or the images of Robert Mapplethorpe, on the right hand, or a handful of Dr. Seuss books on the left hand, I don't care. Both sides use the exact same arguments to justify their call and approval of censorship, of cancelling, of ridding the culture of that which they find offensive.

The bottom line is this idea of ridding our culture of that which offends. Culture is often offensive. I personally find 90% of Netflix egregiously offensive to every aesthetic instinct in my body and mind, on a myriad of grounds. But so what? Cancel Netflix? Well I did. Cancel it for everybody else because of my taking offence? Hardly.

Whether it's values "dictated by fundamentalist Christianity", as it was in the 80s, or values dictated by Wokism, for lack of a better term, today, I'm not on board. The answer to bad speech is more speech, not less. And everybody gets to talk about what they think is bad speech, whether they are woke or not, fundamentalist or not.

And to those that applaud the current fashion for woke censorship, don't be surprised if tides change again and that which you agree with, that which you find necessary, gets censored; except this time, unlike in the 80s, you will have no principles to fall back on, since you take up the exact, same cudgel to pound upon what you found offensive.

Human

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Posted by: G. Salviati ( )
Date: March 04, 2021 12:10PM

"The bottom line is this idea of ridding our culture of that which offends. Culture is often offensive. I personally find 90% of Netflix egregiously offensive to every aesthetic instinct in my body and mind, on a myriad of grounds. But so what? Cancel Netflix? Well I did. Cancel it for everybody else because of my taking offence? Hardly."

Here is my response:

Suppose you exercise your First Amendment rights by writing to Netflix to voice your opinion as to what offends you. (This is really what you indirectly did when you canceled your subscription) This simple communication (or gesture) has no "cancel culture" agenda built into it; it merely states what offends you. All you want is to be counted. Presumably so far so good. But then suppose others also write the same letter, such that Netflix decides to remove the offending material, or shift its programming. Who is guilty of what in this scenario?

When you complain about Netflix' programing, it is not just that you personally don't like it. You are making a value judgment. It is equivalent to saying "That (offensive material) shouldn't be there; it's harmful; it's bad, its in poor taste; its not helpful." You are not just presenting your psychological state just in case someone is interested in how you are feeling. You are trying to say something objective; something they should consider. You are suggesting a shift in values to your favored direction.

In short, as a culture evolves it reflects the changing sensitivities of its members. There is little difference between a person expressing their views openly, honestly, and passionately (whether on the Right or Left) and advocating a change in society that "cancels" to some extent some competing point of view. Nobody has to say "shut that guy up," or "ban those books." The culture will shift in the direction that reflects the sensibilities of those who are loudest and most passionate. We are seeing this tug-a-war now. Fundamentally, it is about competing values, not about censorship.

So, I guess your point is that we should not be too vocal or passionate about our views, least society adopt them, and suppress the very views we find objectionable. After all, the next time it might be our sensitivities that will be suppressed. But isn't that just the social game we play? What is the difference between wanting my values adopted, and wanting opposing values suppressed? If I win, you lose; if you win, I lose. But, both of us can keep shouting and complaining all we want to. Nobody is censoring anybody. There is just no guarantee of a continuing audience for views society has found to be offensive. (After all, in modern times nobody is interested in the views of those who advocate for slavery!)

You said, quite rightly, "The answer to bad speech is more speech, not less. And everybody gets to talk about what they think is bad speech, whether they are woke or not, fundamentalist or not."

Okay, but more speech will not necessary reflect equal speech; and some speech will win out over others. "Cancel culture" is just what happens when the values in a society shift--for better or worse--because of more speech! Some views (mostly at the extremes) just get canceled.

In short, it seems to me that the whole idea of "cancel culture" is myth that only reflects what people on one side say when the other side seems to be getting the upper hand with respect to some cultural battle. And there seems to be a balance sheet attached, such that the extremes of each side remain in check; absent a political upheaval where freedom of speech is itself legally suppressed; and our democratic institutions are lost or threatened. So, when I look at this "cancel culture" debate, I ask myself, "Who is trying to undermine people's *legal* right to be heard; to vote? For me, that is what cancel culture is really about!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 04, 2021 02:22PM

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A lot of purposeful misreading going on here, but
> I'll leave that aside.

Yeah, we'll see about that.


----------------
> Historical Note:
>
> To "cancel" something or someone, in the recent
> usage, arose, as far as I can see, from "black
> twitter", at least that is where I first came
> across it three or four years ago.

You may be right. Can you prove it? Or do we accept your views on faith?


---------------
>
> But the right wing has long been associated with
> what we today call "cancel culture", with a long,
> infamous track record of elaborately funded and
> boosted campaigns to "cancel", or censor aspects
> of our culture. No need to go as far back as the
> the attempted cancelling of James Joyce, DH.
> Lawrence, Henry Miller, or the famous trial over
> Ginsberg's poem "Howl". The 80s, the time when I
> became politically conscious, was rife with right
> wing attempts to practice cancel culture.

So what were you just saying? You inform us that the phenomenon of cancel culture was strongest on the right, but that the words themselves are a product of the left--and the words are as important, or more, than the phenomenon?

Ridiculous.


----------------
> LA Times, 1989:

*snip*

You think an editorial based on interviews with Krug and written over 30 years ago is relevant today? I guess she's a prophet and hence deserves reading like the scriptures did. Did she prophesy the rise of Trumpism and its effect on American politics?

And is there not irony in your citing Krug, who was only concerned about censorship in public libraries, in support of your view that a company is wrong to stop printing six books? Because Krug never said anything about the private sector.

I venture that someone who "intentionally misreads" an article as profoundly as you just did--urging libraries not to lock away books read as demanding that publishers not change their offerings--is something of a hypocrite. Or was your "misreading" unintentional?

That would be embarrassing.


----------------
> Today's left-wing is now avowedly and shamelessly
> pro-censorship. They learned well how to make
> cancel culture into a "very useful political
> tool." The ACLU has even turned against it's old
> principles and have jumped whole-heartedly on
> board.

Sure. History should never be revised. Clovis First was wrong, but it was the consensus and hence should never be abandoned no matter how much evidence disproves it. The established orthodoxy was that Neanderthals did not interbreed with Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Now we know that was false, but it was the established view and hence must not be revised. And any publisher that stops producing the older books should be condemned for "cancel culture."

Or does your hostility to historical reform only apply to modern consensuses? Is it your view that having been excluded from US or Canadian history, Native Americans and African Americans did not exist and hence should not be written into better histories? Do traitors against the United States cease being traitors because their statues have stood in public squares for decades?


-----------------
> The bottom line is this idea of ridding our
> culture of that which offends. Culture is often
> offensive. I personally find 90% of Netflix
> egregiously offensive to every aesthetic instinct
> in my body and mind, on a myriad of grounds. But
> so what? Cancel Netflix? Well I did. Cancel it for
> everybody else because of my taking offence?

But you go farther. You are upset because a private company stopped publishing six books. Consistency would demand that you insist Netflix never take down any movies or series that some people find offensive.


-------------
> Whether it's values "dictated by fundamentalist
> Christianity", as it was in the 80s, or values
> dictated by Wokism, for lack of a better term,
> today, I'm not on board. The answer to bad speech
> is more speech, not less. And everybody gets to
> talk about what they think is bad speech, whether
> they are woke or not, fundamentalist or not.

Except that you are demanding that people who have been silenced remain silent. Again, you prioritize an established history that you think is morally "right" irrespective of better evidence. The only cancellation you oppose is therefore that of your own cancel culture.

Human, what do you call a system in which corporations are not free to make their own decisions and should be compelled by the politically interested, like you, to hew to a party line?

Socialism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2021 03:23PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: March 04, 2021 10:54AM

Not so long ago, people living in a closed, racist society didn't have to worry about offending anyone who was excluded from that society.

Things have changed.

Sorry, not sorry.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: March 04, 2021 12:04PM

Things change? Indeed, they do. But not lineally, and definitely not always for the better.

For example, today's MSM is far more consolidated and powerful than it every was in the 80s. Amazon's power over book exposure and sales, for example, is a change that now provides endless examples of this:

Amazon bans book exposing U.S. COVID chaos --a commentary:

***The censored book is “Capitalism on a Ventilator: The Impact of COVID-19 in China & the U.S.” This anthology of 55 articles by a broad range of social justice authors discuss the importance of free health care, social distancing, testing, protective equipment, education and social mobilizations during the pandemic.

The book highlights the differences in policy and state organization toward a virus that has so far caused fewer than 5,000 deaths in China, but more than 225,000 deaths in the U.S. The book also shows the glaring lack of social support infrastructure in the U.S. in contrast to U.S. trillions spent on elaborate military, police and prison infrastructure, both at home and worldwide.***

https://www.workers.org/2020/11/52143/amp/

Hardly a change for the better.



Can't recommend this dialogue about censorship between Matt Taibbi, Katie Halper and Shahid Buttar highly enough (the whole is worthwhile, but the exchange with Buttar begins at the 46min. mark):

https://youtu.be/xtJdVpvJubU

(Forgive me, no time to include a snippet.)

--I refuse to believe that you are naive enough to think removing a handful of Suess books is the point, or that you believe by doing so we are therefore changing into a less racist society, or that censorship in principle tends towards changing things for the better. Please. I will feel personally responsible, should you peruse the podcast, if you feel I have wasted your time.

Human

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 04, 2021 02:32PM

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> --I refuse to believe that you are naive enough to
> think removing a handful of Suess books is the
> point, or that you believe by doing so we are
> therefore changing into a less racist society, or
> that censorship in principle tends towards
> changing things for the better.

That should work both ways. If it is "naive" of someone to think the cessation of the publication of six books makes society better, it is likewise silly to claim that it makes society worse.

Your inconsistency is impressive. Established history is good, improvement according to better evidence is bad. Not publishing some books won't make the world better but it will make it worse. Socialism is bad, but corporations should not make publishing decisions based on their own interests.

You think removing statues of traitors is wrong in the United States but have never criticized the removal of statues of Lenin and Stalin when Eastern Europe had its revolutions. Why is that? Why do you only care about preserving monuments with which you personally identify?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 04, 2021 03:30PM

I'm going to take that analogy a bit farther.

Eastern Europeans were invaded, conquered, oppressed, and ruined by the USSR. Then they rose up and threw off their chains, pulled down the monuments to Stalin and Lenin, and took control of their own societies and politics.

African Americans were captured, enslaved, oppressed, and ruined by, in this case, white Americans. Those blacks and their allies are now, to one extent or another rising up, removing monuments to their oppressors, and trying to take control of their own social and politics.

Why are you only exercised over the removal of the Jim Crow statues? Why do you not bemoan the fall of Lenin and Stalin, those extremely important figures in the history of Eastern Europe?

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: March 04, 2021 05:48PM

I think it's just change.

As LW said, there's no logical consistency here because there isn't any.


I'm a classic movie buff and I've been binging on old serials during my time at home. A lot of them were made in the 1930s and 1940s and are chock full of racist stereotypes. We all know what they are -- showing Irish as baboons, African Americans as apes, savages, or menials, Asians as the slant-eyed "Yellow Peril," and so on.

So what goes and what stays?

I like Charlie Chan, but for a modern audience you'd have to explain how racism was "mainstreamed" way back then and even though people said it was wrong, they still did it anyway. Many serials had horrible depictions of black people, native Americans, Mexicans, etc. Just because it was done in the past doesn't give it a "pass."


Here's a video from the Jim Crow Museum. This stuff is so offensive you can't really show it in public without proper interpretation and explanation about why was it made.

https://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/


Confederate statues were put up many years after the Civil War for two main reasons: to publicly assert white supremacy and the "noble" Lost Cause.


Unlike the Nazis in Charlottesville, Human isn't going to up front and say that he or she is afraid of being "erased" -- but that's what's going on here.

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Posted by: Hachette's Hatchet ( )
Date: March 04, 2021 05:48PM

eBay jumping on the band wagon. Dr Seuss sales banned but Mein Kampf still allowed. Because consistency.

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-ebay-removing-dr-seuss-books-20210304-fpwv2ewvynh2zchuxmt4mhd47i-story.html

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 04, 2021 06:16PM

Hurdy Gurdy Man, no one has banned sales of Dr. Seuss. A single company decided not to sell them but they are still available both in your local library and from other vendors.

Just to ease your mind:

https://www.amazon.com/If-Ran-Zoo-Classic-Seuss/dp/0394800818/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=if+i+ran+the+zoo&qid=1614899906&sr=8-1

So sit down, release the pearls, and have a glass of water.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2021 06:19PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: anonyXmo ( )
Date: March 04, 2021 10:55PM

We don't erect monuments on behalf of those who fought against the U.S. or who lost wars with the U.S. That's why we shouldn't have monuments to the Confederates or former Native American nations.

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