It was interesting, and very well-done. A lot of the material is rehashed.

TSCC was clearly complicit in the purchase and plans to bury the documents. When "the church" says, "come in and meet the person we know will buy the [scandalous] document[s] and donate them to us...", it's tantamount to buying them themselves.

Shannon Flynn's body language and demeanor struck me a bit oddly. Says "I don't want to make a hero out of him," and then hero worships him. I'd love to hear a body-language expert's take on him.

I noticed the parallel between Smith and Hofmann that others noted earlier.

Hofmann is clearly extremely narcissistic. For example, the obsession with the video camera. Double and triple checking to make sure it's on and recording before getting all lovey dovey with his kid. It's not someone spontaneously catching him playing with the child. It's him performing for the camera. He's acting.

Same with the way he treated his wife. In a Stepford sort of way, she wasn't a person, but an accoutrement. He used her. It said after the first deception he tried to tell her, and then said he was kidding when she freaked out. But I suspect he didn't tell her to sort of bring her in on it, because she was his equal, or he needed a confidant. He was simply bragging. She was supposed to ooh and ahh, but got upset instead.

His lack of empathy is shocking. For example, saying he didn't feel bad about the deaths simply because they might have died anyway, been hit by a bus or something (I forget the example). But the distinction is that Hofmann wouldn't have chosen the time for a truly accidental death.


Things I really didn't like:

The church came off looking too good. The one thing they crave is legitimacy, rather than their "creepy and weird" reputation. This documentary was full of too much matter-of-fact commentary about TSCC. Without even the slightest raise of an eyebrow.

Even more than legitimate, it presents mormons as interesting. I think the whole notion of mormon documents is overblown. These artifacts may be of interest and somewhat valuable within mormondom, but not much outside it. Frankly, that played to Hofmann's advantage. I suspect part of the reason that some of his forgeries were authenticated was because the people doing the "authentication" weren't truly qualified to do so (they pointed out that one was a historian). Hofmann even noted it in his commentary, that some people wanted to say "yes" just to bolster their own reputations (I'm paraphrasing).

I can understand that on one hand the producers might have wanted to come across as unbiased, but the only critical commentary I can recall was from Sandra Tanner. Not to take anything away from her, of course, but TBMs will just chalk her off as the usual anti-mormon kook. And then the church spokesman dished up a credible sounding "theological" rationale for why none of the big guys' discernment kicked in...as if no one should even expect it to! Well then what is the special discernment good for, if not to protect the organization? Is it just to know when the milk is spoiled or the car tires need air? Come on! It's just not an objective treatment of the subject.

When not one leader from the first Bishop to ever ask him about masturbation all the way up to the Prophet can detect a lifetime brimming with lies and deception, from his atheism up to what he's infamous for, its a searing indictment of their imaginary discernment. Case closed. Instead they presented it tangentially by a "kook" and chalked it off with some B.S. "theology."

....but Shannon Flynn!.

Not nice to point out flaws but what was all that twitching and thumb twiddling about? He reminded me of Truman Capote.

I really got the sense that he knew more than he let on. He was arrested for the unregistered gun. He procured an UZI for Hofmann. They went on those wild trips back east where Hofmann drank himself silly. How much did Flynn really know?

Flynn stated he passed his lie detector test in the way positive zone. Maybe Hofmann shared his technique with Flynn.

There are some interesting interviews done in 2017 by Gospel Tangents with Shannon Flynn. Episodes 79-88.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2021 11:41AM by auntsukey.

Yes, that's what I meant about his body language.

But the impressions we get are likely what the producers want us to. It was very professionally produced, and they could have easily edited around the "twitchiest" ticks and stuff. They wanted us to see it.

There seemed to be a lot of affectation in his demeanor (IMO), but also a weird sort of woe-is-me.

I'll have to check into some of those other interviews one day if I have time to kill.

I agree, Auntsukey, about Shannon Flynn. Dori Hofmann strikes me as a cheerful liar who turns my stomach.

Of all the players whom I’ve listened to and read about, Brent Metcalf seemed to be the most honest one of the bunch.

Still, there’s a lot even he isn’t saying.

—Just my opinion.

I listened to these episodes a few years ago. Lots of inf..
493-494; 497-499B


https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/brent-metcalfe-mark-hofmann-salamander-letter-bombings/

Mark Hofmann was an Eagle Scout.

So was Arthur Gary Bishop, molester and 5 time murderer.

Ted Bundy was a scout, not an Eagle, but was a Mormon - baptized while a serial killer.

Maybe getting rid of Scouting was a good thing for L-d$,inc?

A classmate of DH's had the nickname "Klepto" as he always stole something wherever he went. But he had perfect church attendance and his time cards at his job were always meticulously "on the dot", not one minute early or late.

I wonder about the contributing psychological issues that seem to be associated with these kinds of criminal behavior: perfectionism, control, OCD, narcissism, amorality.

Thanks heavens I was in the Boy's Brigade. No telling how I would have turned out otherwise.

Was the Girl's Brigade your only other option??

JoeSmith666 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ted Bundy was ... baptized while a serial killer.


Yes, another flagrant example that "special discernment" is baloney.

You don't think he was that bishop's Special Project?

What does it mean when every one of your bishops denies having a "special project" but the members of the ward councils all smile at you on Sunday?

Handsome and charming law student...? So, yeah, probably a hot prospect.

Isn't it interesting that the non mormons like Ken Sanders had the "discernment" to not do business with Hofmann?

IMO, Hofmann (and his ilk) all have one thing in common: They all have what is called a "Dark Triad Personality".

Oaks has to be one of the most arrogant personalities I've ever had the displeasure to read about or to know personally. I had read where he defended the Salamander Letter, even describing how a white salamander would look and behave. He then had the audacity to tell the rank and file in TSCC to be more selective in their reading and in essence, to try to be as discerning and smart as the Q15. One little problem, though: there's a difference between being smart or being cunning.
IMO, Oaks is cunning,but not as elegant looking as a wolf.

At the time, Oaks' defense of a white salamander being plausible was my first experience with Mormon apologetics. I remember reading his words and thinking, "What an incredible load of shit!!" It caused me to question what else in the church was a "load of shit", and the rest is history.

Thank you Daddy Dallin.

Late to the party but I watched all three episodes last night.

I've had a big interest in the Hofmann affair, since I first read about it, in the mid 90s. I'd not long been home from my mission (a Brit serving a Brit mission) when a co-worker gave me the book, A Gathering of the Saints that he'd picked up in a thrift shop, saying "I think this is about your church".

I read it and was amazed at how the Prophet (& future Prophets) had obviously been duped, by a lying con man & then totally tried to distance themselves from Hofmann & the forgeries. It sounded so dishonest. Crucially for me, this clearly wasn't a so called anti Mormon book but a credible true crime story, with no pro, or anti church leanings.

As with many of us, I put my concerns on a shelf and got on with Morg life for the next two decades but the whole Hoffman/lack of Prophets inspiration, was definitely the beginning of my slow exit out of the church.

I don't remember hearing a thing about the murders, over here in England, in the mid to late 80s. In fact, it was an investigator on my mission that first mentioned the White Salamander but of course we brushed it off, as anti Mormon nonsense!

I actually found the series quite dull TBH. I've read The Mormon Murders, A Gathering of the Saints & the Salamander books & so there was nothing new in the show & minimal details compared to the books.

Any TBMs watching would no doubt view it as Gods true church marching on, while the criminal rots in jail & I'm not sure what any non Mormons, casually watching would make of it. They probably wouldn't really get the magnitude of a Prophet displaying zero powers of discernment.

A good 90 minute film dramatisation could probably pack more punch than the old news footage & interviews in this series.

Sadly, this barely laid a glove on the Church & it's part in attempting to bury the dubious parts of its history, by any means necessary.

> Sadly, this barely laid a glove on the Church &
> it's part in attempting to bury the dubious parts
> of its history, by any means necessary.

Agreed.

I agree that it barely laid a glove on TSCC, but one of Phoney Moroni's other points about "A Gathering of the Saints" struck me:

> Crucially for me, this clearly wasn't a so called
> anti Mormon book but a credible true crime story,
> with no pro, or anti church leanings.


I had already been thinking that this new documentary "needed" to be unbiased or "balanced," as I mentioned above, but was naturally disappointed that it wasn't more "anti" because that's my perspective.

But if it was clearly negative or "anti", then TBMs would just tune it out. The fact that it treats TSCC in a way that aggravates me will make it palatable to TBMs. And it may land some stealthy punches after they're lulled into smugness.

According to TSCC, "Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has taught that the gift of discernment can help us (1) 'detect hidden error and evil in others,' [and] (2) 'detect hidden errors and evil in ourselves'" (link 1 below), and "The gift of discernment ... includes perceiving the true character of people and the source and meaning of spiritual manifestations (link 2).

Hofmann said that from his teen years on he was an atheist. He was perpetrating fraud for his entire adult life, and apparently wasn't living the Word of Wisdom. Yet he held a TR, served a mission, married in the temple, etc. Virtually every leader in Hofmann's life failed to detect not only the big things that are obvious in retrospect, but a lifetime of lies and deception. His leaders didn't discern it. His business associates didn't discern it. His friends didn't discern it. His wife didn't discern it.

The implication is that he was just so good at it because he even fooled experts, but the various church leaders that he encountered along the way all failed to discern anything, even though they are purportedly gifted with special discernment. From the age of 14 on, each and every bishop he faced for worthiness interviews, all the way up to the prophet at the end, failed to perceive his true character, or their own hidden errors.

The D&C says, "That ye may not be deceived, seek the best gifts, D&C 46:8, 23." But why bother if they don't work?


#1 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2018/06/youth/questions-and-answers/what-is-the-gift-of-discernment?lang=eng
#2 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/discernment-gift-of?lang=eng

I skimmed through the series a second time, with this interesting review (posted on the previous thread) in mind:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tvguide.com/amp/news/murder-among-the-mormons-review-netflix-true-crime-series/


From the review: “A vast majority of the Netflix audience will overlook the message written in invisible ink throughout the series. But for anyone who grew up in Mormon culture, they'll be able to see a central thesis written in big, bold letters: Joseph Smith was the Mark Hofmann of his day. (Only if they want to see it, of course.)”



Having taken a second look, I think if the filmmakers intended any such message then it was written very subtly indeed. I happened upon the Twitter feed of Tyler Measom and he is certainly not giving anything away in his tweets along those lines. I noted, though, that Measom was also involved in making the film “An Honest Liar” about magician James Randi which had the same theme: the capacity of humans to be deceived.

The thing is, though, that there just isn’t a lot about Joseph Smith in the series. There’s a little, but so little that a deliberate comparison of Hofmann and Smith on the part of the filmmakers seems like too much of a stretch.

On the other hand,the Hofmann = Smith irony is where my own mind went immediately, even from the beginning of episode one. Is this because the filmmakers did something to set this up? Or is it just because the Smith/Hofmann parallels are definitely there and I know enough Joseph Smith history (from hanging out on this board years ago) to see it, despite being non-Mormon.

I did notice that the filmmakers bookend the series with the same clip of Shannon Flynn. They give special prominence to this clip by opening and closing with it. At the start of episode one is a shorter version of this clip of Flynn talking:

“Can I ask a favor?
Don’t make me answer that.
Don’t make me answer that.
Let somebody else do it.
I don’t want to make a hero out of him.”

(Then Flynn pauses but a second later speaks again, apparently not being able to resist doing what he just said he didn’t want to do):

“Because he was fantastic.
No one has come close to doing what he has done.”

That’s the kick off to the show and that’s when I immediately thought, well he could just as easily be talking about Joseph Smith there couldn’t he, especially as the name Mark Hofmann isn’t even mentioned. Kind of perfect. Even if Shannon Flynn didn’t intend any such meaning, which he probably didn’t.

At the very end of the series, they use this exact clip again but it’s a longer version of Flynn’s statement accompanied by a visual montage of Hofmann’s crimes. Flynn’s statement starts as quoted above and then goes on:

“The depth of knowledge and understanding...
...and his autodidactic ability is unprecedented.”

(The visual montage at this moment in Flynn’s speech is of a man’s hand, forging a signature with an old pen, on a yellowed piece of paper, the name: Joseph Smith)

“His ability to deceive-
Unparalleled.
I should have suspected.
We all should have suspected.
We didn’t.
(Pause)
People don’t want to know.”
(Flynn shrugs)

For me, that little bit at the opening and closing of the series is some slight indication that the filmmakers MIGHT be ever so covertly saying Hofmann and Smith are more or less the same guy.

The painter Marcel Duchamp once said that an artist does only 50% of the work in creating art. The remaining 50% is in the viewer’s brain. Because of the way Mormonism touched my life and what I have learned about it, my brain easily filled in this ghostly parallel story in Murder Among the Mormons that the filmmakers may have suggested with only the faintest scratched lines (or maybe not at all). Others’ results may vary.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2021 07:35PM by 2+2=4.

A very nicely done analysis.

Shannon Flynn struck me as sycophant --a fawning parasite to Hofmann.

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Shannon Flynn struck me as sycophant --a fawning
> parasite to Hofmann.

I thought the same thing.

I heard the interview where he dodged the question about about his target for the 3rd bomb. He gave a lukewarm suggestion about taking out himself via suicide, but I don't buy it.

He was so meticulous throughout his crimes, I just find it strange that he got sloppy with his last bomb that detonated in the car.

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Shannon Flynn struck me as sycophant --a fawning
> parasite to Hofmann.

I formed a similar opinion of Shannon Flynn while watching the series. And when I began forming that opinion, I simultaneously thought: Joseph Smith must have had followers much like Hofmann’s Shannon Flynn. That’s where my mind went.

I repeatedly thought as I watched, this story really gives me a visceral feeling for the human dynamics that must have been at play in early Mormonism: the character of the conman himself, the people roped in to the scheme, the sycophants, the innocents, the more culpable, the people who believed until they didn’t, the lives that were hurt, the people on the outside who have an easier time seeing through the conman but who have to work hard and can really drive themselves crazy finding enough evidence to convince others of this, etc.

Hofmann in his recorded confession says that the whole thing was really to him not so much a crime but more of “a game” to him. At another point he tries to characterize it as “an experiment” (into human credulity, apparently). When I heard him say those things I thought yes, I bet that was Joseph Smith’s exact outlook too.

When Hofmann, in the same confession, justifies the murders he committed as acts of “self-preservation” the connection seems even more obvious. I’m sure self-preservation was what Joseph Smith thought about pretty much non-stop as he piled lies upon lies upon lies. Wasn’t there an assassination ordered by Smith on Lilburn Boggs? Didn’t Smith order the destruction of the printing press at the Nauvoo Expositor? Given what we know, imagine if Smith had lived longer and become desperate...who knows what acts of “self-preservation” he might have committed if he thought it was the only way out?

I always thought one of Smith’s more obvious sycophants was Orrin Porter Rockwell.

One historian (can’t site the source right now) wrote that Rockwell would stand around combing Joseph Smith’s hair.

Also, I'd never previously heard the gag that as planes come into land at Salt Lake, the pilot says, "We will shortly be landing at Salt Lake City, please reset your watches back 10 years." lol

Back in the 1960s, there were two popular sayings:


Utah, where progress is our most important problem!


Utah, backwards into the sunset!

Phoney Moroni Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, I'd never previously heard the gag that as
> planes come into land at Salt Lake, the pilot
> says, "We will shortly be landing at Salt Lake
> City, please reset your watches back 10 years."
> lol


I had a t-shirt that I bought in Park City -circa 1985 that said:

“Welcome to Utah! Please set your clock back 25 years”.

When people try to display Mormon culture to our wider society I wonder what the audience must think. Are these characters for real? Why do these people behave like that? It is the pervasive influence of the Church on full (awkward) display.

I remember when my TBM ex and I were in marital counselling. When we did not have an LDS therapist, he or she would often be perplexed. The counselor would suggest we try something. "You've clamped down on every standard as hard as anyone could possibly try living, but it is not working. Could you relax - even a lit..." Before the words could even be uttered, my wife would scowl, "NO!"

My wife would never relinquish her goal to have a loving (perfect) LDS home.

Here is what President Oaks said in 1987:

“As everyone now knows, Hofmann succeeded in deceiving many: experienced church historians, sophisticated collectors, businessmen-investors, national experts who administered a lie detector test to Hofmann, and professional document examiners, including the expert credited with breaking the Hitler diary forgery. But why, some still ask, were his deceits not detected by the several church leaders with whom he met?

“In order to perform their personal ministries, church leaders cannot be suspicious and questioning of each of the hundreds of people they meet each year. Ministers of the gospel function best in an atmosphere of trust and love.

“In that kind of atmosphere, they fail to detect a few deceivers, but that is the price they pay to increase their effectiveness in counseling, comforting and blessing the hundreds of honest and sincere people they see. It is better for a church leader to be occasionally disappointed than to be constantly suspicious.”



See? Too bad so many bishops and MPs don't share this perspective...

Phoozana to the lord, all phoniness to ghawd. All is phony in zion!!!

A seasoned old cop would have suspected him.

elderolddog Wrote:
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> Here is what President Oaks said in 1987:

That was, I believe, a couple of years after he wrote an article saying the salamander story was compatible with church history.

By doing that Oaks proved the worthlessness of apologetics.

Yup.

Oaks spoke at our stake center one night. I learned that looking at one’s watch ever thirty seconds can damage the crystal and augment Attention Deficit Disorder.

I took an Excederin half way through just for the caffeine.

That good, huh?

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I took an Excederin half way through just for the
> caffeine.


Good one, Kathleen, good one. I’m still laughing and thinking of a way to use that line myself. Have a good day.

I came across this opinion piece on deseret news about the series:

What Latter-day Saint history experts thought of ‘Murder Among the Mormons’

New Netflix docuseries recounts the story of Mark Hofmann, the Salt Lake City forger and murderer

By Samuel Benson, Opinion writer@sambbenson Mar 9, 2021, 10:00pm MST

https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2021/3/9/22315949/murder-among-the-mormons-netflix-review-reaction-mark-hofmann-latter-day-saint-history-scholars


It made some interesting points. Some made here already. Some not. I'll reserve comment for now so as not to spoil it for anyone who hasn't read it yet.

The contributors were careful not to mention the failure of prophetic insight or the church's role in the coverup.

Reeve mentions that prophetic fallibility and the religion are underexplored, but, yeah, they weren’t too critical of TSCC.

So, these three were annotated Season 1, episodes 1-3, which implies that there will be more. Can we expect more episodes this season and/or more seasons? I hope so.

I’d like to see MMM explored this way. Other events too.