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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: March 26, 2021 11:28AM

It's been 2 days since our 2nd Covid vaccines, and no side effects.

Our daughter said that apparently, if you don't experience side effects, it means you have not had Covid.

It makes sense, because everyone that we know that has come down with Covid, has had strong side effects from the vaccine.

I asked my daughter: "So, our N95 masks and distancing saved our lives, then?" "Yes, definitely."

It's a puzzle, though, because in September, my husband lost his sense of smell. He couldn't even smell Clorox. He is just now getting his sense of smell back. If he did have Covid, that was his only symptom.

Last Spring, I had two very vivid dreams where I was told to wear masks and keep our distance, whether it was outdoors, inside, or with our own family.

We decided to trust my dreams and to trust the experts.

If anyone still has doubts, read what the scientists and the expert say; it could literally save your life and the lives of others.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: March 26, 2021 11:44AM

I had very strong side effects both times. What I heard is that if you had side effects, you have a robust immune system. I've always felt that to be the case since I come into contact with so many germs as a teacher of young children. But who knows? I'm just glad that I got the vaccine. Honestly, I wouldn't want to be working in a school building without it.

About your vivid dreams -- for a year or so before Covid struck, I kept having forebodings of an impending disaster. For some reason, I was thinking a nuclear strike. I kept thinking, okay, what do I do if it happens while I am out and about, and my vehicle dies? What do I do if I have to stay fully inside for six weeks or more? How do I contact my family? Etc. But ever since Covid hit, I no longer have those forebodings. It's like I knew something big was about to drop, I just didn't know what.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: March 26, 2021 12:48PM

Um, with the Dumpster Fire that the US had, rather a lot of people thought the bus was careening out of control down a mountain road, and disaster was imminent. NOT having forebodings would have been unusual.

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: March 26, 2021 11:47AM

Isn't it crazy about our dreams? I rarely remember dreams, but those two, and one that I had in 2018 I still see them vividly as if it were last night...

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: March 26, 2021 12:19PM

Any chance that they help is worth it to me. I don't get vaccines because I'm deathly afraid of needles. Imagine when I had to start giving myself shots. What a relief they were no big deal. Now I'm going to get the shingles vaccination since I've had shingles a few times and my doctor said my postherpetic neuralgia might improve if I get the vaccine.

I had a bad experience as a 7-year-old kid when I was really sick, had to have shots every day and lab tests every day.

The vaccine was nothing. I had a little bit of reaction, but not much.

Dreams. I can tell the difference between a dream that feels like a message. If I don't listen, I find out later that I should have. I've been surprised. I've learned to listen to them instead of putting everything through a mormon teaching view.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2021 12:20PM by cl2.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 03:47PM

cl2: I know you will take the best medical advice. But want to say to be cautious about getting a shingles shot in the same time period as the COVID vaccination.

A friend had had her first shingles shot and soon after got an unexpected chance to get a first COVID vaccine. Then it was time to get her second shingles shot a few weeks later as well as her second COVID vaccination. Her MD instructed her to postpone the second shingles shot in favour of taking the COVID vaccination, even though she was at increased risk from shingles due to some experimental medication she was on that decreases immunity. They deemed it more important to get the 2nd COVID dose. She caught up with the second shingles shot a few weeks late but still within the therapeutic timeline.

I'm just saying that I'd check with a trusted MD on timelines if you're getting both shots around the same time. I don't know/remember the reason for the caution but it seems logical somehow not to take both in a close time frame. At least not without the medical OK. (I think it could be due to likelihood of side effects from each that you wouldn't want to intensify by getting both in a short time). Indeed, my friend did get a weekend-long severe headache from the shingles shot. That made her extra-careful about following the recommended timelines for the second doses of each.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2021 03:47PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: March 26, 2021 12:51PM

Yeah, we were anxious about getting these vaccines but we figured we would do okay because we’ve been vaccinated for just about everything you can think of, including the Swine Flu way back when, and never had any reactions to anything..
It’s gotta be his Inca blood and my Shield Maiden DNA :D

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: March 26, 2021 01:01PM

I'm not sure if a vaccine reaction tells us much of anything. I had a slightly sore arm for about a day and a half after each shot, had not had covid. Several people I know who did have covid had exactly the same reaction I did.

One person had covid, and got pretty ill after the first shot - nausea, diarrhea, generally feeling lousy for a couple of days. Only a sore arm after the second shot. I'm thinking the person just caught a norovirus at the vaccination center when they had the first shot. Whatever the case, in my admittedly limited experience, having had or not had covid didn't seem to correlate much with any vaccination reaction.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 09:29AM

What’s the point of getting the vaccine after you’ve already had COVID and have plenty of antibodies? Is it to be part of the “in” crowd?

I thought being an exmo meant more critical thinking skills, so what’s with the lemming behavior? COVID is no fun for sure, but trading a known (small) mortality rate for an unknown one is a bit reckless for my tastes. Long term effects such as, I dunno, sudden death (in all test subjects) when exposed to the pathogen a year or two down the road can’t be tested in a few months. Vaccines have caused this.

I quit my blind following of authority when I learned the GAs were deluded wind bags and that they are the rule, not the exception.

Now, if you’re really into risky behaviors, come over to my place so we can get smashed and have unprotected sex.

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Posted by: G. Salviati ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 11:41AM

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What’s the point of getting the vaccine after
> you’ve already had COVID and have plenty of
> antibodies? Is it to be part of the “in”
> crowd?

I don't know, because I am not an expert as to any of the multiple complex issues involved in such a question. And I suspect that you are not either. As such, it might be well to consult appropriate experts before cavalierly making a judgment.

The logic of your question involves a myriad of facts, some of which may be controversial and/or elusive. It also involves complex expert prognostications and modeling. But, to suggest that you can just throw a bit of simplistic intuitive logic at the question--without substantial knowledge of the factual details--and come up with a reasoned answer is absurd.
___________________________________________
>
> I thought being an exmo meant more critical
> thinking skills, so what’s with the lemming
> behavior? COVID is no fun for sure, but trading a
> known (small) mortality rate for an unknown one is
> a bit reckless for my tastes. Long term effects
> such as, I dunno, sudden death (in all test
> subjects) when exposed to the pathogen a year or
> two down the road can’t be tested in a few
> months. Vaccines have caused this.

You apparently have no idea what 'critical thinking' involves.
You cannot engage in critical thinking in a context of both personal ignorance, and a refusal to engage authority. Moreover, in the present context vaccines are not just about YOUR personal prospects! The application of statistical data to you personally might well be different from the application of such data to society's best interest; with regard to your behavior specifically, and collective behavior generally. In other words, your personal risk factor might be exceedingly low and insignificant as associated with a given behavior, whereas the effect on society at large might be statistically significant.
________________________________________________

> I quit my blind following of authority when I
> learned the GAs were deluded wind bags and that
> they are the rule, not the exception.

Following authority is very often *the* rational choice, particularly in a social context of generally shared values. The fact that you were duped by religious authority has no logical bearing on the rational reliance on authority in other contexts; for example in a health related behavioral decision in the context of a pandemic.
________________________________________
>
> Now, if you’re really into risky behaviors, come
> over to my place so we can get smashed and have
> unprotected sex.

Really? In attempting to demonstrate your reasoning skills, you have succeeded in demonstrating the opposite!

Finally, the CDC has been legitimately established as *the* leading social authority in matters dealing with a pandemic. That does not mean you cannot find contrary authority that suits your own preferred intuitions or interests. Nonetheless, social policy in this context requires behavioral consistency; which according to the CDC means mask wearing, social distancing, and taking the vaccine. Even if the CDC might be wrong about some matter, society is better served by establishing a governmental authority, and taking the best available expert opinions and adopting a social polity based thereon. That means that even if you disagree on the efficacy of some directive, you follow the policy anyway. Such a posture is not bending to authority; it is rational judgment that acknowledges one's own ignorance, and the need for a reasoned, consistent, social policy, based upon the best evidence and judgments available, in the face of a real social threat.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 12:28PM

Thank you for that.

Having been fooled by one set of self appointed authorities representing an afterlife for which there is no tangible evidence of existence or even likelihood, is not a rational reason to dismiss other experts in scientific fields who actually deal in evidence and facts from experiments and who do themselves understand risk and accept that they may be wrong.

Following the Mormon leaders was a leap of faith.

Taking the vaccine is not a leap of faith and should not be compared to a religion based leap of faith. It is a risk/benefit calculation based on science which is something we have here and now to use as a tool and not something promised to us after death.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 03:37PM

Everything Done & Done said.

V.I.P.

Very
Important
Points

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 02:29PM

For what it’s worth, I’m on your page, bradley. And just because you and I don’t enumerate here all the facts, observations and arguments for why we hesitate, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. They do, abundantly. Just one anecdote, the CBC reported a few weeks ago of a long-term care home in BC that was hit with the virus, wherein 80% of the infected, patients and staff, were already vaccinated.

Covid vaccine hesitancy is growing; and not just among individuals, there are medical bodies in Europe and N. America at the least that are hesitating collectively. If the too trusting wish to conflate that with anti-maskers and -vaxxers, that’s their problem. I for one will not be bullied or shamed.

At least for now, You and I absolutely do not owe our fellow citizens a shot in our arm. Let’s wait and see. It’s merely prudent to do so. Those who wish to get it now are free to do so.

Either way, time will tell. But in the meantime, especially while the variants course through our populations, I’m good with a wait and see approach. And I’m not alone. More than half those around me think the same way. And none of those are anti-vax etc. per se.

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Posted by: G. Salviati ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 03:10PM

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For what it’s worth, I’m on your page,
> bradley. And just because you and I don’t
> enumerate here all the facts, observations and
> arguments for why we hesitate, doesn’t mean they
> don’t exist. They do, abundantly. Just one
> anecdote, the CBC reported a few weeks ago of a
> long-term care home in BC that was hit with the
> virus, wherein 80% of the infected, patients and
> staff, were already vaccinated.

No one expects you to enumerate all the facts. I can't do that either. What is expected is a rational argument as to why in general the best social policy is to ignore the CDC guidelines and carry on as if you knew better than they do what the best social policy is as related to the virus! Anyone can be a contrarian; or worse paranoid. So, the CDC is not perfect. Does that mean we all should abandon its guidelines--given with substantial expertise and in good faith--and all embark on our own to address this problem as we see fit? Should we all just pick and choose which model suits our prejudices?
_________________________________________
>
> Covid vaccine hesitancy is growing; and not just
> among individuals, there are medical bodies in
> Europe and N. America at the least that are
> hesitating collectively. If the too trusting wish
> to conflate that with anti-maskers and -vaxxers,
> that’s their problem. I for one will not be
> bullied or shamed.

It is not logical to highlight vaccine hesitancy as a general argument for not getting vaccinated. Neither is it an argument to cite unnamed "bodies" who are hesitating collectively. Your paranoia is dangerous and irrational. (I have had both the Pizer shots. Doing great!)
_________________________________________
>
> At least for now, You and I absolutely do not owe
> our fellow citizens a shot in our arm. Let’s
> wait and see. It’s merely prudent to do so.
> Those who wish to get it now are free to do so.

Again, this is a social policy as established by the best (though not perfect) pandemic think-tank in the world. Rebellion in this context is making matters worse, not better. But then, lets all just do our own thing, and see what happens. We can then worry about it latter. (500K US dead based upon this strategy of doubt.)
__________________________________________
>
> Either way, time will tell. But in the meantime,
> especially while the variants course through our
> populations, I’m good with a wait and see
> approach. And I’m not alone. More than half
> those around me think the same way. And none of
> those are anti-vax etc. per se.

Heh, That's right, form your own preferences and opinions; boot-strap the same with any internet support you can find, and then follow your favorite rebellious crowd. Sorry, but I deem this socially irresponsible, however honest your intentions.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 04:51PM

G, I didn’t make any arguments.

And as usual, you assume too much.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 06:16PM

You pissed me off, Salvati! Why you gotta project all manner of stupid things on me, I don’t know. So I come back to do what I don’t often wish to do, explain myself. You’re my friend, so:

My post to bradley was a simple act of letting a fellow RfMer know he wasn’t alone. I feel as he does, others also feel as he does. That was the purpose of the post, nothing more. I guessed this board would be largely against him on this.

And I didn’t take up his reasons or his framing because it was beside the point. I guessed he’d be chided a bit, and even though bradley is one of the more capable RfMers, I felt like giving him a general, “I’m with ya.”


So, my main reason for hesitancy:

1. A general disposition for caution, prudence and mistrust towards ANY medical advice. I’m reluctant to take any of it on Authority alone (see title of OP). This applies to even the simplest things like knee surgeries and a thyroid condition. It’s my body, I have to live in it, so I think I ought to be careful in at least that much in life.

2. A general disposition for noticing the twins of intellectual humility and human hubris in individuals, groups and institutions. In this case specifically, the Covid vaccines are the first ever mRNA vaccines, which is a very big deal, with a myriad of complications and assumptions entwined, a point not to be hand-waved away. This is the first instance, with today’s vaccinated being the first real trial. I watched this story of the attempt for an mRNA vaccine three or four years ago, and it appears to me anyway to be too nascent a technology for me *personally* to rush headlong into.

Having said that, I’m not against the vaccine nor the offer of it nor your taking of it. Given how new it is, how fast it was brought forth, the waving of all usual protocols, I simply reserve the right to see what happens to you and others like you before taking it myself. Is that fair?


Now pragmatically speaking the vaccine doesn’t change much, so far. The vaccinated are still getting Covid, still must social distance and wear a mask, and still should self isolate as much as is possible. Also, I’m not yet eligible for the vaccine in my region, anyway. By the time I am eligible (Sept, but that keeps changing) I will know more. But even then, I will proceed cautiously.


My biggest gripe in all of this is that your country couldn’t just this ONE FUCKING TIME eschew your religious devotion to the profit motive and instead follow the excellent example of the Canadian Frederick Banting.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 08:27PM

Human: I can understand your approach. I agree that it's generally a good idea to ask questions and even do some research on issues of great import to us.

I especially note this thought you expressed as a reason for your wait-and-see approach:

"Given how new it [the vaccine] is, how fast it was brought forth, the waving of all usual protocols..."

I have noticed that this is one of the main arguments frequently brought forth re the CV vaccine. It seems that many people miss the fact that with this vaccine, because of the urgency due to the pandemic, phases of development were being carried out "in parallel". Previously, vaccines and medicines have been developed slowly over a period of years. There are good reasons for this, including methods, regulations, industry competition, the length of trials, available facilities, speed of production, cost to developers and manufacturers, distribution considerations, as well as caution about issues of liability.

I have read and listened to many experts in various science- and medicine-related fields as they address the oft-repeated hesitation or objection to the COVID-19 vaccine that arises due to the unprecedented speed with which the vaccine was developed and distributed. In this case, fast action has resulted in questions of safety.

Here is an article that presents a discussion between science and medicine experts about some of the questions and objections (it's long but instructive):


https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/09/magazine/covid-vaccine.html


Excerpts re considerations, approach and speed:


"For Covid-19, developers are talking about performing as many steps in parallel as possible, as opposed to sequentially. For example, multiple vaccine manufacturers are willing to take enormous financial risks — planning for large-scale manufacturing up front, even before knowing whether the vaccine works or not.

NG says: "steps in parallel" - that's what I referred to above. That until the emergence of the COVID-19 emergency, vaccine development was a slow process for reasons outlined in this and other articles.


"I think we definitely need to be thinking about the scale-up and manufacturing issues [while going through initial steps instead of waiting for each phase of development to be completed].

"So in speeding up the vaccine-development process, we have three things going for us: We have cleaner and likely safer technologies to create vaccines; we know the viral proteins that are likely to raise a good immune response; and we know how to measure that immune response with much greater accuracy in humans that have been given a test dose of the vaccine. All of these we hope will accelerate the Phase 1 safety trials

NG says: "Speeding up the vaccine-development process" - that was the entire objective and all parties involved cooperated to find a new approach to development, with speed but also safety as main goals.


"...with all the challenges regarding developing, testing, manufacturing and distributing a safe and effective vaccine — no matter how much effort so many scientists and companies put on the problem — it could still take years or even longer. This is why it’s so important to have additional efforts ongoing in parallel to try to fight back against this pandemic.

NG says: Again, "in parallel" - that is, not doing one step at a time but as many steps as possible simultaneously in a massive effort to shrink the time it would take to come up with a safe, effective vaccine.


"From what I’ve been able to see, there is unusual urgency and cooperation among scientists in this effort.

"It’s remarkable, in terms of the collaboration across disciplines and research institutions and sectors and borders. There’s been more openness and sharing than I’ve seen in past crises like Ebola or Zika or H1N1. Regulatory authorities around the world are coming together in ways that are very, very important to reduce barriers and to make sure that they’re bringing the best possible science to bear on decision making, trying to identify what are the critical questions that have to be asked and answered, what kind of study designs and preclinical work is going to be necessary, so that you don’t have companies facing different regulatory authorities with different standards and requests and approaches, so that the hard questions can be more effectively addressed through bringing together the best minds, wherever they are.

"I’ve never seen this before, either. Our C.D.C. permit to receive the virus, which is classified as a biosafety Level 3 agent, was approved in less than two days. We received at least two material-transfer agreements, which have to be signed by a number of institutional officials and sometimes lawyers, in a matter of hours. Both of those processes have taken much longer, sometimes weeks, in the past. This is just one sign of administrators and scientists collaborating with each other and acting extra efficiently to facilitate the science.

"From a research perspective, I have never seen such collaborative spirit, such open sharing of materials, data, protocols, thoughts and ideas among academic groups, industry groups, government groups and the clinicians on the front lines.

"I’ve seen unprecedented collaboration from all forces. I can get on the phone and call my counterpart, Mikael Dolsten, at Pfizer, and his first question is, “Well, what can we do to help?” Whether it’s scientists in academia, whether it’s people at biotech and pharma companies, whether it’s the doctors and health care workers who are at the epicenter at hospitals like Mount Sinai or Columbia in New York City, whether it’s the F.D.A. — we are all coming together, and things are happening at unprecedented rates because we realize that we have a common enemy."


NG: All these excerpts illustrate the changes in approach needed in order for all the associated parties to move more quickly than had ever occurred before, and in cooperation with each other rather than as competitors.

I think this amply explains how the CV vaccine could be developed at supersonic speed and why experts of all types, all around the world, agree that it is safe. I know they likely can't predict what may occur in future but to date millions of vaccinations have been done around the world and I haven't heard of alarming severe reactions. The way these things go, the most severe reactions occur close to the time the dose is administered. I would be totally shocked if someone had a significant reaction a year post-vaccination.

The key concept in vaccine development has been "in parallel". Instead of doing one step at a time, a laborious pace (i.e., slow as hell) they did vaccine trials, for instance, simultaneously, instead of separately which takes much more time. As well as compressing the time for many other steps. I hope the discussion in the article explains this well for readers and makes sense of some of the more major concerns.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 05:24PM

It has been well noted in B.C. that the biggest entry point for the virus in care homes, which have been hard-hit, is the staff, who leave after their shift and go out and about in the community. Many are not vaccinated (there is no mandate for them to be as well as the fact that our vaccine supply is far lower than what is needed so even front line workers have had to wait). The staff runs a substantial risk of bringing the virus into the care homes and sadly, infecting the residents, many of whom die due to age and co-morbidities.


From an article about the outbreak:


“The B.C. Centre for Disease Control has confirmed on its website that 82 per cent of residents had been vaccinated as of Feb. 15. The centre does not provide information about how many staff were immunized.

“In a live news conference, Provincial Health Officer Dr. Bonnie Henry said being vaccinated doesn't mean transmission will be stopped and that precautions must remain in place for seniors and care homes.

"You can have transmission even when people are fully vaccinated," she said. "The illness seems to be milder and doesn't transmit as much [and we] won't see rapid explosive outbreaks."

“Two staff members and 10 residents have tested positive at the Cottonwoods long-term care facility in Kelowna, which has 221 publicly funded beds. Henry said that all staff and residents at the home were offered immunizations and that there was very high uptake of the vaccine. She said some of the cases were among people who had received two doses of the vaccine.

"This serves to remind us that, while we are confident vaccine is very effective and prevents severe illness and death, it doesn't necessarily mean that all transmission will be stopped."

“…the size of an outbreak isn't always the most important factor in considering whether to call it that.

"What (an outbreak) means is that there is some kind of uncontrolled, undesired transmission of infection," said Dr. Andrew Morris, a professor of medicine at the University of Toronto. "And what we want people to understand is that whether it's in a community or in an institution like a school or hospital where there's a high concentration of people, we are concerned with outbreaks because the consequences if we fail to act can be very large.

"Five cases can very quickly move to 25 cases, (which) can very quickly move to 625 cases."

"Declaring an outbreak, Morris says, signifies that something needs to be done to stop transmission quickly.

"While most outbreaks will consist of two or more positive cases, the prevalence of the virus already in a community impacts how cases are classified.

"So even one single positive test can be labelled an outbreak in a setting where you wouldn't expect a COVID case, such as in a small, insular community.

"That's also what happened last month at a Langley, B.C., hospital where an outbreak was called following one positive case there. Since hospitals are strict with their transmission prevention protocols, Morris says it's actually unexpected that a patient would come in without COVID and contract the virus within the hospital's walls.

"When public health officials make that call (to classify an outbreak) they will look at: what they should expect to be seeing; what they anticipate they will see; and what is the potential for ongoing exposure," Morris said.

"Outbreaks are not called every time somebody gets a new infection in [major city], but (it is) when we see it focused epidemiologically to an institution or in a community."

"Dr. Saverio Stranges, an infectious disease expert at Western, agrees that relatively small case numbers popping up at the same time in one location can be classified as outbreaks -- as long as those cases can be linked to each other.

"If it's likely the infections originated from one source -- either a person or an event -- then it's an outbreak.

"If you have cases within a (community) that have no epidemiological link, we usually define that as a cluster, not an outbreak," Stranges said.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/new-outbreak-covid-bc-care-home-1.5941508

-----

The term outbreak sounds scary. But I think it's important to note that, at least here in B.C., it refers to the type of spread that has occurred rather than to the number of people that have been infected, as the article above describes. That is why we startle when we hear of an outbreak but as one of the MDs quoted in the article states, due to the classification procedure they use, an outbreak can be as small as 1 case.

That is not to minimize the risk and effect of such an incident to the residents in care homes and patients in hospitals and students and staff in schools, as well as people in many other workplaces. In this case of the care home outbreak, 10 residents were infected and 2 staff members. The article does not specify how the virus got into the home (most likely via a staff member as residents stay put and most places have a no-visitor policy in place) and does not state whether any vaccinated residents were infected.

As we see from other articles and information, if a person who has been vaccinated contracts the virus it is likely to be a much milder case than it might have been if they were not vaccinated. This can be a literal lifesaver for the care home residents.

It can be difficult to keep up with so much new information that's incoming every day and it takes effort and time to discover and process all the many details that must be examined in order to answer every question we may have. I wasn't prepared to rush into getting a vaccine right away (not that I had that opportunity anyway) as hesitation and a desire for more information are prudent initial responses to a new situation. But I've done a lot of reading and listening in order to arrive at my decision to be vaccinated when it's my turn. I definitely do not want to get COVID-19 so my surest chance at avoiding it is either staying relatively isolated, as I and so many others have been for over a year now, or going ahead and getting the vaccine. Even if the restrictions continue for a good while yet, I will feel more confident about being at least somewhat protected from severe illness and will certainly be happy to eventually be able to engage in more activities and see friends and family again due to being given a chance at having at least some immunity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2021 05:27PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 04:43PM

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What’s the point of getting the vaccine after
> you’ve already had COVID and have plenty of
> antibodies? Is it to be part of the “in”
> crowd?

Because having had COVID-19 does NOT prevent you from contracting it again.

Too, you don't know if you have antibodies or if so, in what quantity, or how long they will last. Having had COVID does not guarantee that you will have life-long immunity to it. In fact, likely the opposite.


From the journal 'nature':

"The neutralizing antibodies that the immune system produces to disable the virus SARS-CoV-2 can last for at least nine months after infection, but not everyone makes them in detectable quantities."


https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w


So having COVID-19 once does not guarantee that you would be immune to becoming infected with it again.

To date it is thought that a person can get COVID even after being fully vaccinated but the vaccination likely prevents severe illness.

Seems like vaccination is a good idea. I have never heard that being vaccinated denotes special status as an 'in' person. More like being reasonable in following accepted medical science. And staying alive.


> ... trading a known (small) mortality rate for an unknown one is a bit reckless for my tastes.

There have been over 30M cases in the USA and over 548K deaths. As a percentage of the population it can sound small. Likewise as a percentage of deaths to cases. But I don't look at it by percentage. Rather I see 548K people who have died, many who suffered difficult deaths, who leave behind people grieving for their tragic loss. Adding to the tragedy and pain, many of those people should have been safe as we learned more about the disease and preventive measures against it.

What is the mortality rate for people from CV-19 vaccines? Negligible I am going to guess.



>Long term effects such as, I dunno, sudden death (in all test
> subjects) when exposed to the pathogen a year or two down the >road can’t be tested in a few months. Vaccines have caused >this.

I don't get the connection between a vaccinated person being exposed to the virus 12 months later and death suddenly occurring. Who has even mentioned this as a potential side effect?


> I quit my blind following of authority when I
> learned the GAs were deluded wind bags and that
> they are the rule, not the exception.

I don't see experts in medical and scientific fields as authorities in the sense you mean - as being the same as Mormon leaders being "authorities". They are considered in Mormonism to be "authorities" about and/or in their religion. This is vastly different from being an authority in government, medicine, science and countless other fields. Different meaning, different effect, different outcome. It is not a position of privilege due to an unproven religious belief or principle. Rather, it denotes knowledge and expertise in a specific area about which they are supremely well informed, where their conclusions can be researched, replicated, verified, proven.

And as a consumer we are free to do our own research and weigh the pros and cons of any venture we consider risky. Such as I have done before making a decision about whether to have a vaccine or not. My conclusion is that I will take it when my turn comes up and be grateful for it. In no way does that mean I am a lemming.

Perhaps you could re-examine your conclusion that the GAs are "the rule not the exception". That could be where your apparently limited viewpoint arises and you could well be jumping to false conclusions, coloured by your experience with Mormonism. It's highly questionable to take that construct and apply it to the outside world.



> Now, if you’re really into risky behaviors, come
> over to my place so we can get smashed and have
> unprotected sex.

This is a total non sequitur and completely undermines your arguments above.

Do you not take the pandemic seriously?

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: March 28, 2021 02:40PM

misplaced.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2021 02:41PM by Brother Of Jerry.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 09:59AM

> What’s the point of getting
> the vaccine after you’ve
> already had COVID and have
> plenty of antibodies? Is it
> to be part of the “in” crowd?


It's FREE!


> Now, if you’re really into
> risky behaviors, come over to
> my place so we can get smashed
> and have unprotected sex.


I have never in my life posted an armed guard while in the throes of passion...

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 11:04AM

There are people who have had Covid that have gotten reinfected with it.

The point of the Covid vaccines is to prevent hospitalizations and death in the event that you do get infected with it. Just like with the flu shot, for example, the flu shot doesn't guarantee 100% protection from the flu, but it will make life a whole lot easier if you should happen to get infected with it.

IMO, nurses, doctors, and scientists aren't all-knowing gods, but they certainly are not like the TSCC's leaders, either.

Rule #1: In this pandemic, listen to the nurses, doctors, and scientists.

Rule #2: Any questions: See rule #1.

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Posted by: Hound of the Scarlet Letter ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 12:58PM

Then when they see two scientists disagreeing, laymen end up like HAL 9000 and have a logic break. Because that is what *real* science is like.

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Posted by: Cold-Dodger ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 03:32PM

I’ve lost my smell before because of cold and flu bugs.

Taste is the big thing that only COVID does.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 05:51PM

Cold-Dodger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Taste is the big thing that only COVID does.


Your comment intrigued me. So I looked it up. Here is what I found.



Causes of taste disorders and a loss of taste include:

upper respiratory infections, such as the common cold
sinus infections
middle ear infections
poor oral hygiene and dental problems, such as gingivitis
exposure to some chemicals, such as insecticides
surgeries on the mouth, throat, nose, or ear
head injuries
radiation therapy for cancer in this area of the body


Causes of smell disorders include:

getting older
smoking
growths in the nasal cavities
conditions that affect the nervous system, such as Alzheimer’s disease or Parkinson’s disease


Some medications may also affect a person’s ability to taste. These drugs include:

antifungal medications
macrolides, which can treat some types of infection
fluoroquinolones, a type of antibiotic
proton pump inhibitors
angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitors
protein kinase inhibitors
HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors (statins)


https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325281


-----

Likely you meant that **sudden** loss of taste (or smell) even in the absence of any other symptoms could signify COVID-19. If there are upper respiratory tract symptoms plus loss of taste or smell, even more so. I'd at least call a help or info line if this occurred to see if they recommend further investigation.

I was surprised to see the above list too - who knew.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2021 05:54PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 04:01PM

Re husband's loss of smell: Did he have any respiratory symptoms at the same time?

I've read that loss of smell and/or taste are early signs of COVID-19 infection. In mild cases, they may be the only symptoms.

From an article you may be interested in reading:

"A recent study based on retrospective data showed that patients who had normal smell function in COVID-19 appeared to have a worse disease course and were more likely to be hospitalized and placed on a ventilator. This suggests patients who experience smell dysfunction may have a milder infection or disease."

https://www.vumc.org/coronavirus/latest-news/five-things-know-about-smell-and-taste-loss-covid-19


I wish we could all have antibody tests to see if we've had the virus. I don't think, though, that they would do it just for curiosity's sake. I was quite ill in early March 2020, with a raging sore throat and other URI symptoms. The throat alone kept me awake for 4 nights with the pain. By the time I could speak to my GP things had quietened down so I wasn't keen on getting the "brain swab" just out of curiosity. I would do an antibody test though but again, those aren't offered on a whim. I'll just have to go on wondering.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2021 04:03PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 05:21PM

Nightingale: Thank you for the article.

It's so weird in my husbands' case. He's just starting to get some sense of smell to return. He couldn't smell anything, not even the Clorox. He had to ask me if I could smell it.
He has asthma and his asthma acted up during that time.

His 83 year old brother (who lives in Peru) tested positive for Covid, but he was asymptomatic.

My husbands' great niece got Covid the first part of March 2020 and both her and her mom were in the U of U Hospital ICU. The niece was hooked up to a ventilator for several weeks and then died from the Covid. She was the 3rd person in Utah that died from it.
Her mom survived and last week, got her 1st Covid Vaccine. Shortly afterwards, her throat and neck swelled up, and she couldn't talk. I don't think she should get the 2nd dose, but maybe it will be okay.

Our oldest daughter and her husband and kids were selected last week to be part of a project by the U about how Covid is being spread and to learn more about it. They agreed to do the testing.
They each had Covid tests and Antibody tests done. Her and our son in law were both negative for Covid; however, with the antibody test, she was negative, and our son in law was positive.
Our grandkids were negative both for Covid and antibodies.

They want to get the vaccines; it will be interesting to see how it goes for them; hopefully, no major reactions.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 27, 2021 05:42PM

valkyriequeen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightingale: Thank you for the article.

You're welcome. It's interesting and helpful, I think.


> It's so weird in my husbands' case. He's just
> starting to get some sense of smell to return. He
> couldn't smell anything, not even the Clorox. He
> had to ask me if I could smell it.
> He has asthma and his asthma acted up during that
> time.

Ooh, scary, especially with the asthma. Very interesting that, as you noted, it became noticeably worse at the same time.



> His 83 year old brother (who lives in Peru) tested
> positive for Covid, but he was asymptomatic.

Wow, lucky.


> Her mom survived and last week, got her 1st Covid
> Vaccine. Shortly afterwards, her throat and neck
> swelled up, and she couldn't talk. I don't think
> she should get the 2nd dose, but maybe it will be
> okay.


Oh, that is so sad that her daughter died.

I hope she reported that significant reaction to her MD (or staff at wherever she got the vaccination). It could factor into whether they think she should get the 2nd dose. I'm going to guess yes but perhaps they would monitor her for longer at the site before sending her off (currently it's 15 minutes to ensure there is no severe reaction immediately after vaccination, as you likely know).

From a few people that I've spoken to, and also some I've read about, the second dose can cause a more robust reaction. Here's hoping not, in her case, but it's good to be aware of.

I'm nervous to get mine but more scared of COVID so will go ahead, when my turn pops up.


> Her and our son in law were both negative for
> Covid; however, with the antibody test, she was
> negative, and our son in law was positive.

Wow. Interesting. I'd love to know if I have antibodies. Then I would know for sure that that time last year when I had a severe sore throat that kept me awake a few nights it was indeed likely COVID. I'd feel reassured to know I've already had it, obviously.

I've said here before how intrigued I've always been by plagues and pestilences, especially the Black Plague and the Spanish Flu. Living through a pandemic was never on my radar. Now I have even a keener understanding of what the people back then must have gone through, without the knowledge we now have, antibiotics and other medications, and our greater medical knowledge. Horrific indeed.

Stay safe and healthy! I'm glad everybody's OK (except for great-neice, so sad).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2021 05:44PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: March 28, 2021 02:42PM

In reply to a comment upthread by bradley:

If blind obedience to authority was the problem, blind refusal to obey authority is not the solution. It's the exact same problem with the likelihood of even worse outcomes.


Unless I know some organization or person with a better track record, better credentials, and better motivation to get vaccines right, I'll follow CDC guidance. Some rando posting a youtube video does not clear that bar, and the CDC is certainly better at this than I am.

I did once work for a med school for a year, and was an i dotter and t crosser for some human studies. The amount of regulation to safeguard human subjects, and the load of bricks that comes down on the principal investigator's head from various directions if a study gets crosswise with the regulators is awesome, and not in a good way.

Based on that experience, when a vaccine makes it through the regulatory gauntlet, I am more impressed than skeptical. It is difficult by design.

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