My son who is very smart wrote the lawyer in SLC that does name removal for the Church for free. He submitted his application 60 days ago and its still not complete. So here is the process as he was told by this lawyer that the Church requires now.

My son was sent a form that he filled out for his wife and son and himself. He had to take it to a Notary and pay to have it state it was him filling out the form, etc. This guy could not believe that a Church would require this.

The forms are sent back to the lawyer who sends it to Church lawyers McConkie and crooks. They in turn send it to local priesthood leaders. My son has not been contacted by them yet. Once that happens the lawyers then forward the information to Church to have names removed.

So my son contacted the lawyer who was helping him and was told that the Church is making it so difficult now people are just not doing it. People do not want to pay the fees to say this is them, etc. before submitting forms to church. He was told that it can take up to 90 days.

This seems to be a new tactic Church is taking. My son did some research and found out since this was put in place people dropping their membership has decreased dramatically. So basically this is the way the church is now trying to keep its numbers up according to my son and the lawyer he used in SLC.

MORMONISM: easy to get in, hard to get out!

Sounds like prison
Or Hotel California

Mormonism figures since it is so hard on members it should be HARD ON them until the VERY last moment, and seeks any and every opportunity it can to take advantage of members, prospective members, and even former members, if possible.

Or Roach Motel

Perfect description

Sounds like time share. Once you get in you find out its notthe same as the sales pitch and its very hard to get out or you have to pay to get out.

moremany Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MORMONISM: easy to get in, hard to get out!
>
> Sounds like prison
> Or Hotel California
>
"Relax, said the profit, we're programmed to receive, you can check out anytime you like, but you can NEVER leave"

Apologies to Don Henley and Glenn Frye..

You can still do it directly with the church by contacting your bishop. Apparently they, bishops, have a form all ready to go, as this makes their performance look better now that you're not dragging down attendance percentages.

Easy-peasy if you are the type who likes/enjoys confrontations!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can still do it directly with the church by
> contacting your bishop. Apparently they, bishops,
> have a form all ready to go, as this makes their
> performance look better now that you're not
> dragging down attendance percentages.

I wouldn't have a clue who the bishop is of the ward I used to attend. I don't want to go back and take a chance they would take up any more of my effort or time.

Why can't you just go straight to the final source, if you want to make your exit official?

I consider that I'm not Mormon since I left years ago. I was only a short-term convert anyway so surely they can't still be counting me, or thinking I may darken their doorway again sometime.


> Easy-peasy if you are the type who likes/enjoys
> confrontations!

I really, really do not.

I am not convinced that they ever remove a name except if enough years have passed that you are certainly dead. If your name is on a record, you are counted. Long before the supposedly simple resignation became the thing, I submitted to an excommunication "court". More than three years later I still received ward budget assessments and a visit from the new bishop who did not attend there when I did. If my records were removed he should not have known I even existed...and I told him so.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wouldn't have a clue who the bishop is of the
> ward I used to attend.

I had been away from the church a couple of decades and had moved several times to different cities and states. I was living on the East Coast when I decided to make resignation official. I didn't even know where any LDS chapels were, the names of the stakes or wards, or any other Mormons, much less which ward I was supposedly in or the Bishop's name. So I got out the Yellow Pages, where I discovered there was a mission office in town. I called up and a helpful missionary gave me the info I needed. Poor guy had come to bring people into the fold and he unwittingly helped one of the sheep leave.

"Poor guy had come to bring people into the fold and he unwittingly helped one of the sheep leave."

Ironically, that's probably true of a lot of missionaries. Because their spiel and sell isn't based on truth. And there's a lot of information about the church that they are not made aware of and even if they were, they are told to convert with "milk before meat" strategy.

How many converts became exmo when they learned about Brigham Young, or they learned about the polandry, or when they learned about the seer stone, simply because that's not what they were taught by the missionaries? I know, for me, personally, even being BIC, the manipulation and deception was what pushed me away the hardest. So, inadvertently, all ignorant little missionaries are laying groundwork for helping the sheep to leave.

SEcular Priest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This seems to be a new tactic Church is taking. My
> son did some research and found out since this was
> put in place people dropping their membership has
> decreased dramatically. So basically this is the
> way the church is now trying to keep its numbers
> up according to my son and the lawyer he used in
> SLC.

Interesting observation. Sounds plausible. And not honest on the church's part.

Honesty is not necessary for a corporation, nor for individuals who have received the second anointing.

Haha. Well said.

But OTOH, not really funny at all. They cause people ongoing misery.

The church alleges that member swho didn't wanto be removed would have their name submitted by pranksters and malicious actors. I can see their argument.

Most Banks/credit unions have free notary for their members.

AFAIK, the requirement for a notary only applies to people who use the lawyer. I believe he requires an ID as well to verify you are who you say you are. Also, there have been times in the past when he was really backed up with requests.

It is not necessary to use his services. You can email the church with your info, and it should be processed in the usual manner. For as long as you could resign, the church has always kicked it back to the local ward and bishop for processing (at which point you are sent a letter that your resignation is "a local matter." I'm not sure if the church still does this.) The bishop then sends it back to Member Records for whatever final process they do there. Your notification that the church has completed this process comes through Member Records.

This normally takes no more than two months. Sometimes it is much faster than that. If there is no result within two months, you can call Member Records and they will complete the process. The church has a lot of experience with it at this point, and in most instances, everything proceeds smoothly.

It used to be that bishops sometimes sat on the resignation for whatever reason. I believe that is a lot less common now. However if the bishop stalls, Member Records can step in after 60 days. It's also possible that the bishop might contact you to make sure a) it's really you, and b) that you indeed wish to resign. If he does contact you, you can either respond simply to those questions or simply ignore his inquiries.

https://www.exmormon.org/remove.htm

This is not particularly new. If you use a lawyer, LDS Inc wants the resignation notarized.

If you don’t use a lawyer you can just send them a resignation letter. You don’t need a lawyer, and it just complicates the process.

In either case, your membership is over as soon as they receive the resignation. All the rest is them jumping through their own hoops. The final letter from them is just verification that they made it through their hoops and have updated your record to reflect that you are no longer a member.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All the rest is them jumping through their own hoops.

Haha, this visual made me laugh.

True enough.

They try to make it appear like you are the one jumping through hoops, but it’s not true. You don’t have to wait for the final letter to be “not a member”. You don’t have to talk to the bishop at all.

I know I didn't HAVE to have the letter, but I took great joy in putting it in a scrapbook--along with my last temple recommend--and my stickers from Planned Parenthood--and...

Even though it's all fluff that means nothing, I wanted proof that I don't have a bishop or a minister. I'm not Sister Dorothy despite the dang salutation at the top of the letter.

I agree. You don't need the church to do anything for your resignation to be efficacious. Send them the letter and warn them that you'll sue if the don't immediately confirm it.

Then you can just sit back and know you've resigned whether the church replies at all. I might send the letter certified and with a return receipt, but that's as much as I'd do; it's more for my peace of mind than any concern regarding the church.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you use a lawyer,
> LDS Inc wants the resignation notarized.

Yeah, if you're going to get all legal on them they get legal in return.

I resigned just a couple of months ago, and it was quick and easy, but then again, I didn’t involve any lawyers.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2357925,2357925#msg-2357925

As it is frequently pointed out here, “name removal” is mormonspeak. It’s resigning your membership in the church. And it’s also important that you remember that it’s not a request, it’s not an application, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has no say in the matter.

Like this one: https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1130164

Resignation from the church is serious business, which is why we have always asked people not to pull any stunts related to it.

My personal advice to anyone wanting to resign is to do it via certified mail and to have the letter notarized. Keep a copy of the letter and the certified mail receipt. That way the church can't claim that they never got it, or that you aren't who you claim you are.

Notarization is cheap (maybe $10), easy to find (UPS Stores, for example), and the best way to maintain peace of mind when you're performing this most life-altering act.

CZ (admin)

I’ve never been charged to have a signature notarized.

Yup, lawyers are just more problems. Notarize it, send it registered/certified signature required then you are FINISHED. Period. As soon as you have that the rest is just their own crap. They will still send you crap in the mail but you can just toss it in the recycling. That is the law.

^yep.
The minute you send it, you're no longer Mormon, no matter how long they drag their feet.
fuck 'em!

Here are some places you might get something notarized for free.

https://www.thefrugalnoodle.com/notarize-your-document-for-free/

The bank or credit union where you have an account will usually do it for free.

This leads to the position:
If I quit attending or associating with the organization it becomes a matter of their record keeping whether or not I am in reality a member.
I might claim you as a member of my club but if you do not participate then you are in effect not a member no matter what I say.
Probably the issue is more that the former member does not want their name associated with the organization.
It could become nothing more than a mind game and if the former member doesn't play soon it will be pointless for the club



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2021 01:41PM by thedesertrat1.

Just to reiterate, from my personal experience, the easiest and quickest way to officially get out is to email msr-confrec@ldschurch.org and just say “I resign my membership.”

No notary, no lawyer, not even any postage, and it only took 11 days from clicking “send” to getting the second letter from Salt Lake confirming that I was no longer a member.

First things first:

Please don't use the terms, "name removal," "removing my name," "having the church remove my name." All these terms are Mormon terms, not terms of those who are leaving the church. You are "resigning" you membership. You "resign." You are a "resigner."

If you are resigning, you just type up a letter to church HQ membership records, say you are herewith resigning your membership in the church (and your priesthood authority, whatever), effective immediately. Then say you waive all correspondence with your bishop or any other local authorities. You will no longer be a member as soon as the letter is post-marked.

Afterwards, the church will STILL contact you and insist that it's an "ecclesiastical matter" between you and your ward. This is BS; you have waived correspondence with local leaders. Still, you don't have to do or say anything. Within 30 days someone will contact you and inform you that you're no longer a member.

Or, or... Just do what CrispingPin above says to do.

I think that a lot of the resignation issue for some people has to do with the church member not wanting to acknowledge to any degree, the ecclastical leadership on their way out the door. The church has gate keepers (prison guards). The church member often wants to say "I am leaving and I don't even acknowledge you", to those virtual prison guards. This is a valid position for the church member to take. You owe the church nothing when you leave. And that means that you don't have to submit to their authority one last time nor get their permission to leave. The church doesn't doesn't like this. They want one last shot at you. How dare you leave without their permission? (or so they think).

Now that the church has taken a hard line on this issue by making it difficult to exit without going through their own difficult exit process, it's probably time for those who want to leave the church on their own terms to respond in-kind.

Rather than law firms simply processing resignation letters as they have been doing previously, these law firms who represent the resigning member should perhaps up the game legally. Why not draw up a standard set of formal legal pleadings that can be filed with the court as needed in these cases? They can keep the costs low by using the same standard set of legal pleadings in most cases, for all of their clients. So the first step is for the law firm to claim in a letter to the church, that they represent the church member who wishes to resign and that their firm has been granted power of attorney to act on behalf of their client in all matters related to the resignation. They simply ask for the the church to send them a confirmation letter saying that their client is no longer a church member. If the church does not comply with the attorney's request, then the attorney files the legal pleadings with the court against the church. The pleadings emphasize that the client no longer recognizes any eccliastical authority in the church and that the member simply wants their membership status in the church to end, at their own request. The pleadings could even demand punative damages against the church if the case goes to court.

For a church member who has already paid thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars in tithing to the church over recent years or decades, a few hundred dollar fee or retainer to the lawfirm is virtually nothing and may return a profit to the resigning member if the church doesn't cooperate and then loses in court as a result. And it allows the church member to leave on their own terms without needing to bow to the eccliastical leaders on the way out.

If the church claims that they have a reasonable right to have proof of identity of the resigning members, the lawfirm can counter that their own law firm has been granted power of attorney in the matter by the resigning member and that the church must accept and act on the request of the resigning church member made by their client through their lawfirm, to the church. The courts almost never question the lawyer's authority to represent their client and assume that the attorney does represent the client. If the church does not comply, then after losing enough of these lawsuits and paying hefty settlements every time, the church will eventually capitulate. The church must submit to the legal process that allows attorneys to speak on behalf of their clients and to transact legally-recognized business on behalf of their clients (anything legal can be done through an attorney). If several hundred of these lawsuits hit the court filings all in one day and are all served on the church at once as an opening volley, the church will have to think twice about their current policy. Not every resigning member will want to go through this process. But this process might be exactly what some resigning members want to do if they hate mormonism enough.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2021 06:34AM by azsteve.

That sounds like a great business idea for legal firms that could help resigners a lot.

I'm still on the roles but I take a different approach. One example, I was at my favorite wine bar and someone asked where I was from, which I say Utah (I was born in Ogden). In those situations, the next question is ALWAYS the same, are you Mormon? I casually reply "yes". Next question, are Mormons supposed to drink wine? I respond, Jesus drank wine so yes, I think it's allowed. At this point the person is looking at me like I might be a little crazy. My final comment is "Jesus stopped turning water into wine because he just wasn't making good wine". People just casually walk away thinking Mormons are crazy.

This thread inspired me to just send a resignation letter (email)! It took me almost 30 years to get around to doing it. I always said something like "I don't have to do their paperwork" or "I don't have to play their game". Now I feel it's important to resign so that they don't benefit in any way from retaining my membership and so my name is not associated with them any longer. I'm surprised how good I feel about this! Might make a cake to celebrate!

Thanks for the encouragement, all!

Good for you, Oldest!

You'll get a letter telling you that it is a "local ecclesiastical matter," but it's not. That letter is legal proof that you're no longer a member.

You're officially out! Your bishop and/or Stake President may try to delay processing the paperwork, but that's just busywork on their end. You are no longer a member, and they have absolutely no say so in the matter.

As long as you can show with reasonable proof that you have notified a church leader within your "leadership chain", then you are out and the church can be held legally liable for any damages that occur from them treating you as a member. It is relatively easy to find the bishop or stake president in the area in which you currently live. Send them a certified letter with as much information as you know that can help them find your records, such a birthday, place and date of baptism, parents names, etc. Once it is confirmed they have received the letter, you are out. If they take any action regarding your membership after that point, and you can demonstrate that such action has tangibly harmed you, you might have a legal case against them. Refer to the case of 'Guinn v Church of Christ of Collinsville'. In this case, a woman was accused of adultery. She objected to the church accusations and informed the church that she was leaving the church. They refused to honor her statement that she was leaving, and a few weeks later the church publicly announced to the entire congregation that they were excommunicating her. She sued the church and ultimately won her case against them. The Supreme Court of Oklahoma ruled in her favor, stating that the first amendment meant that religious affiliation required two party consent, and either party, the church or the individual, had the right to withdraw membership consent.

Ultimately, the reality is that once you decide you are no longer a member, you are not a member. The rest of what you go through is a matter of paperwork and how much you care whether they count you as a member or not.

Some excellent advice here.

No, you don't have to get it notarized. And you don't have to follow ANY church procedure. THEY DON'T GET TO DEFINE what constitutes resignation. The case law is clear:

https://www.mormonnomore.com/legal-precedent

Your letter notifying them you have resigned IS YOUR RESIGNATION.

If they reply claiming you must also do thus and such, GREAT: they have just confirmed your resignation.

"THEY DON'T GET TO DEFINE what constitutes resignation."

Oy. You're shouting. They don't define what constitutes resignation. The courts, however, do get to define it.

There is nothing in their "we consider this an ecclesiastical matter...." letter that violates legal precedent.

It says the bishop will contact you. That's only semi-true, since it is fairly common for bishops to skip the contact. I suspect they don't like making that contact any more than we do. HOWEVER, it does not say that you have to accept such contact, nor does it say that ignoring the bishop, or being rude, or being politely dismissive, or anything else will have any affect on your resignation. As long as you don't say "I changed my mind, I want to stay a member", nothing you say or don't say to the bishop will make the least bit of difference in processing your resignation.

The letter also does not say that you are a member until they say you are not. Your membership terminates as soon as they receive your resignation, and nothing in that letter contradicts that.

Oh, sure, they are willing to let you think you need to talk to your bishop, or that you are a member until you get the final letter from them, but their first "please come back" letter does not actually say any of that. That letter complies with the law.

Yes indeed the courts define it. And have held that your resignation is your resignation; any reasonable notice is fine; etc.

Their letter tries to pretend otherwise ("requires procedure X, contact office Y").

Yeah, just say you no longer consider yourself to be a member, and request no further contact. Report any further contact to authorities. Wish I would have done that to a bishop in Bisbee, AZ...

There is nothing legally binding in your church membership. You did not enter a legal contract. Your membership ends when you decide it ends. If the church tries to contact you when you no longer desire it that’s called harassment.

The rest is hocus pocus. Whether the church considers your babtism valid or not is their game. Lot’s of people don’t like the church using the names of their dead ancestors in bizarre temple rituals but the church is going to do what it’s going to do. The church is like a stalker. Nobody can stop them from building a bizarre shrine and doing rituals with photos printed off the internet but when they actually start physically stalking you that’s a different story.

I have had MORmONS threaten me with excommunication as they thought it would serve as punishment to me.

I have had MORmONS threaten me with their posthumous vicarious baptism into their MORmON cult as they thought that would serve as some kind of threat of punishment to me.

....What a bunch of MORmONS !!!

trying to look at this thru 'legal eyes', methinks that when a member has engaged an attorney, the best way for them to react is to engage an attorney on their behalf, there's nothing surprising about that.


As others have said, When you tell them you're out, that's the end of it regardless of any Spin.

"A personal relationship with Jesus Christ" -- most Christian churches

"Terms and Conditions apply" -- TCOTPOTCOJCOLDS

In the old days, when tracting was a main core of missionary work, unlocatable inactive members we happened to come across while tracting would often ask us to remove their membership.

This occurrance was actually more common than actually having some one be interested!