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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 12:49PM

Larry King interview of Bill Maher in 2014, even more relevant 7yrs later.
LK:”Why, in 2014, is America still racist? I mean is their anything more stupid than hating somebody because of the color of their skin?”
BM:”Well I always say Americans are stupid and I get in trouble. People say, ‘How could you?’I mean I can cite chapter and verse. 60% of Americans literally believe in Noah’s Ark. I mean, you could say that it’s just a way for the rich and powerful to keep getting more rich and powerful by dividing the poor along racial lines. And distracting them from the things that REALLY matter. Just point to the Mexicans and say they’re gonna steal your jobs. They’re not going to steal your jobs. Americans don’t pick produce. You put them out in the hot sun all day and they wilt by noon.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++ at 4:30 below

https://youtu.be/1B6mLr0ScC8

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 01:43PM

we have 58 more chances to find out!!

I'd say that's good odds! Wish us luck!

Here's my contribution: America is still racist because the Universe favors racism.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 02:00PM

"America is still racist because the Universe favors racism."

I raise my hand to the square for and in behalf of elderolddog who is right.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 02:02PM

. . .and proper!!!


My mom will be so proud!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 05:45AM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> America is still racist
> because the Universe favors racism.

Jesus, that's good!

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 01:56PM

Racism isn't the only form of (illegal) discrimination, there's also (illegal) discrimination because of age & gender & 'disability'.


Look back at the way DJT mocked a disabled reporter during his first campaign, that tells it.

I thought the way Trump acted & spoke about his predilections would eliminate him from serious consideration, but I was WRONG.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 01:57PM

No, GNPE, we all agree that America is racist. OP wants you to explain why.

I assume that it's so that once we know, we can correct 'it'.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 02:25PM

EOD:

what's your universe of 'we all agree that America is racist'?

Do we all agree that age, gender, & disability discrimination exist? I doubt it.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 06:40PM

> Do we all agree that age,
> gender, & disability
> discrimination exist? I
> doubt it.

I also doubt it!

But the OP didn't ask anything about age, gender & disability discrimination.

I know we seldom keep to a topic, but this one was fairly easy.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 06:46PM

sure.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 06:53PM

I was talking to my boss about this.
When I asked why are people still racist in 2021, when hating somebody for the color of their skin is just stupid, given the fact we've mapped the human genome and proven we're al 99.9% genetically identical, and that Americans are generally pretty stupid, she said, "It's not stupid! The people are racist because it works for them. It gives them power over 'others'. They like that power. They intend on keeping that power, come what may."

True, it is a way for rich people to divide poor people along racial lines and keep them from uniting against the rich. It's worked since Roman times and it's still working toward that end. Like Napoleon said, "Religion is what keeps poor people from killing the rich."

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Posted by: csuprovograd ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 02:17PM

My 2 pennies worth:

The behaviors that get the racism/racist labels tend to be cultural behaviors that make some (SOME) people uncomfortable. It is that discomfort that blooms into intolerance and self-protection against the possibility that a person’s personal realm will be affected by someone else’s ‘different’ behavior/habit. That kind of change is difficult for some (SOME) to accept and adjust to.

This behavior is not exclusive to the privileged white group. Other racial groups tend to exhibit the same intolerance.

Our country was founded by predominately European white people and have become accustomed to being the predominate arbiters of social norms.

Clearly, there are changes happening these days, however.

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Posted by: alsd ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 08:51AM

csuprovograd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> This behavior is not exclusive to the privileged
> white group. Other racial groups tend to exhibit
> the same intolerance.
>
> Our country was founded by predominately European
> white people and have become accustomed to being
> the predominate arbiters of social norms.
>
> Clearly, there are changes happening these days,
> however.

This is most definitely not limited to white people. I spent three years living and working in China, and the Han Chinese are EXTREMELY racist, even towards other Asian ethnicities, and they aren't the least bit shy or ashamed of it.

About 11 or 12 years ago, when I was single (after getting divorced), I became friends with a woman at work who was of Korean ancestry. I actually liked her quite a bit. There was a bit of romantic interest there as well, but she made it quite clear that we could only ever be friends because her family would never accept her dating someone who wasn't Korean. Basically she said she would be disowned and cut off from her family.

I think you would find at least subtle racism in most areas of the world where one ethnicity is predominant.

I guess it has to do with our tribal instincts that have been with us for thousands of years. We instinctively are drawn to others who look like us, and it takes conscious thought to recognize that there is no rational reason for us to have those thoughts. But most humans follow their emotional instincts, especially the more ignorant they are.

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 02:24PM

A couple reasons bounce near the top:

1. We humans fear the unknown. So if you have a color, especially a "dark" color that is associated with the dark of night where its difficult to see where the "unknown" (again) lurks plus features that do not match with mine, people are leary right off the starting line.

2. America, although we don't want to face it, are imperialists both historically and currently. We almost wiped out the Native Americans who inhabited this land before us and we haven't stopped this aggression worldwide to this day. Add this to the fact that we are not a homogeneous group, we were Italians, English, Irish, Danish, who are also Individualist Capitalists whose community ties are definitely not as strong as many, many countries in this world - the "I" beats out the "We".

Add these ingredients together, stir the pot, and, in my opinion you have created what you see in America today.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2021 02:26PM by presleynfactsrock.

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Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 03:17PM

It reminds me of how I felt about gays. I had an argument with a very good friend about gays some years before I ended up in a relationship with one. I thought they were perverts. Weren't we taught this? I was taught to hate them, that they were monsters.

So I fell in love with one and didn't know he was gay. I used to have to call him on the phone to hear his voice to remember that he is NORMAL. That he was a good person. I sunk into a suicidal depression at the time, so that is where the calling him came from.

I have said many times that many are prejudiced against gays IF they DON'T KNOW ONE.

Nowadays, I have a lot of GOOD gay friend. They are my favorite people.

And, yes, there is discrimination in ways like SENIOR CITIZENS. I couldn't believe the way I was treated as a 61-year-old looking for a job or when I got a job (pay was horrible). The manager would talk to others about me in the third person and I could hear. I got her in a lot of trouble because I did a review on the store. She tried to get me to come and talk to her and I refused. I wasn't working there any longer. She wouldn't leave me alone. But the way she and others treated me working there was horrible.

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Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 03:18PM

"1. We humans fear the unknown. So if you have a color, especially a "dark" color that is associated with the dark of night where its difficult to see where the "unknown" (again) lurks plus features that do not match with mine, people are leary right off the starting line."

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Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 03:19PM


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Posted by: hujo ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 07:02PM

There's no systemic racism, but there is undoubtedly rare cases that someone that doesn't like a particular group does something bad.

People fear what they don't know, so everyone getting to know different ethnicities would probably help some.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2021 08:45PM by Tevai.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 07:09PM

> There is no systemic racism


I haven't really been paying attention, what with not being allowed to mingle with you White folks, but according to some sectors of Los Interwebz:

"systemic racism" is a reference to the systems in place that create and maintain racial inequality in nearly every facet of life for people of color.

As I say, I know of some facets of American life where I am not allowed to mingle, what with being all Brown, an' stuff, so I can only speak for me. But apparently, you'd get push-back on your quoted statement in some ghettos in America.

I do remain curious, though . . .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2021 07:10PM by elderolddog.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 09:40PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > There is no systemic racism

Tell that to the 35% of the prison population who are black, despite only 12.5% of overall population is black, mostly on drug charges. Why is that When blacks don’t do drugs any more than whites?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 12:53PM

Sir The Cat, I was not the originator of that phrase, which is why it has the double > >. I merely repeated what someone else had opined. I believe that systemic racism does exist.

Isn't that cool that we agree on something?

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 10:04PM

If you can’t even become offended at Speedy Gonzales, how are you qualified to comment on the topic?

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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 09:30PM

If a person were absolutely NOT racist but they held a political belief that American jobs should go to Americans first, before going to non-citizens, how could they possibly communicate that message to others without others calling them a racist?

Let's even go as far as assuming that for whatever reason, that political belief were to be in error, but that still the person is not a racist, just possibly mis-guided. Is there a politically correct way to put those who are citizens of the country first (people of all races who are citizens equally), without being labeled a racist just for suggesting such a thing?

These are questions, not statements. If someone knows how to communicate this the politically correct way, let us know. The only unacceptable responses in my mind (sincere replies only), are to revert to calling me a racist for asking the question. There are a lot of minorities who are American citizens and because of a lack of education, they must compete with third-world immigrants while struggling to live the American dream after following all of the rules. Wages for them can never increase because there is always a new arrival waiting to take the job, just for enough money to feed themselves while they sleep in the fields at night. Many of the new American citizens came here the right (sanctioned) way, which is not easy. Let's have some compassion for them. How does one stand up for these individuals without being called a racist?

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 09:47PM

I don’t think immigrants are taking any jobs from Americans.
Americans don’t pick produce, clean bedpans or hotel rooms, drive cabs, do landscaping. There are a ton of jobs Americans won’t do, so those jobs go to foreigners.
That’s not the issue.
The issue all of us are going to have to face is the fact that robots are taking our jobs, WTF are we going to do when robots are making better robots?

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 10:15PM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don’t think immigrants are taking any jobs
> from Americans.
> Americans don’t pick produce, clean bedpans or
> hotel rooms, drive cabs, do landscaping. There are
> a ton of jobs Americans won’t do, so those jobs
> go to foreigners.
> That’s not the issue.
> The issue all of us are going to have to face is
> the fact that robots are taking our jobs, WTF are
> we going to do when robots are making better
> robots?

SC: that is about the worst stereotyping possible!

yes, some immigrants start their careers in food/ agriculture, but many move upwards in their lives.

My son-in-law from Mexico escalated his career from making pizza's at Papa Murphy's to a mid-manager at a different company; I suggested he take a state career position at a nearby prison for about 5k a month ( an hour closer to home), he declined.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2021 10:15PM by GNPE.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 02:46PM

So you are arguing that immigrants really are taking jobs from poor Americans, who have every reason to be racists?

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Posted by: csuprovograd ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 11:30AM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don’t think immigrants are taking any jobs
> from Americans.
> Americans don’t pick produce, clean bedpans or
> hotel rooms, drive cabs, do landscaping. There are
> a ton of jobs Americans won’t do, so those jobs
> go to foreigners.
> That’s not the issue.
> The issue all of us are going to have to face is
> the fact that robots are taking our jobs, WTF are
> we going to do when robots are making better
> robots?

Since there is a lot of other posts in this thread that speculate on what ‘coulda/woulda/shoulda’, how about this:

Today’s society with it’s penchant for cheaper goods causes businesses to look for ways to cut costs. One of the biggest savings is labor. Cheaper labor is found outside our borders or by bringing cheap labor to the US.

If cheap labor was not readily available, costs likely would rise or businesses would fail. In order to remain in business, labor cost would have to increase in order to attract applicants. “Americans” would then do those jobs.

America has a problem. Cheap goods does not support profitable business unless cheap labor is exploited.

So, who is to blame, here?

The consumer-AKA “privileged Americans”.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 06:03AM

azsteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If a person were absolutely NOT racist but they
> held a political belief that American jobs should
> go to Americans first, before going to
> non-citizens, how could they possibly communicate
> that message to others without others calling them
> a racist?

Perhaps by avoiding the concomitant praise for a wall against people of a specific race and travel restrictions against people of certain religions and ethnicities. When your concrete policies are racist, it's difficult not to read that into your general statements.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2021 06:04AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 10:08PM

The best way to answer this question is to imagine what America would look like *without* racism.


Racism isn't some amorphous "thing." Look in the mirror. All of us have some racial and ethnic biases. Systemic racism is the aggregate of all these biases. During my first year at university, I asked an Asian student out of total sheer ignorance if he could read an instruction manual that was in Japanese. "No," he said, "I'm an American." Ever since, I've tried very, very hard *not* to make assumptions about people based on appearance, race, or ethnicity.

Think of all the misconceptions that people continue to have. Group X is lazy and doesn't want to work, Group Y is obsessed with money, power, and influence and is plotting to take over the world, Group Z is sub-human and doesn't even have the same anatomy or muscles as "normal" (i.e. "white") humans, and so on.


Without racism, America would be an ethnically mixed nation and every social, religious, and political institution would have an even distribution of ethnicities -- and the current "categories" that we have of "races" -- which are a social and political construct -- would eventually become meaningless and would no longer exist. Your neighborhood, school, church, and town would all be mixed. No more exclusive "white" anything. The majority of the "black" population would be of mixed race -- even more as is the case now -- and would eventually be absorbed into a blended America of many different races and ethnicities. Why have a box to check if it didn't make any difference? What would that even mean?


Ever see a restrictive housing covenant? They all have the same list of races and ethnicities to exclude. Many also have anti-Catholic and Jewish restrictions. Urban and rural areas alike would also have a more even racial distribution. Entertainment, the arts, the theatre, industry, corporations -- every aspect of life would be different.

Pick post WW2 1950 as a starting point to diverge from when America was approximately 90% "white." People of the Greatest Generation would have all increasingly ethnically mixed children, grand children, and great-great grandchildren. The "Brady Bunch" wouldn't be monochrome and neither would "Good Times."


Racism continues to exist because there are people who want and need it to exist because they are frightened of the alternative.


P.S.: And before somebody gets into the "nobody wants to naturally mix and everyone just wants to self-segregate, propagate, and stick with themselves" argument, most people don't choose to self-segregate. It's imposed. Ethnic enclaves exist because they didn't have a lot of options.

Then there's the "well I don't find people from A, B, or C attractive" thing. This is also nonsense. There are lots of studies about this. It turns out that humans with symmetric features are the most attractive and this isn't tied to any single race or ethnicity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2021 09:47AM by anybody.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 11:47AM

> humans with symmetric features
> are the most attractive


There was a song about this in the 60s! "Symmetry in motion" by Johnny Tillotson*

When I see my baby
What do I see
Symmetry
Symmetry in motion

Symmetry in motion
Walkin' by my side
Her lovely locomotion
Keeps my eyes open wide

Symmetry in motion
See her gentle sway
A wave out on the ocean
Could never move that way

I love every movement
And there's nothing I would change
She doesn't need improvement
She's much too nice to rearrange

Poetry in motion
Dancing close to me
A flower of devotion
A swaying gracefully

Whoa, etc.

Symmetry in motion
See her gentle sway
A wave out on the ocean
Could never move that way

I love every movement
There's nothing I would change
She doesn't need improvement
She's much too nice to rearrange

Symmetry in motion
All that I adore
No number-nine love potion
Could make me love her more

Whoa, etc.



*later versions of the song substituted 'poetry' for symmetry, because of the woeful education experiences suffered by the majority of America's youth, who didn't know what symmetry meant.

A survey determined that the vast majority of American teenagers of that era thought symmetry meant the piston-like action of exuberant sexual thrusting, which spawned a very vulgar dance!

Hence the change.

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Posted by: JoeSmith666 ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 09:25AM

Drive through East LA or Watts early evening and ask yourself this foolish question again.
Or the similar areas of most any big city.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 09:58AM

If you put a lot of poor people together and don't give them an option of living anywhere else, you are going to have a lot of problems -- no matter what race or religion or language they speak.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 12:49PM

I'm going to put it down to human nature, nothing more and nothing less. We often have a suspicion of those who appear different or are culturally different from us. All we can do is to try to get along, and to be as fair to others as possible in essential matters such as education, employment, housing, and daily interactions.

As an urban educator, I've worked on the front lines of the path to upward mobility. I've always said that I can solve some of my students' problems (chiefly academic,) but not all of them. Over the years, I've watched too many poor children throw their educations away. They've rolled on the floor during lessons, danced on top of desks, thrown books and papers and pencils out of windows, and dumped my soda can over my files just for the sheer fun of it. A few have gone on extended tantrums and ripped down or thrown every item in my room including desks and chairs. Many spend the day entertaining their classmates.

None of this has been my fault, although the normal go-to for administrators is to blame the teacher because there is no one else to blame. The problem of course is dysfunctional families, and that is well beyond my scope to solve. I can truthfully say that there was not a day when I wasn't in there, giving it my best shot. A colleague of mine once said that chaos could be breaking out, and I would still be teaching. Some kids who might not have otherwise, got a chance because of that.

The kids who tend to make it are for the most part, the ones who have adequate parenting in place. It doesn't even have to be great parenting, just adequate. Feed your children, get them to bed on time, get them to school, and impose some degree of discipline so that the child can take school seriously. Cover the basics. It's not hard. But we still have too many families who can't even manage that much.

From what I've seen, the immigrants in my area (both legal and illegal,) hit the ground running when they get here. They work hard and they make it happen for themselves and their children.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2021 12:50PM by summer.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 04:04PM

I grew up in a family where the maternal side of my family was deeply and irretrievably racist.

(On my paternal side, racism was a non-issue--which doesn't mean it probably wasn't there in some form, it just never actually or practically affected anyone on my paternal side that I ever knew about.)

The maternal side of my family was intensely proud of its ancestral, pre-Civil War, southern states slaveholders (perceiving the white owners as deeply kind and well-meaning guardians of what amounted to handicapped "children"--regardless of those slave's actual chronological ages). This was a complex stance, however, because the maternal side of my family ALSO saw most anyone of black ancestry (especially males) as some kind of deep, omnipresent threat (kind of like people felt about polio in the time before the Salk vaccine was invented).

I grew up being literally TAUGHT about how intensely necessary it was for me to examine the fingernails of anyone (including apparent white people) I might encounter (especially friends at school; most especially if those friends were male) to see if there was a purplish tinge to the skin underneath that person's nails, because that purplish tinge was purportedly a sure indicator of black ancestry somewhere in that person's family tree.

As I grew up, I came to realize that what apparently was my maternal family's hate was secondary to real, genuine, fear: they were terrified of some inchoate but overwhelming disaster which would befall all of us if anyone (accidentally or otherwise) crossed what they perceived as the dividing line between white and black. (They were fervent believers in the "one drop" rule.) [At the same time, they would effusively praise quiet, mannered, subservient black people, and I, more than a few times, observed them being actually quite kind and supportive to black Americans who "knew their place."]

My maternal family had nothing but their Southern, and then Oklahoma/Kansas Midwestern, culture and upbringing to base their hatred and fear on, but it was enough to infect each new generation--until it came to my generation. My upbringing was often hideously abusive, and this was frequently due to what they perceived as my deeply frightening (to them!) color blindness.

I don't think my family was, or is today, all that rare.

Although the ravages of what once was perceived as capricious and nationwide polio could be nearly extinguished by the Salk vaccine, I don't think we Americans are close to an anti-racism analogue yet.

We're working on it....we're often doing pretty well, and getting better, at it....but we are not "there"....YET.

Stay tuned.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2021 01:02AM by Tevai.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 07:57PM

> I grew up being literally TAUGHT about how
> intensely necessary it was for me to examine the
> fingernails of anyone (including apparent white
> people) I might encounter (especially friends at
> school; most especially if those friends were
> male) to see if there was a purplish tinge to the
> skin underneath that person's nails, because that
> purplish tinge was purportedly a sure indicator of
> black ancestry somewhere in that person's family
> tree.
>
> As I grew up, I came to realize that what
> apparently was my maternal family's hate was
> secondary to real, genuine, fear: they were
> terrified of some inchoate but overwhelming
> disaster which would befall all of us if anyone
> (accidentally or otherwise) crossed what they
> perceived as the dividing line between white and
> black. (They were fervent believers in the "one
> drop" rule.)

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Posted by: Golan ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 09:12PM

Just wondering if these two Jewish TV personalities, had dual passports with Israel and whether they ever condemned the apartheid state of Israel?
Seems to me the race war was heated up when Obama took office.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 09:18PM

Golan, are you blind or living in a reality distortion field?
There is no race "war."

Golan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just wondering if these two Jewish TV
> personalities, had dual passports with Israel and
> whether they ever condemned the apartheid state of
> Israel?
> Seems to me the race war was heated up when Obama
> took office.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 09:24PM

The words of flabby old men appear to snowflakes as "war."

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 10:09PM

Golan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just wondering if these two Jewish TV
> personalities

If you are referring to Larry King and Bill Maher, Larry King is no longer alive, and Bill Maher didn't learn he was Jewish (according to Jewish law: his mother was born Jewish; his father was a Roman Catholic and not Jewish) until Maher was an adult.


< had dual passports with Israel

A remote possibility at best. Dual American/Israeli citizenship exists but is uncommon. (It usually happens because an American has moved to Israel and has becomes a dual citizen of the USA and Israel, and after receiving Israeli citizenship has a child.
In this instance, the children would be born both American and Israeli citizens.)

Some Americans also choose to relocate to Israel, and a small percentage of these are those who choose to enlist for military service in the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces), as would have been the case if they were young adult Israeli citizens. After their IDF service, some Americans return to the USA, and some others decide to make their subsequent adult lives in Israel (especially if they have fallen in love, in Israel, with an Israeli citizen ;) ).


> whether they ever condemned the apartheid state of
> Israel?

I know more than a bit about South Africa, and to equate Israel's shortcomings with the shortcomings of South Africa during South Africa's apartheid era history is absurd. There is stuff I do not agree with about Israel's attempts to deal with their domestic problems, but this doesn't come at all close to what was once "normal life" during apartheid in South Africa. The comparison is ridiculous.


> Seems to me the race war was heated up when Obama
> took office.

There is no race war in the United States of America, and all studies I have seen indicate that Obama's time in office was, overall, a powerful and positive racial healing force for Americans...and that Obama's continuing legacy exists, in substantial part, of an on-going healing between Americans of all races and all ethnicities.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2021 10:15PM by Tevai.

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Posted by: Golan ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 12:59AM

I should be more careful.

Maher: By Talmudic law, you are Jewish if your mother is Jewish.
Probably first codified in the Mishna in the 2nd century AD.

“Race War.” I agree it is just rhetoric right now, and hopefully peace will prevail.

I don’t know where you have been but even Israeli leaders since 1976 call Israel an apartheid state.

Special Rapporteurs on the Human Rights Situation in Palestine as evidence of an Apartheid system in action. For example:

Richard Falk, emeritus professor of law at Princeton University and UN special rapporteur 2008-2014, wrote in a report to the UN Human Rights Council that Israel is guilty of racial discrimination, apartheid and torture in its “systematic oppression” of the Palestinian people. (UN document A/HRC/25/67)

John Dugard, South African law professor and Falk’s predecessor in the post of UN Special Rapporteur, wrote a detailed study in 2013 on whether the charge of apartheid applies to Israel, concluding: “On the basis of the systemic and institutionalized nature of the racial domination that exists, there are indeed strong grounds to conclude that a system of apartheid has developed in the occupied Palestinian territory. Israeli practices in the occupied territory are not only reminiscent of – and, in some cases, worse than – apartheid as it existed in South Africa, but are in breach of the legal prohibition of apartheid.”

The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination censured Israel in 2012 for implementing “two entirely separate legal systems and sets of institutions for Jewish communities grouped in illegal settlements on the one hand and Palestinian populations living in Palestinian towns and villages on the other hand.” The Committee declared itself “particularly appalled at the hermetic character of the separation of two groups, who live on the same territory but do not enjoy either equal use of roads and infrastructure or equal access to basic services and water resources”. It called on Israel to eradicate all policies and practices of “racial segregation and apartheid” affecting the Palestinian people (UN document CERD/C/ISR/CO/14-16).
In March 2017, the UN Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia (ESCWA) commissioned and published a report called 'Israeli Practices towards the Palestinian People and the Question of Apartheid' which concludes, "on the basis of overwhelming evidence, that Israel is guilty of the crime of apartheid, and urges swift action to oppose and end it." The report also recommends that national governments and civil society actors should support boycott, divestment and sanctions activities in response to Israel's Apartheid regime.

In 2019, the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) opened an investigation into a formal complaint by Palestinian diplomats on whether Israel has breached the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, which it ratified in 1979. Specifically, article 3 of the convention prohibits racial segregation and apartheid.

In 2019, current UN Special Rapporteur for the occupied Palestinian territory, Michael Lynk, stated that formal annexation of part of the West Bank “will only confirm a one state reality characterised by a rigid two-tier system of legal and political rights, based on ethnicity and religion. This would meet the international definition of apartheid.” He restated in 2020, in response to Israel’s plans to annex parts of the occupied Palestinian West Bank: "The plan would crystalize a 21st century apartheid, leaving in its wake the demise of the Palestinians‘ right to self-determination. Legally, morally, politically, this is entirely unacceptable... Already, we are witnessing forced evictions and displacement, land confiscation and alienation, settler violence, the appropriation of natural resources, and the imposition of a two-tiered system of unequal political, social and economic rights based on ethnicity." Israel still maintains plans to annex parts of the West Bank.

In 2020, 47 UN human rights experts signed a statement saying “Israel has recently promised that it will maintain permanent security control between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River. Thus, the morning after annexation would be the crystallisation of an already unjust reality: two peoples living in the same space, ruled by the same state, but with profoundly unequal rights. This is a vision of a 21st century apartheid”.

Israeli officials on apartheid

A number of Israeli government officials have used the term apartheid in reference to Israeli control over Palestinians:

Reuven Rivlin, President of Israel since 2014, was quoted in the Israeli press on 12 February 2017 saying that Israel’s newly passed ‘Regularisation Law’, which formally expropriates several tracts of Palestinian land, “will cause Israel to be seen as an apartheid state.”

One of the first people to use the word apartheid in relation to Israel was Israel’s first prime minister, David Ben Gurion. Following the 1967 June war, he warned of Israel becoming an “apartheid state” if it retained control of the occupied territory, which it has done.

In 1999, then-Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak stated: "Every attempt to keep hold of [Israel and the occupied territory] as one political entity leads, necessarily, to either a nondemocratic or a non-Jewish state. Because if the Palestinians vote, then it is a binational state, and if they don’t vote it is an apartheid state.” In 2010, Barak repeated the apartheid comparison, stating: "As long as in this territory west of the Jordan river there is only one political entity called Israel it is going to be either non-Jewish, or non-democratic… If this bloc of millions of Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state."

Alon Liel, Israel’s ambassador to South Africa 1992 - 1994 and the director-general of Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs 2000 – 2001, stated in 2013 that “the occupation of the West Bank as it exists today is a sort of Israeli apartheid”. In response to the Deal of the Century, Liel wrote in 2020 that the map attached to the plan ‘is an imitation of the Bantustan model’ and it would ‘legitimize a new 21st-century model of apartheid.’

In 1976, then Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin was recorded as saying that Israel’s continued presence in the West Bank risked becoming ‘apartheid’: “I don’t think it’s possible to contain over the long term, if we don’t want to get to apartheid, a million and a half [more] Arabs inside a Jewish state”. Israel maintains control of the occupied territory and continues to build settlements.

Legal scholars on apartheid and Israel: ‘Occupation, Colonialism, Apartheid’

In 2009, an international team of legal scholars working under the auspices of the Human Sciences Research Council in Cape Town, South Africa published a study called 'Occupation, Colonialism, Apartheid?' The study concluded that the Israeli state has imposed a state of apartheid on the Palestinian people, in that Israel is guilty of many of the practices and policies identified in the Apartheid Convention adopted by the United Nations in 1973, and that these acts together constitute the “integrated and complementary elements of an institutionalised and oppressive system of Israeli domination and oppression over Palestinians as a group; that is, a system of apartheid.”

The study noted that Israel has implemented all three of the pillars that characterised apartheid in the South African context, namely: (a) the categorisation of the population along racial lines; (b) the segregation of the population on the basis of this categorisation into different geographical areas allocated to different racial groups; and (c) a system of laws and policies that subject the Palestinian people to extrajudicial killing, torture and arbitrary arrest and detention, as well as sweeping restrictions on Palestinians’ rights to freedom of opinion, expression, assembly, association and movement.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 11:12PM

Re "race war in America" - people have extremely short memories.

The hundreds of killings during race riots in Tulsa around 1920 have resurfaced in public discussion recently. There were a lot of race riots shortly after WW I. Part of my family has deep southern roots (pre-Revolutionary War. They were Irish probably sent to Georgia for the crime of annoying the British). There were two events near them that occurred around 1920. The black town of Rosewood FL was essentially burned out of existence. The town was never rebuilt but the highway sign pointing to it is still there, as a kind of memorial. Not too far away was Perry, FL. There were 2(not sure of #) lynchings there around 1920 that my relatives still talked about in hushed tones 33 years later when I was a small child whose ears perked up at the sound of hushed conversation.

My grandparents were born in 1890, which was just 35 years [edit 25 years, I should always use a calculator!] after the Civil War. There were plenty of former Confederate soldiers still alive when my grandparents were young. My mother was born a few years after the Perry lynchings. They were poor dirt farmers, and they took great pride in knowing that they may be poor, but at least they weren't black. They used the other term.

I'm sure they would all deny being racist, and I am sure there are many people who are considerably more racist than they were. I do recall that when the 1978 Priesthood change was announced, it the absolutely the one and only time that I saw my mother react to a church announcement with shock and utter confusion.


Back to race riots. Not only were there plenty during Reconstruction, during Jim Crow, and after WW I, there were the Sixties. Even Rodney King riots in 1992. He wasn't even killed, but the video of his beating, and subsequent acquittal of the police officers led to riots with 60 to 80 killed (accounts vary) and over 12,000 arrested. And we thought the George Floyd/Breanna Taylor riots were a big deal. Hell, looked to me like that was mostly bored white kids in Portland starting trash fires. There have been many much more serious race riots in this country.

There are people in this country who keep anticipating a race war, just like there are Christian fundies hoping for a war in Israel so Jeebus can show up and kick ass. Neither group should hold their breath.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2021 11:17PM by Brother Of Jerry.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 01:40AM

These are good resource quotes and I thank you for them.

My principal objection is using the term "race" [or "racial"] to talk about Jews vis-a-vis Palestinians.

Jews and Palestinians both descend from a common genetic heritage (Canaanite).

Although today Jews come from "everywhere" (just about, since "anyone," of any ethnicity or race, can become a Jew), it is equally true that Palestinians today are not anywhere near as genetically mixed as contemporary Jews are.

Nevertheless, both groups spring from that common genetic root, and this is important to keep in mind.

There are cultural and religious differences between Jews and Palestinians, but to attempt to categorize these as racial and/or ethnic leads to logical dead ends which help no one.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 11:28PM

"Why would anyone care what Larry King and Bill Maher have to say? Their combined brains add up to that of a reasonably intelligent gopher."

--Michio Kaku, upset that he wasn't cited as an authority

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: April 04, 2021 11:59PM

I see way less actual racism now than I did when I was a kid. People with a political axe to grind just use NGO’s and the media to make us think there is more racism and to try and create more of it. It’s called divide and conquer.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 12:03AM

Maybe you weren't paying attention when you were a kid.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 12:11AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe you weren't paying attention when you were a
> kid.

+ a zillion!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 01:19AM

What? Where did Tevai's reply go?

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 01:46AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What? Where did Tevai's reply go?

Tevai goofed.

;)

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 01:48AM

Never!

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 01:53AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Never!

:D

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: April 10, 2021 08:03PM

Grew up in a neighborhood that was about 1/3 black. Everyone got along fine. In fact in most places people still do. Places where nobody pays much attention to the narrative that is being currently pushed by deep pockets.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 10, 2021 08:28PM

Maybe you weren’t paying attention when you were a kid.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: April 10, 2021 10:25PM

I am in my mid 50’s and live in a very liberal state. I have never seen as much racism as I see now in my home town, which is one of the most liberal cities in one of the most liberal states. In the past 5yrs I have witnessed a black man getting stabbed for kissing his white girlfriend in public by a Nazi with a Swastika tattoo on his neck. In the same city a White BLM protester with a BLM Neck Tat, was shot and killed by police. I saw an Indian get attacked and beaten in the street by an American flag waving Proud Boy before a crowd assembled for a parade.
None of that happened before DJT ascended to power and encouraged racists to openly hate.
DJT’s ascension to power was a direct response to electing Obama, twice. 1/2 of DJT supporters are racist AF and beyond hope. The other half voted for Putin’s puppet. I get why some people wouldn’t vote for Clinton, who is a Warhawk and would have gotten us all killed in WW3.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 10, 2021 10:33PM

> DJT’s ascension to power was
> a direct response to electing
> Obama, twice. 1/2 of DJT sup-
> porters are racist AF and be-
> yond hope. The other half vo-
> ted for Putin’s puppet. I get
> why some people wouldn’t vote
> for Clinton, who is a Warhawk
> and would have gotten us all
> killed in WW3.

So, DJT . . . But for him, we'd all be dead?

So he is your personal savior and the personal savior of all of us who reside in America. Not a bad way to be remembered!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 10, 2021 10:36PM

D’oh!

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: April 10, 2021 11:01PM

We’ll never know, fortunately, but Clinton did commit to shooting down Russian warplanes in Syria if elected, in two different debates. That’s what got Carly Fiorini disqualified from contention for the GOP nomination, but somehow, when Clinton said it, everybody brushed it off like it was no big deal.
Shooting down the warplanes of a country with nuclear weapons seems like a great way to kick off WW3, which would last about 20 minutes.
As bad as DJT was, and he was bad, he killed 1/2 million Americans by fucking up the response to COVID, but at least he avoided WW3.
Pretty sure Clinton wouldn’t have.
Which is why I couldn’t vote for her.
I didn’t vote for DJT either, but my #1 issue is survival, IOW, avoiding WW3 and he managed that, at least.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 10, 2021 11:06PM

It would be nice if you realized that Trump's bombings in Syria killed nearly 200 Soviet forces. But you don't, so you reach the wrong conclusions.

Who would have thought?

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: April 10, 2021 11:39PM

That’s just your ignorant opinion.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 10, 2021 11:42PM

It is my opinion that Trump's attacks on Syria killed nearly 200 Russian troops? No, that's not an opinion.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 10, 2021 11:45PM

That's the beauty of the American system!

No matter how 'ignert' a person might be, he/she won't lose the right to vote based on intelligence, or the lack thereof.

Let's all vote ourselves some more largesse!!



If only there were someone we could trust to be our benevolent dictator for life!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 10, 2021 11:45PM

I nominate Bill Maher.

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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 09:36AM

It looks to me like the inequality between the Jews and Palestinians has much more to do with differences in culture and religion, than differences in race. At one time, the Jewish people wanted to live and worship in Jerusalem differently than the Palestinian laws allowed. So the Jews brought in tanks and bulldozers and occupied a portion of Palestinian land and established their own nation of Israel on that newly occupied land. The Palestinians want their land back and are determined that there will be no peace until they get their land back. So both sides fight over the land and rights to control the land. Neither side agrees with how the other side chooses to live nor in the cultural values of the other. There wouldn't be a conflict nor an occupation of the land if everyone were free to live and worship on that land as they choose. Neither "Jewish" nor "Palestinian" is a race.

The conflict between them is religious and cultural, not about race. I don't know enough about the histories and laws of these people to take a firm position on which side is right or wrong. I can see how the former owners of the land that was occupied would feel aggrieved. But something led up to that and there is a history that makes both sides feel justified. Both sides have long-ago applied what we might call a 'cancel culture' against the other. Under those terms, the only way to resolve differences is through war or to end the war. Having different sets of laws for each side isn't a permanent resolution and might not even be comparable to a country at peace. Rather than to call foul based on conflicts over democracy with respect to the two different sets of rules for the two different groups of people, they need to end their war as a next step. But regardless of what they do, the conflict doesn't appear to be about race.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2021 09:39AM by azsteve.

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