Hey guys, as you know I'm only a sophomore in high school right now, but in a year I'm gonna be applying to colleges.

I do live in Utah (won't say what area) but I have a 3.8ish gpa and I'm probably gonna go to college in state. I'd love to go to college out of state but cost wise it'll be extremely difficult.

I could probably get into BYU and it would be pretty cheap (I believe it's 5k a semester but correct me if I'm wrong).

My parents obviously want me to go to BYU (Provo) and have even suggested that I go to BYU Idaho or Hawaii if I don't get in!

I really don't want to BYU, for obvious reasons but I'll spell them out below.

1. 100% mormon kids who I can't be myself around (or I'll get kicked out)

2. The whole honor code, especially the law of chastity and the drinking

3. Girls will only want to date an RM, and there's no way I'm going on a mission

4. I won't be able to party

5. It'll be just like right now in high school. No freedom.

NOTE* I also am going to be a frat boy so keep that in mind.

I can't say number 1, 2, 3, or 4 around my parents for a reason that I don't want to go to BYU.

They say "The U is so much more expensive, why would you want to go there? BYU's academics are much better."

If there's any good arguments against going to BYU and going to the U, please comment them below.

Thanks!

I went to both.

I started at the U and pledged Sigma Pi. The chapter house is now an empty lot. It was SOOOOOO much fun that I flunked out and the U asked me to leave.

Then at the end of my mission, the church shoehorned me into the Y during mid-semester, with a bogus "mid-semester enrollment" which they made up so that I could avoid being 1-A in the then very active draft, for Vietnam. So they got my 4-D classification, minister, switched to 2-S, full-time student.

The U is a real college, with a real mix of students. If you pledge a frat, they'll either help you keep your grade point up or they'll let you party your way out; frats & sororities are still big on being social.

Since I was an RM at the Y, dating life was wonderful, even for a Mexican. I was never turned down, once I pulled up my shirt and showed the mark on my one-piece garment, over my bellybutton.

You'd probably be better off at the Y, unless you have a plan for becoming a serious student. Sometimes knowing people are looking over your shoulder is a benefit.

Elderolddog, how were you a frat boy but then went on a mission? Makes no sense.

Welcome to the mormon church!

I drank, a tiny bit, and partied, and then when I came home, as a flunked out, I FINALLY got laid. I confessed and the only 'invasive' question my long time bishop asked was, "Was she mormon?" When I said she wasn't, he heaved a big sigh of relief, and that was that. No disfellowhip, no 'don't bless the sacrament', just a chat with a GA and six-month wait before going on my mission for ghawd.

And then off to the mission field, where I went inactive the last 9 months.

I enjoyed being a mormon!

Hah! Awesome!

First, in Mormonism the guys get a pass as it's always the girls fault.

Also, bishops love reporting to headquarters that they are sending out missionaries. Feather in their cap and a good reason to overlook some guy being a victim of a girl, haha.

And then, the obvious. It's EOD we're talking about. He has wiles and ways the rest of us can only dream of.

Tell your parents you want to go to UC Santa Cruz or UC Berkeley or something like that to scare them. Keep talking about it and then when they're sure you're going to hell tell them you might consider the U. They'll be relieved you'll at least be in a school that is in Utah and has a lot of Mormons.

I like this idea. Another (traditional) way to go about it is to find a major that Utah has that BYU doesn't have. You can declare that major going in, and switch it for second semester (I knew students who switched their majors multiple times.) I also like the idea of doing a year or two at the community college first to save some money.

I like that idea too.
When I was in college I told my folks I wanted to take sky diving lessons. They freaked out since I have a cousin who died that way. They settled for skiing lessons which is what I wanted all along.

Sheesh that would scare the hell outta them! The only problem is I've already told them that I would never go there, but It's not too late...

Genius.

What is your major? Does BYU offer it?

Second possibility....local community college for the first few years. Cheaper.

Washington state 'community colleges' are disappearing, students & faculty don't seem to like the overhang of the word 'community'.

IDK if there's really (how much) distinction, I just learned one of my g.daughters aced 'Running Start' and is heading for dental school at the U of Washington as soon as she finishes pre-reqs.

> What is your major? Does BYU offer it?

Business, and yes they have a great business program


> Second possibility....local community college for
> the first few years. Cheaper.

In state cost isn't a problem, they just want me to save for a masters degree

The U is better for any of the liberal arts degrees.

Don't forget you need an ecclesiastical endorsement to go to BYU. And that requires attending church and filling a calling there.

From where I recall you live, the U can be a commuter school, so no housing shenanigans or the cooking and housekeeping hassles. That was chunk of money saved.

Apply for a bunch of U scholarships. Skip applying at the Y to make another money argument.

I'll definitely have to apply to the Y, but I'm gonna apply for as many scholarships as possible to the U.

dogbloggernli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't forget you need an ecclesiastical
> endorsement to go to BYU.

Yeah, hujo, how would your parents react to the news you were unworthy to attend the Y, and if you somehow got in you'd be kicked out for not remaining worthy?

It would obviously be bad, but cause I’d be 18 then there’s nothing they can do. When I apply for colleges I’ll be 17 so that’s why I’m concerned

The U is a better school. BYU is only ranked (slightly) higher in the national U.S. News college rankings. But the U has BYU beat in the other two widely respected rankings of U.S. universities, the Academic Ranking of World Universities (ARWU), and the Times Higher Education (THE). In global rankings it is not even close, the U is light years ahead of BYU. Let's put it this way, in global rankings, BYU is ranked on average slightly below Utah State. In the ARWU global rankings, U of U is ranked in the 101-150 range, while both BYU and Utah State are ranked in the 401-500 range. In the U.S. News global rankings U of U is ranked 139, Utah State is ranked 678, and BYU is ranked 748. Also the U of U is a member of the prestigious Association of American Universities (AAU), a consortium of 63 of the top research universities in the United States and Canada. BYU could never sniff membership in the AAU. BYU is a good school, but Mormons put it on a much higher pedestal than it really is. Mormons equate it with Harvard, Stanford, or Yale, when the reality is that it is more like Clemson, Michigan State, or the Colorado School of Mines.

That's good to point out! Can you please send me the link so I can show them?

Maybe it won't matter to them cause mormons haven't ever cared about logic and facts... ugh

hujo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's good to point out! Can you please send me
> the link so I can show them?
>
> Maybe it won't matter to them cause mormons
> haven't ever cared about logic and facts... ugh

Just google U.S. News 2021 university rankings for that ranking. The wikipedia pages for BYU, University of Utah, and Utah State also show all of the rankings, with links to original sources.

Do you want an education, or do you want to be an alcoholic? You can't do both.

My cousin who's a frat boy and an exmo does both

I went to a party school, and almost all of my friends and acquaintances graduated in a timely manner with good grades. The ones who had set their eyes on getting into a good or even top-tier grad school did so.

I think you just have to know what you want academically, and make that happen.

slskipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you want an education, or do you want to be an
> alcoholic? You can't do both.

You obviously haven't gotten out much. The Ivy League school in my hometown specializes in both!

I went to the University of Arizona
I wouldn't touch BYU with a ten foot pole

Hahah, I don't really want to either!

It's your future at stake, and you will be an adult. As an adult, it should be your prerogative to decide which school you prefer. Being able to make that choice for yourself is part of the privilege of growing up. Of course, they may then say that paying for that choice is also a privilege of growing up.

I would tell my parents that, but I'm not LDS and never have been. And I can be rather directive when the mood suits.

I don't like the idea of adults paying for colleges that have so much say over how they live their lives. Another part of growing up is learning how to handle your own business. I wouldn’t want to have to live in a place where people are wanting to know what I drink, who I sleep with, or what kind of underwear I'm wearing. That's my business.

But again... I'm a nevermo, so take that as you will. ;-)

That’s some good advice, thanks ;)

I went to BYU, and University of Utah

I hated BYU, except for the skiing, dating and parties. I didn't drink, and was a prude, but liked to dance and socialize. I felt the BYU students were too wild for me, because they were having sex, and drinking--and pretending to be something they were not. Many cheated on their exams and homework. Some girls were making money writing papers. I lived in the dorms, because it was fun, and students were forced to be quiet at night, so we could study and sleep. I was not backwards in my attitudes towards women's rights, student government having a say in policies, freedom, evolution being taught, the mandatory religion classes, the "honor system" which required students to rat on each other, etc. Really, all the rules and regulations made me crazy, and would make you even crazier. Even if you live off campus, you are watched by all the Mormon minions around you.

Worst of all, I didn't like the people at BYU. I was assaulted three times! A dorm-mate's creepy fiancee grabbed me at the mail boxes, at Cannon center. He dragged me to the coat room, and tried to rape me. Three of my football-player friends happened to walk into the center, and heard me scream. They pulled him off of me, but he had already broken my arm. Another assault was a date-assault, and I'll never know what set him off, but he was the Elder's Quorum President, in our student ward, and all the girls thought thought he was such a great catch, but I didn't like him, and tried to stop dating him after a few dates, and didn't even want to hold his hand. He was arrogant, and no one was supposed to tell him "No, thank you." Another was a stranger in a raincoat, who was naked underneath, but I was able to out-run him, after dropping all my books and purse. I had jewelry and clothes stolen out of my dorm room, many times, and we kept that room locked, always. When I got a car, it was always being broken into. My bicycle was stolen the first few days I was at BYU.

I had plenty of fun at home in California, and I really wanted to go to a university to learn and get my degree(s), but the classes and teachers at BYU did not inspire me in the least. Freshman classes were too large, and quite boring. I didn't learn anything really new, because if I ever wanted to know something, I always just read a few books on the subject. I did not like that BYU graded on classrooom attendance, when I could have just read the textbooks and taken the tests. I hated the religion classes, because they made no sense. I had already read the BOM, D&C several times, and who could make any sense out of the BofA? I would sit in the back of the classes and do my homework or write letters.

BYU are sticklers for petty red-tape, and if you make some mistakes with your appllications, or miss a deadline, or especially don't send them your money in time, you might be rejected. Or, you could ditch classes and be kicked out.

If you want a real education, don't go to BYU. I doubt that your parents care about that. They probably believe those Mormon lies that BYU is the "Harvard of the West." When I transferred to the U, I had to re-take some classes, they were so bad at BYU, and of course all those mandatory religion credits did not apply. You will waste a lot of time at BYU.

Going to SLCC would be preferable to BYU. All of my kids took classes at SLCC, whenever they could, because they had to work their way through. The classes were cheaper, much more convenient, and interchangeable with U of U credits. They all graduated from the U of Utah, as I did--Go, Utes! My sons were in fraternities, and it turned out to work very much in their favor. They had to keep their grades up. They were very active in planning and financing trips, social and charitable activities, and working in groups. Believe it or not, I think it sharpened their social skills. Both of my sons made life-long friends in their fraternities, and one started a successful business with two of his fraternity brothers. Yes, there was drinking, but no drugs, and my sons and their friends didn't become drunks (not all drinkers become alcoholics, like the Mormons believe). They are happily married, have children, are very successful as young adults. They travel around with their wives for the U football games, (before Covid) and to see their friends in Washington and California, and to a cabin on a lake in Wyoming, and to a beach house in Cape Cod, to the Carribean every year. None are Mormons, but they are more honest in their business dealings, IMO, and faithful in their marriages than Mormons, in my experience. Going to BYU does NOT make one a better person.

The business programs at the U are outstanding, and there's a very nice new building. Contacts are important, too. You could tell your parents that you plan on living and WORKING in Salt Lake City, so the more friends and business contacts you make at the U, the better! Both my sons are in business. So am I. My job I had while I was going to the U extended after I graduated, and the company paid for my grad school at the U.

I loved the U! The classes were smaller, the teaches were more approachable, conscientious, and had respect for the students. There was definitely a greater sense of freedom and ease there. I could be myself. The "frat boys" were fun and interesting; wheras the BYU boys were arrogant and weird and repressed. I mean, some of them I barely knew proposed marriage after only a few dates, and wanted to pray together over the food in restaurants, and stuff like that. I felt like an object, instead of an individual.

I doubt you can reason with your Mormon parents, without ending up in an argument. They might even feel that your salvation depends on your going to BYU, and marrying a nice Mormon girl, who will nag you into being righteous. I, personally, don't think drinking is fun, because I don't like being groggy and sick--but I do like skiing on Sundays, keeping ALL of the money I earn, paying taxes and considering it charity, having 3 babies instead of 8-12, like my Mormon cousins, wearing pants in the winter, being treated as an equal, and believing whatever I want to believe, and having friends of all kinds--and not knowing what race or religion they are, even.

I hope you don't drink too much--it's unhealthy, and it does eliminate some possible friendships and contacts--but I do wish you years of learning, good college fun, and LOUD LAUGHTER.

That's a wonderful response, Breeze.

My brother was in a fraternity, and he made his lifelong friends there as well -- not only in his own chapter, but in other chapters as well. In retirement, he still travels with his fraternity friends.

I agree that community colleges can be a great way to save money. I got my undergraduate degree from a flagship state university. Years later, when I went to grad school, my school required me to take some additional undergraduate course work for purposes of teacher certification. I took those credits through my local CC, and I was impressed by the quality of the classes there. They were the equal or better than those of my large state university, where in the first two years students are often stuck in a large lecture hall for freshman level biology, psychology, etc.

That’s some great advice. Well thought out and helpful, thank you

This will be your least favorite response.

If I understand your post, you want to go to a college and get drunk, high, and have wild unprotected sex. You have little or no interest in learning anything academic.

If I understand you correctly why not go to community college. It would be disrespectful to your parents and yourself to waste money on securing addiction and STDs.

There is no reason to want a masters degree because you won’t finish more than one semester of any college because you immaturity will cause you to never thrive. That is reality.

Any responsible parents whether TBMs, exmos, or nevermos would not continue to fund the destruction of their child’s life. After one semester you will have to pay for your own tuition but if by then you are an addict you won’t have the money.

The only women you will score with will probably carry life time diseases. The others will get pregnant and demand child support for life. Within weeks any respectable women will have your number and avoid you like the plague.

That is a dose of reality. Trying to copy your cousins life may not be all roses and happiness.

Perhaps your parents know your level of immaturity and are trying their best to save you from yourself.

IMO that's Mormon black-and-white thinking.

Plenty of college kids party -- probably most of them. When I was a college sophomore, I went out maybe five or six nights a week. I liked to drink beer and listen to music with my friends. At other points, my friends and I hit up every party we could find on a Friday or Saturday night. I still graduated on time with a "B" average. It was a B average as opposed to an A average because at the time, I never thought I'd go to grad school, so I wasn't interested in studying any harder than I did.

I think the secret is to know why you are at school, and what you want out of it. My friends who were aiming for the top grad schools each got into a good or even elite-level grad school. They knew what they needed to do academically and then they did it. This does take some level of maturity, but most kids who have the discipline to get into college in the first place can summon that up just fine.

There is also this thing called birth control. When used conscientiously, it is pretty darned effective. Again, it takes some level of maturity to stay out of trouble in that regard, but college kids do that every day. I did. My friends did. No one I knew had a child before they were married, wanted a child, and were ready for one.

I notice you responded negatively to anyone who has an opinion different than yours.

But you deserve an opinion too. Not black and white Mormonism. Reality.

There is a fine line between social drinking and those who become addicts because they were so controlled by religion, or families rebel and become addicts

There is lots of documentation by AA and it’s partner groups that pick up the pieces.

Everyone is allowed an opinion without you name calling and being disrespectful. Not allowing others opinions is black and white Mormonism.just saying.

I expressed a different opinion from yours, based on my own personal experience, and that of three family members. I was never rude nor disrespectful to you.

While it's true that some people become addicted to alcohol and other substances, most don't. While I support people who don't wish to drink, I don't like to see alcohol demonized. Whether you like it or not, young college-aged people like to drink, and most of them are able to enjoy themselves *and* get their studying done as well.

Hujo will likely be just fine as long as he approaches adult decisions (i.e. educational decisions, alcohol consumption, sex) in an adult manner. The nevermo college experience is not generally about nannying, it's about turning kids into functioning adults who are able to cope with adult choices.

I finished three degrees. I enjoy alcohol. It can be done.

Summer I had no problem with most of your post. You misunderstood what I was saying. If you left off the first sentence, you are expressing your opinion. Great. But starting your reply with a slam remark is what I had a problem with.

Sure many young people drink and experiment when off to college. Many don’t do it to excess. However my take on what Hugo wrote was she/he did not care about using college to learn but to party on.

As a young adult I never did try. Having addict parents set me straight. But that is not the norm. But kids in a structured religious household are not taught moderation. Their boundaries are so closed in once they break free they are susceptible to extreme choices.

That was my message. I also started my post saying it wouldn’t be an opinion she/he would like.

I knew a few Mormons when I graduated and they immediately went off the rails. My other friends did not. But not every person will have the same experience. Therefore different opinions should be spoken.

Hujo did mention that his GPA is ~3.8, which tells me he has the capacity to work hard and make good choices. He sounds ambitious, and my feeling is that he will be able to get the job done.

My college buddies and I used to have a saying, "Everything in moderation including moderation." Meaning that the occasional blowout won't do any harm.

The one great rule is to not get behind the wheel if you've had more than a drink or two. Hujo, choose a campus where everything is walkable and you should be fine.

I like that advice summer. You’re absolutely right that there’s no reason why I can’t party and do well academically, so thank you

wondering wrote:
>>If I understand your post, you want to go to a college and get drunk, high, and have wild unprotected sex.

I think sending kids on missions at that age is one possible benefit for SOME kids. They are tied up on a mission when they would be effing up their first year in college. When they get home, they are a little more mature and possibly more serious about education.

hujo, you could really screw up your life with those goals. I know you are not thrilled having Mormon rules but don't go wild. You can lose scholarships, knock up someone, and develop habits that could impact your life. Think hard about how you are going to be responsible and have fun at reasonable levels in college.

All four of our kids attended universities, graduated, and now have well-paying careers.

One of our daughters went to BYU and is now an HR Manager at a well-known company in a state that she loves and has always wanted to live in.

Three of them went to the U; One of them who also went on to complete nursing school at the U. She recently completed her NP and will be the manager at a clinic.
Our other daughter worked for a medical insurance company after graduating and did well there.
Our son graduated in the medical field also, and has a career in the area of Ophthalmology.

The U.S. is the land of opportunity to better your life if you really want to do so.

Real life is not about wasting time partying; if you want a good time, get your act together and get serious about an education, so that you don't have to have the fun experience of looking for any coins in the couch because you can't pay your rent.

Your children went into very good fields. A friend of mine retired from being an HR executive, and on her salary and retirement alone, she has been able to live a very good life including nice homes and frequent travel.

As a single school teacher, one of my biggest regrets has been my salary (the job is very satisfying work with ample time off, but the money has been miserable.) I wanted to travel a lot more than I did, and am hoping that I can make some of that happen in retirement. If I had to do it over again, I would have to give more thought to doing something more remunerative.

Another thing about college/higher learning: Typically you're not involved in an activity that day after day beats up your body.

Not that working in a 'trade' can't be noble, but the human body can wear out unless you are of a branch of the human race that is other than White.

Without a good education, you're going to have a very hard time finding a job that lets you sit down for 8 hours a day!!

I think that the trades are a great option for some kids, and its true that many families have gained a good income in that way. But my HVAC man told me about how he blew both knees out, and watching him work (hauling heavy items up and down hills,) I can see why.

In my fairly diverse golf group, it's the 'tradesmen' who have to have knee, hip, or/and shoulder surgeries. We have a cement guy who has had all three ... but he's White, so what the hell was he doing in that trade?

Halfway through BYU I figured out the church was falsity false false false.

For social life I went to SLC on the week ends. I also found plenty to do at BYU. We had a big underground and most of the time I felt like an undercover agent. That was good practice for real life---holding your cards to your chest like you are doing now. You are dying to show your hand. Think twice. Being a blatant partier is not something to advertise. It's not just Mormons who are unimpressed.

BYU girls were always giving me plates of brownies and special looks. I liked the brownies very much.

Next I worked for a while at the U. What a difference. People were there to learn. Saw a lot less partying there and more emphasis on education. The drink should be about the friendship, not the alcohol.

The best part of BYU for me was that on my own I dug down and studied and did it. I graduated with a 3.8 with a double major.
I put myself through school working 30 hours a week and sixty hours a week in the summer at a gas station that paid well. I also had scholarships. My parents paid for nothing--we were dirt poor. But I didn't want anything from them. Makes you feel obligated and I hate obligation.

The sooner you become independent the sooner you like yourself for real. Be wise. Some things you do can't be undone. Time does not heal everything.

Your parents will choose having you at the U over not having you at all. Play your cards with love.

A wise post.

When u say brownies, do u mean actual brownies that u eat or another kind?

I find it very interesting that there’s underground parties at BYU, I would probably find that fun.

Yes. Real yummy brownies. Back in the day before your grandfather was even born most likely, the girls at BYU were there mainly there to get their MRS Degree-- to get a husband, specifically a return missionary husband. Once they had carefully figured out that you had the holy garments on, (angel chaps), they would often bake you some cookies or brownies to warm you up and get you to notice them.

Being the way Mormons are, they were probably proving true the old saying, "The way to a man's heart is through his stomach." Someone I work with here in SoCal who has Mormon friends says they still go for the MRS Degree. In 2021! Hope it's not true.

I have no idea what goes on at BYU underground nowadays, but there is bound to be plenty. Suppression always breeds a "Speakeasy" lifestyle.

Make your grades your top priority. Because I said so.

Because it’s not named after a racist rapist.

With the subject line it looks like you need help creating a grammatically correct sentence. Maybe I was wrong about your real age.

@elderberry what’s wrong with it?

Oh and I’ll also schedule a zoom meeting with u to show u that I’m actually a teenager, just email me- hujo2alpha@gmail.com

An Article of English Grammar faithlessness.

I'm pass on Zoom. There are plenty of people benefiting from your posts for you here regardless of your age.

> I'm pass on Zoom. There are plenty of people
> benefiting from your posts for you here regardless
> of your age.

Agreed.

Eh, I make the occasional mistake myself. Overall I think Hujo's writing is quite decent for a high school sophomore who is writing casual English.

U is better than BYU?

Which has a higher Standard of English? He should go to the opposite.

Y is B better than U?

You have a good enough GPA to go to most colleges. I would suggest looking into a ROTC program so you will not be as dependent on your TBM parents.

Most schools offer ROTC programs. Seriously. My younger brother did it and never regretted it. He retired as a Lt Col in the Army and is now teaching school in Virginia.

Lazy as I am, I would have taken the ROTC route, except back in the 60s there was an actual shooting war going on and I had nothing against the Vietnamese, North or South.

Later, when I heard the stories about "Hey, GI, five dollah, I love you long time!" I sort of wondered if I hadn't missed the boat.

Obviously, I don't regret my decision, but here in the states, 'it' wound up costing lots more than 'five dollah'.