He also said, "This church is not a fairy tale," and that he and other leaders there did not get up this morning and say, uh, look, let's go play a big trick, a big joke on these young single adults. Jowels himself uttered these thoughts recently in a tear-strung-testimony in East Africa to a Young Single Adults group.

To my way of thinking these words betray what the church is very likely hearing. Hmm. Pretty interesting to me that Holland would be so revealing, sharing the term fairy tale and running the risk of exposing the term to youth who might have not heard or thought of it on their own.

Holland goes on to emphatically and emotionally say that Joseph and Hyrum Smith would not have gone to their grave for a fairy tale, for a cunningly devised fable!!! No sireee...

My reply is this....Joseph and Hyrum did not have that choice after they had been placed in the Carthage Jail. They had been caught and were prisoners for hells bells (and NOT martyrs). They could not leave anytime they chose to!

And, what's more, if Joseph Smith had REALLY wanted, he could have chosen to utter those words---"this church is not a fairy tale!" as he leapt out the jail window instead of the words he did utter, the Masonic cry for help.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2021 03:08AM by presleynfactsrock.

"Joseph and Hyrum Smith would not have gone to their grave for a fairy tale, for a cunningly devised fable"

Neither would David Koresh.

Neither would Jim Jones.

Neither would Marshall Applewhite.

Neither would Jehovah's Witnesses who (unlike mormons) were sent to Nazi concentration camps.

Neither would the 9/11 hijackers…

Jeffrey makes it sound like they jumped into a hail of bullets. The way I remember church history, it wasn’t exactly voluntary.

Why would he explicitly say “trust us, we would not lie, it’s not a fairy tale”? It comes across like a parent trying to reassure their kid that the Tooth Fairy is indeed real.

It’s as dumb as his boat analogy. Stay in the boat that’s taking on water and listing as the rats scurry for higher ground. That boat?

Church leaders are clueless bureaucrats surrounded by yes men. They are Living proof that the church doesn’t have a living prophet. The gospel works because of devotion to God and Christ. That’s it. Doctrine is beside the point, which they can’t admit because how would they justify all the busy work? The church could be good for young people. Okay, not really. The culty mindfuck is needed to sustain cash flow.

Jeff and his pals care about the youth but not enough to listen to them or try to understand them. You didn’t hear him soliciting suggestions or advice, did you?

The idea that that Joseph and Hyrum would not die for it if it were not true is one of the biggest logical fallacies the church uses. How many people have died in the name of other religions? The 9/11 hijackers sacrificed themselves for Islam. Almost 1,000 people died in the name of The People's Temple. 39 people died in the name of Heaven's Gate. David Koresh and 75 other people died in that name of the Branch Davidians. Dying for your religion is not virtuous, nor is it any indication of its truthfulness.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2021 03:25AM by alsd.

Holland’s attempt to inoculate his listeners against the obvious at least shows he knows what a lot of people are thinking. His tears also show he knows he does not have an effective rebuttal to what they are thinking, and it deeply frustrates him.

Good.

I think Hinckley’s claim that the Church rises or falls on the BoM was another veiled recognition of the truth, that the BoM is an obvious fabrication, and that only a bald-faced denial of the obvious will keep people from recognizing the obvious.

The main difference between the two men was that Hinckley appeared more frightened than frustrated, but both knew the house of cards was in peril.

presleynfactsrock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And, what's more, if Joseph Smith had REALLY
> wanted, he could have chosen to utter those
> words---"this church is not a fairy tale!"

Or he could've used his magical priesthood powers to paralyze the mob, fling open the doors, and walk out.

Or he could've called upon his personal buddies, God and Jesus, to smite the mob and make the criminal charges against the Prophet of the Restoration disappear.

presleynfactsrock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...he and other leaders there did not get up
> this morning and say, uh, look, let's go play a
> big trick, a big joke on these young single
> adults.

No, they wake up detached from reality and clueless how their actions (and inactions) affect innocent followers.

But it’s not a cult.

Abraham Lincoln would not have gone to the grave for the sake of being President.

I think Joseph simply lost control.

The church no longer teaches that Joseph and Hyrum were co presidents.

Joseph tried to turn control of the church over to Hyrum so he could concentrate on "translations" of scripture.

His empire nearly collapsed in Kirtland. It was near collapse again in Nauvoo.

Maybe the whole thing would have collapsed if he had not been killed.

At the least it may have reformed into something more mainstream.

Heartless Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe the whole thing would have collapsed if he
> had not been killed.

It could be argued that it did collapse, fracturing into different groups, and that BY built a new empire with one of the groups.

> It could be argued that it did
> collapse, fracturing into
> different groups, and that BY
> built a new empire with one of
> the groups.

YES!

Exactly the plan a loving ghawd would gift to his beloved children! This was the Plan from the very foundation of this world, much as all the surveys and market testing are, as well.

Oh, ye sinners who assail the mighty Jehovah on the premise that his church resembles nothing more than a crazed pinball machine with unlimited balls, and 80+-year-old geezers manning the celestial room flippers!

No! And while it must be taken on faith that ghawd knows EXACTLY what he's doing, dare you to take the chance that you could be wrong? Will you gamble these few terrestrial years against the breadth and scope of All Eternity?!?

Act now!! Send $10,000,000 to ghawd, c/o the mormon church, and receive in return The Second Anointing, guaranteeing you Eternal Life in VIP mormon heaven! Money-Back Guarantee if not satisfied in the Hereafter!

Would we lie?

Holland forgot to mention William Smith, the rebellious and 'insubordinate' younger brother. William knew what was going on. Pity he didn't speak out.

A pity indeed. William had to contend with the fact that Joseph was the favorite son of his dad, and in his mom's eyes, had the "prophetic" gift.

William was almost a ghost in the family dynamics.

He didn't speak out after he saw his brother Sam die after he spoke out. Sam was against polygamy and died by poison within a month of Joseph's death.

Joe Smith was on top of his own kingdom; true, he was in jail a few times, and met with violence and heartache, but he was invested too heavily in his con to "ride off into the sunset" and start up another religion in another state/country.

Briggy did that.

Joseph had left Nauvoo when he learned a mob was forming for his arrest. If I remember correctly he was headed west with a few of his favorite cronies, and Emma sent him a message calling him a coward to desert her and the church and he turned around and came back hoping his luck would get him loose again.

is he used it as an emotional tool so that everyone would think he was being moved by the "spirit."

An interesting way to look at his cry and could have been a real possibility. I saw him as being "scared" out of his wits and needing people to rescue him. Yet, a narcissist to the bone he was, so maybe there is a compromise here where he combined the two and also "used it as an emotional tool so that everyone would think he was being moved by the 'spirit'".

It's the "we-know-the-church-is-true-because-joe-was-willing-to-die-for-it" argument.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2021 07:03PM by Dave the Atheist.

Yes, this argument is able to be proposed because the church has infused it with omissions up the ying-yang, half-truths and outright lies. What average Amanda or Doug in the church knows that old sleazy Joe had one of his slaves smuggle a gun into the jail, allowing Joe get off 2 or 3 rounds before sailing out the window? And, how many know that a favorite beverage of his was also smuggled into the jail for his delight? He needed his wine.

Holland knows these things....I know he does, but because of all the perks he gets...power, prestige and lots of green stuff, he goes on with the nasty, mean game of spreading the "official" church yarn, not caring in the least about all the members, toddlers, youth, and elderly, he profoundly and deeply pulls the con on. He's a dangerous, selfish narcissist, plus a con artist just like ole selfish Joe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2021 05:03PM by presleynfactsrock.

Don’t lambs always go to the slaughter packing heat?

Someone should make a meme showing a lamb in the Carthage jail holding two guns a blazing as the mob runs up the stairs.

McTemple FAIRY Tails

Mormonism is Fabricated

MAKE Believe

Every bit of it

Hogwash

Love the "McTemple FAIRY Tails" title.

Fractured fairy tales

presleynfactsrock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
. . . he could have chosen to utter those
> words --- "this church is not a fairy tale!", as he
> leapt out the jail window, instead, he shouted out the ritual
freemasonic cry for help, imploring a mythical Hiram Abiff to have have mercy on the son of a mythical widow.

The Church-cult, from day one, has become an increasingly convoluted fairy tale.

What would be the point of belonging to a religion that didn't require faith? Religions don't ask you to bring slide rules to church! They ask you to bring faith!

If ghawd wanted us to have all the answers, he would have provided some means of obtaining such answers. But he didn't; James was just messin' with us when he wrote:

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

Cuz then James put it on you when ghawd couldn't come through:

"But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."


It's always your fault; never ghawd's fault . . .


You know how we can get all aghast at the knowledge that it hasn't been that long since 'bleeding' was thought to be an important tool in the medical provider's tool kit?

I think there's a good chance that one-day people will look back and ask, "Did they really inject people with attenuated versions of bacteria and virus in order to achieve some form of protection from that disease!? Oh, lord, what a bunch of maroons!!"

You should keep in mind that Holland is constantly trying to reaffirm his own testimony, he's talking to himself. The people bearing the strongest testimony are usually the people with the biggest doubts.

It’s all about psychology at the end of the day and you make an excellent point.

I think Holland feels stuck. He was president of BYU when I was there. In fact, I was on the janitorial staff and cleaned his office and got to talk to him several times. I can say he actually did care about the students attending the university.

I think like us some of these church leaders start to question the more they know. We all know how hard it is to get out; especially when you have lot’s of friends and family in the church or leaving affects your job.

Think how miserable you would be if you stopped believing as an apostle? The church makes those guys sign legal contracts. It might be very hard to get out much like Scientology at that level. I think Jeff is stuck between a rock and a hard place and it shows. If he was a sociopath he would be all smiles and happy but Holland isn’t happy. He’s miserable.

Yep. It sounds to me like he sees the lies, but can't accept them for what they are. So it's the rationalization: We didn't lie on purpose! But in words that allow him to keep his faith. Unlike Hinckley, I suspect Holland does believe, and wants to continue believing.

Appreciate your sharing your interaction with him when you were at BYU, and it warms my heart to hear that you felt he actually cared about the students. Plus, it is good to be reminded of the complications and intricacies in holding the position that he holds in the church.

>> He also said, "This church is not a fairy tale," and that he and other leaders there did not get up this morning and say, uh, look, let's go play a big trick, a big joke on these young single adults. Jowels himself uttered these thoughts recently in a tear-strung-testimony in East Africa to a Young Single Adults group.

Holland has now put the words "this church" and "fairy tale" together in the same sentence. Then in the next sentence, he uses the words, "big trick" and "big joke." He said those words. No one else did.

I am not deeply knowledgeable about the art of rhetoric, but it seems to me that he should not be doing that. You don't want your listeners making associations that you never intended.

This could be why they don’t want GAs recorded. Subconscious slip ups give them away.

If you take Holland's comments and look at all things he's said the Church is not (e.g. not a fairy tale), those are all the things he's personally thought the Church might be. saying the Church is not those things out loud is his way of quelling his own doubts. Remember the phrase about a testimony comes through the bearing of it? That's what Holland is doing. He must be dealing with massive cogdis.

I think you are right these words show "he must be dealing with massive cogdis", and "is his way of quelling his own doubts".