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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 02:11PM

LDS Inc just announced that rather than remove the murals from the Manti temple, they will build another temple up the road in Ephraim, UT. The Manti temple will retain the organization of separate rooms that participants move between during the ceremony. The live actor endowment will be replaced with a video version broadcast in each of the rooms. The original murals will remain in place.

Side note: here is the subhead from the SLTrib article this morning:
LDS Church leaders were impressed to “modify our earlier plans,” President Russell M. Nelson says in video message.

My pet peeve is that phrase, "were impressed". They really ought to say that church leaders decided..... Besides the annoying passive voice that Mormon leaders are so fond of in GC, the "were impressed" phrase is meant to sound like this wasn't their decision, they were inspired by The Lard™.

Spare me.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 02:39PM

Anything regarding temples falls under the first presidency. That means the prophet has full control over and decisions regarding temples. It’s pretty obvious Russell M Nelson wants to break away from the church’s past. Demanding the church no longer uses the word Mormon and even saying use of that word is the work of Satan shows the man views the work of previous prophets was less than inspired.

Nelson wanted to modernize and change the flow of the pioneer era temples to further erase the past but too many members complained about his plans and he’s given up on Manti.

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Posted by: Shinehah ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 02:42PM

Surely Russ' impression had nothing to do with outcry about those murals from historians and from the people of Manti and the surrounding area.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 02:47PM

The Lord works through mysterious opinion surveys.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 02:55PM

I had to laugh at this quote:

“As we have continued to seek the direction of the Lord on this matter,we have been impressed to modify our earlier plans for the Manti Utah Temple..."

"We have been impress to...", which being interpreted, means that public opinion was very strong, so rather than have our credibility threatened, we will release a revelation on the subject. People will say of us, “What we have just heard from our loving prophet is the mind and the will and the direction of the Lord Jesus Christ,..."

And, behold,...

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 03:15PM

The church has need of worldly praise.

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Posted by: outta the cult ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 04:46PM

So either (1) they hadn't been "impressed" to 86 the murals before, but decided to do so anyway in violation of god's will; or (2) they had been "impressed" before, but god changed his mind.

Or (3) they have no idea what they're doing, but can't ever admit a mistake.

What a bunch of buffoons.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 05:55PM

And then Pres. Nelson asked for a show of hands of those of the apostles who favored 'saving' the murals and a majority of the apostles present so signified.

"Please tell the press that ghawd has acted in his mysterious ways and the Murals are to be saved. It was heartwarming to feel the lord's presence and to receive his impressions.

We still await the day the lords does an impression of Henny Youngman, "...take my wives...Please!"

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 07:38PM

I have just been made aware that in the communities close to Manti, the outrage was high, focused, and virtually unanimous that Russell Milhous Nelson, P.S.&R., was completely off his cotton-pickin' rocker for his 'dump the murals!' revelation.

Such was the ruckus that Russ apparently gave ghawd another chance and this time ghawd came up with the correct decision.

So yay mormon ghawd, staying popular and trendy since matter how many attempts it takes!

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 07:52PM

Yes, I would imagine that the local members did not want the murals disturbed.

I think that the solution is a good one, and quite sensible.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 08:08PM

The Manti temple would make a great hotel. You could run Utah tours from it because the location is pretty close to the national parks.

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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 08:26PM

‘Cause they go no bids on eBay.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2021 08:34PM by kathleen.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 08:34PM

"Cynicism in womenfolk is hard for me to bear. I get worried 'bout what you all are up to in the kitchen, wheren't I can't see what yer up to!"

--Right thinking men

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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 08:36PM

We be up t’ no good.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 08:38PM

Ghawd: "It's all good."

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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 08:39PM

EOD, ya been acheckin’ yer email ?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 10:37PM

OMG! "I got mail!"

My tail is wagging!

Okay, okay, okay....

I'll take ten of the Super Sexy Essential Oils, two of the Wisdom Essential Oils and a dozen 'SuperCharger' enhancing Essential Oils!

I'll get back to you about joining your 'downstream' on Monday afternoon, after I arrange for the bank loan!

Again, thanks for letting me in on this sweet deal!!!

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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 12:26PM

Well throw in the free incense burner after your $600 minimum order. :)

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Posted by: gemini ( )
Date: May 01, 2021 09:22PM

I had to explain to my never-mo fiance' what this was all about.

Then one of the GA's (Rasband maybe) said something about how fast this decision er revelation had come to Nelson (those impressions based on push back from the members, but I digress) and he went on and on about how it was like "warp speed!" The next words out of my guys mouth had me laughing out loud.."warp speed"...he's got to be a republican!" hahahaha

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Posted by: Spintobear ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 11:57AM

I live in Ephraim, and my first thought with the new "Revelation" is how many historic houses will now be torn down to make room for this building. The church shows no respect for history or local peoples love of their community to save historic buildings. An entire two blocks was leveled and destroyed just for Snow College Institute and a separate building for College wards. And Snow College which is basically a church school owned by the state in name only continues to destroy and level historic buildings in the community.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 12:01PM

That must be really aggravating. Is there really a need for an additional temple in Ephraim, given that the Manti temple is not too far down the road? Is there really such a heavy demand on the Manti temple?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 12:56PM

Ah, yes, but think of what you're gaining!

A developer, with close ties to one or the other GA(s), will build a nice, upscale housing tract near or around the new temple and your little town will finally achieve the growth all of you wanna-be cosmopolitans have been begging for.

It'll be one more choice for those mormons seeking to return to Zion in time for the 2nd Coming.

Tender mercies!

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Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 12:19PM

members needed. They will all be bearing their testimonies about how wonderful and marvelous it all is.

What about the Salt Lake temple? God didn't like it as well? Or all the other temples they stripped bare?

I don't really care what they do to the temples other than history. Isn't Rusty dead yet?

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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 01:11PM

The Profit has determined that the net positive change to the bottom line is greater by keeping the existing temple AND building another one.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 01:14PM

Watching the Leadership of the church work these miracles is awe-inspiring! It's right up there with The Miracle of The Covid Curse.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 01:33PM

The weird thing is that it never seemed to occur to Rusty that the people in Manti (or even those members who like the older temples,) would be upset about this.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 01:49PM

Being ghawd's mouthpiece on earth, by mormon standards, must surely have taught him that whatever he came up with, was the gold standard. No 'worthy' mormon would ever think of telling the Prophet the back-flap of his one-piece garment was ajar!

So they misread their public, got push-back, and caved in! The ghawd of the eternities is a big puss...

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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 03:27PM

I’ve got some invisible thread that I’d be willing to make them new garmies with!

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 03:55PM

with every passing day it becomes more and more ridiculous

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Posted by: gordongrant ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 04:08PM

The about-face on the Manti temple murals by the leaders of the LDS church is a great example of how the church — over and over and over and over and over and over and over again — paints itself into untenable corners by claiming revelatory authority for administrative decisions. In the past, when these decisions created controversy, LDS leaders committed blasphemy—yes, blasphemy—in an effort to recover from their mistakes and save face. They have done it again with the latest dust-up over historic temple murals.

Beginning in 1856 with the Endowment House and for the next 100 years, the LDS church decorated rooms of its temples with murals [1]. This unique Mormon art form, a fine arts backdrop, created an impressive setting for the ceremony that taught the most important parts of Mormonism to its believing members. In the Manti temple, the world room mural by Minerva Teichert is especially treasured. It is a magnificent interpretation of world history. I went through the Manti temple only once, but even forty years later, I still recall how the majestic beauty of Teichert's mural filled the room and created a powerful sense of the divine.

The Salt Lake murals deserve special mention. They were the culmination of the 1890 Paris Arts Mission. As the Salt Lake temple neared completion, the LDS church sent its finest artists—John Hafen, Lorus Pratt, John Fairbanks, and John Clawson—to study under Albert Rigolot, a prominent French landscape artist at the Académie Julian in Paris, France. Upon their return in 1892, they painted the garden and world rooms of the temple with grand landscape murals in the Impressionist style. In 1915, Frithjof Weberg added the creation room mural to the temple. By any estimation, these impressive works surely qualified as masterpieces of Mormon art.

The tradition continued until 1956 when the church dedicated the last 20th century temple to feature murals in Los Angeles, California. A year earlier, the Swiss temple (1955) saw the introduction of a stationary, one room floor plan for the endowment ceremony. The room had plain walls. For better or worse, for nearly half a century, temple design prioritized streamlined efficiency over the decorative arts.

Under Hinckley, the LDS church changed course. After 45 years, it reintroduced endowment room murals with the Columbia River, WA temple (2001). The rebuilt Nauvoo temple (2002) was the apex of this new era. A throwback to the five-room progressive endowment floor plan, it featured striking murals in three of the instruction rooms. It is beautiful, impressive, and awe inspiring — a delight to see. In addition to Nauvoo, most of the fifty-some temples that followed had either a one or two-room format with beautiful murals adorning the walls.

Soon after Nelson became president, murals disappeared from newly completed temples with no comment or explanation. Since Nelson’s tenure began in January 2018, the LDS church has dedicated seven new temples. As of May, 2021, only three (Haiti, Lisbon, and Rome) feature endowment rooms decorated with fine art. In fact, Haiti and Lisbon only have large, framed paintings on the endowment room walls, not murals per se. The temple in Rome, announced in 2008 and dedicated in March 2018, has stunning large scale murals. Due the timing of its announcement, the interior decoration of the Rome temple was obviously planned and finalized well before Nelson assumed leadership of the church.

If one drew a tentative conclusion that Nelson doesn’t place a high priority on temple murals, it was confirmed with the announcement that the historic and much-loved murals in Salt Lake and Manti were to be removed. In the case of Salt Lake, early renderings of the remodeling indicated the rooms with murals would be preserved even though the temple would change to a two-room progressive format. I am no longer a Mormon, but even so, I was excited by the renderings of the Salt Lake renovation. I was anticipating returning to the Salt Lake temple during the planned open house before its re-dedication to see it. The temple no longer holds any sacred meaning for me, but I would have been uplifted by the renewal of a monument to the dedicated people who, at great personal sacrifice, paid for, built, and decorated a glorious space in which to worship.
Then came the announcement—after the fact—that the Salt Lake murals had been destroyed and Manti would follow suit. Quite understandably, the removal of these historic, iconic works of art brought an outcry, even from faithful members of the church who usually accept, without question, whatever controversial policy du jour the leaders of the church serve up.

Now, we are told the brethren have been inspired — “impressed” — to preserve the Manti murals. In other words, rather than admit that church leaders bowed to popular sentiment and would preserve the Manti murals out of respect for the wishes of the members, we are told an indecisive Mormon god has changed his mind about the Manti murals.

There is a pattern here—an obvious and ridiculous one. Looking back over Mormon history, we see it repeated over and over. Notable examples are the reversal of the polygamy doctrine (1890); the reversal of black exclusion from the priesthood (1978); and the withholding of blessing, baptism, and confirmation for children of GLBTQ parents (2015). In each case, the LDS church folded and reversed itself on an unpopular policy in response to public pressure. However, it didn’t admit the reversals came because of flawed decisions, born of human frailty and necessitated by expediency to escape a conundrum of its own making. Rather, in each instance the LDS leaders attributed the reversal to an uncertain and fickle-minded God. Does anyone really believe this is how revelation works?

The Manti murals may survive, but in what appears to be another face-saving move, a costly new temple will be constructed in sparsely populated Sanpete County (est. population, 31,000 in 2019), less than 25 miles from Manti, a temple which is known to be under-staffed with volunteers and poorly attended by temple-going Latter-day Saints.

In Mormonism, blasphemy is sacrilegious thought, speech or action that belittles God (2). By its own definition, blaming God for their own mistakes and poor decisions is indeed blasphemy on the part of Mormonism's top leaders. Blasphemy and tens of millions of dollars for a temple that appears to be unneeded. That’s a high price to pay for a single administrative decision.

As a former member of the church, I mourn not only what appears to be the end of a unique art form, but especially the wholesale destruction of great works of art. Though the foolish games of LDS church leaders no longer impact me directly, they aren’t fooling me. I also suspect they aren’t fooling most active members of the church. They most certainly aren’t fooling their God. They are, in fact, fooling only themselves. Faithful members of the LDS church deserve so much better than what their leaders give them.


(1) The St. George temple was originally built on the model of the Kirtland temple with two main assembly rooms. Three decorated endowment rooms were added during a 1938 renovation.

(2) Gary L. Browning, “Blasphemy,” Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Daniel H. Ludlow, editor, Volume 1, p. 127. New York, NY: Macmillan Publishing Company. 1992.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2021 01:30AM by gordongrant.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 04:12PM

I would rather have murals by Joaquin Alberto Vargas y Chávez.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 04:34PM

My choice for a temple muralist: Bill Watterson.

His dinosaurs were brilliant!

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 04:39PM

Wooosh ! *LOL*

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 04:42PM

Okay, you got me!!

I made an ass of myself by assuming you were serious...

Well done!

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 04:45PM

I am satan

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Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 08:07PM

Nelson has a soft spot for the old "thunder lizards." Way back when he was in medical school they used to practice on velociraptors.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: May 02, 2021 08:22PM

In the end, all assets belong to Nelson. It's his game and he's gonna play it how he wants to.

As far as Nelson is concerned, the church "documented" the art work before it was destroyed. If you don't have a sense of nostalgia, an ounce of sentiment or the ability to empathize with others, then you have a cold hearted snake.

I think Nelson can still win the Manti debacle.

It has been publicly acknowledged that the murals should stay.

What might happen should there be a fire, an accident during the remodeling or the discovery of an unfortunate structural problem which "destroys" the art work?

Sure, some members might be upset, but what can they really do as members in good standing?

I am making a prediction that this isn't over yet. There is still time for an "accident" or fire or a misunderstanding with a contractor to cause unrepairable damage.

Heart surgeons believe that they are never wrong.

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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: May 03, 2021 02:23PM

Elder Berry, thank you for this link. This temple demonstrates the true priorities of mormonism.

From the article:

"But the building is stunning, all the same, with floors built of Champagne gold limestone from Mexico; accent stones made of Kashmir gold granite from India and Inca gold limestone from Pakistan."

Are there no hungry children in the world?

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 03, 2021 02:29PM

kathleen Wrote:
> Are there no hungry children in the world?

They don't like to include actual peoples in their "lone and dreary" wilderness Adam and Eve got ditched in when the angels evicted them. It doesn't help their bottom line. No suffering in their temples. All clean and white.

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Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: May 03, 2021 06:35PM

"They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries ...."

(II Nephi 28:13)

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 05, 2021 11:09AM

Yes, their evolution is complete. From a small primitivist Jesus believing folk magic group in Upstate New York that moved to Illinois growing in leaps and bounds to an international corporation with a huge market cap in The Western United States slowly, very slowly shrinking down membership but attempting to retain money and power.

A temple in Rome. Doesn't get more fine sanctuaries than that.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: May 03, 2021 03:19PM

"Until then, however, outsiders have a rare opportunity to look inside a faith with somewhat of a reputation for secrecy.

Yet according to William Walker, executive director of the Church’s temple department, “It’s not a secret matter; it’s a matter of being sacred… We believe this is God’s house, that God’s Spirit resides there."

Certainly explains why church financial records are so sacred. God obviously lives in the church's bank accounts and vaults.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: May 04, 2021 04:04AM

The temple is about control. Notice how the church has ratcheted up the pressure to have a temple recommend. The youth are even pressured now. What the church gets from the temples is tithing revenue and control over the members. It’s exploitation through peer and family pressure.

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: May 04, 2021 04:55AM

Yes, I totally agree that temples are ALL about control of "tithing revenue and control of its members", certainly not about no silly murals.

I also agree with the conclusion that "It's exploitation through peer and family pressure".

My first temple experience was in the Salt Lake Temple (no other temples for moi), where the artistically distinct murals grabbed and held my attention much more than the terrible acting that was occurring. It saddens me that this is changing as I, too, hoped to steal a glimpse of them one more time at the up-coming temple open house.

Yes, the murals were one of the calming, up-lifting-too-few- aspects of the temple experience in my opinion. However, the gutting of my own heart and bowels, required back in the dinosaur year of 1965 when I married, served to demolish, in a terrifying, ugly way, this calming mural affect.

Plus, the murals did not have the siren-effect of drawing me back and back again into this extreme weird world of Mormonism. My husband and I did not spend our "date nights" viewing this strange interior.

As a matter of fact, both of us stayed away on purpose, only attending a few more times.

Puleeze push ahead, Rusty! Wittle and wittle down the temple-drawing-cards which bind and guilt and shame members. I vote in favor and am certainly counting on you to make my dream come true of seeing the dazzling light of day revealed and rushed to my TBM ensnared family members.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2021 05:08AM by presleynfactsrock.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 04, 2021 05:19AM

Hey! I went thru the SL temple in early June of 1965!!!

Were you wearing a white veil and a green apron?

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Posted by: Lisa von und zu Liechtenstein ( )
Date: May 04, 2021 08:11PM

Maybe I am dumb, but what is the correlation between keeping the murals in Manti and the new temple in Ephraim?

Will the Manti Temple become a Pioneer Museum, causing the need for a new temple in the area? Is that the idea?

Why would keeping the murals stop Manti from remaining a functioning temple?

Or is building a new temple just another fun way to burn a few more million dollars?

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: May 04, 2021 08:39PM

The Manti temple is an old style temple. It has the live endowment ceremony with people moving from room to room - which also requires changing floors.

according to the church, many of the patrons are old and have trouble moving from room to room and climbing stairs. Therefore, they were going to remodel it to replace the live ceremony with the film, and keep eliminate interroom movement. They claimed that would require removal of the murals.

The current revision of the plan is to not remodel the Manti temple so that it will still require changing rooms (but will still have the film not live actors). That will allow the murals to remain.

They will then build a new temple in Ephraim that won't require going from room to room.

At least that is the official explanation from TSCC>

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Posted by: Lisa von und zu Liechtenstein ( )
Date: May 04, 2021 08:59PM

Oh, OK... So they are building a whole new temple only to accommodate a few elderly members of the area who have a hard time climbing stairs in the Manti Temple.

That may sound noble and thoughtful, but in reality it only shows that LDS Inc. has money to burn.

Maybe the Lard could use that money to help the living, and simply tell elderly members to spend time with grandkids instead of performing Masonic rituals for dead people.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: May 04, 2021 11:45PM

The church announced that the Manti temple will close around Oct 1st or....ish. I found Nelson's words to be intriguing in the PR video. While he wasn't visibly angry, I think he is sulking; if not stunned that church members are not "thrilled" that the church wants to spend $$$ to modernize an old temple and bring it up to current church standards (an ongoing goal that the LDS buildings and facilities continually push for their tangible assets).

What I think the church is going to do is to wait a couple of months. They plan to let all the dust settle for attempting to remove the murals and then the temple will be shuttered with little warning so Nelson's renovation teams can move in. I think this has been very embarrassing for the light pen Mr. Revelation. Prophets aren't accustomed to members openly speaking ill of them and criticizing church leadership.

Like BY who carried grudges against those who opposed him, I don't think Nelson will neither forgive nor forget the saints of Manti rising against him in opposition. I am predicting a lengthy closure that will probably match the slow progress of the building of the new temple in Ephraim. I think Nelson will not care if faithful members have to travel to Payson??? temple while their temple is rebuilt.

I also think that when both temples are built/rebuilt that the Manti temple will become a limited operation by invitation only. The temple for the area will be the Ephraim temple, not Manti.

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Posted by: Gordon Grant ( )
Date: May 05, 2021 05:09AM

>”Like BY who carried grudges against those who opposed him, I don't think Nelson will neither forgive nor forget the saints of Manti rising against him in opposition. I am predicting a lengthy closure that will probably match the slow progress of the building of the new temple in Ephraim. I also think that when both temples are built/rebuilt that the Manti temple will become a limited operation by invitation only. The temple for the area will be the Ephraim temple, not Manti.”

I think your scenario is extremely like to be true. However, I t’s not Nelson’s’s God whose Pissed off here...

“The LORD is a jealous and vengeful God; the LORD is vengeful and strong in wrath. The LORD is vengeful against his foes; he rages against his enemies.” (Nahum 1:2)

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