Everyone,

There's been too much bickering going on. I've asked that our posters not argue in a petty fashion with each other or make personal attacks, and yet we've been getting a lot of that lately. Please stop. Definitely do not reply to a personal attack with more personal attacks; the best thing to do is to ignore the attack and use the report feature to point out the issue to the moderation team.

Let me also point out what a personal attack is, for those who don't appear to know:

1. Personal attack: "You're stupid."
2. Not a personal attack: "What you said is incorrect."

Also, this board is not going to host conspiracy theories about Covid, vaccines, Trump or politics in general. Let me lay out some facts:

1. The Covid-19 virus is real, far deadlier than the seasonal flu and is something that everyone should avoid. Wearing masks helps cut down its transmission considerably. There is currently no evidence that the virus was engineered or that it escaped from a laboratory.
2. Approved vaccines work well and any risks they entail are far smaller than catching the diseases that they were created to prevent. If you have concerns about your personal health situation, please consult with your doctor instead of just reading stuff on the internet.
3. Joe Biden won the 2020 presidential election fair and square. Trump lost. There is no evidence of election fraud significant enough to have changed any of the results.

If you have problems with any of the above, you are entitled to your opinions but please do not share them here.

Mormonism seems to foster conspiracy thinking, and conspiracy theories also bubble up in other segments of society. One of the beautiful things about leaving a controlling group is that we can free our minds from those who lie to us and try to alter reality for their own purposes. Science, sincere and thorough investigation and rational thinking go along way toward cutting through falsehoods.

Reality is not a matter of opinion. As the saying goes, you're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. It doesn't matter how deeply held your opinions are, if you can't back them up with verifiable facts then at least admit that when you share your opinions with others.

And most of all, please be kind to each other. Really. Actual human beings with feelings are going to read what you write and be affected by your tone. Please remember your audience and think before you click the post button.

Thanks,

CZ (admin)

Concrete Zipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormonism seems to foster conspiracy thinking
===============================

And/or folks that are inclined to conspiracy belief, are attracted to Mormonism.
Like socks, man -- gotta match 'em up.

It's a funny thing, when you step back and look at it ;-)

They are more natural than "rational" people would like to think they are because they are a part of human nature.

"Conspiracy theories can also paradoxically be emotionally reassuring. They provide truthful-sounding explanations for events that otherwise seem inexplicable, random or capricious, and often make your political opponents look bad. They can also give believers a pleasing sense of superiority because they – and sometimes they alone – have seen through the lies and cover-ups to reveal the “truth”."

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/definition/conspiracy-theories/#ixzz6uZu5gnUr

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> "Conspiracy theories can also paradoxically be
> emotionally reassuring.
===============================

Of course!

But would say nothing paradoxical about it.

Beliefs of any kind are reassuring e.g. religion.
The anxiety and anger comes of being perpetually on guard and fighting a persistently intrusive infiltrating reality which contradicts the Belief, or at least challenges it. Because their entire universe is shaken up then.

To those needing to navigate by Belief:
Have Beliefs! That's fine!
Just don't be enraged at unbelievers.

People need to stop charging for beliefs. It kinda makes them taxes and then everyone wants everyone else to pony up.

Hey Zip
I totally agree with you
I joined this forum because it was non-judgemental
There is no reason to attack another member because you disagree with them
We all have different experiences,beliefs,and prejudices.
keep up the good work administering this site

CZ:

"And most of all, please be kind to each other. Really. Actual human beings with feelings are going to read what you write and be affected by your tone. Please remember your audience and think before you click the post button."

-----

Be Kind. Be Calm. Be Safe.

These are the words our public health officer here in BC uses after every press conference (held daily at the beginning of the pandemic and now it's about 3x/week).

I note that "Be Kind" comes first. I like that.

It doesn't matter how many times now we've heard that little slogan. It still resonates and is simple and memorable.

I think it incorporates all the best of what we can do to interact with others in a pleasant way.

I appreciate that it's difficult, especially when we have strong opinions in the realms that readily lend themselves to disagreement. Politics and Religion spring to mind.

It's easy to overlook the fact that there's a person behind the post. I try to imagine being face-to-face with them and that helps curb my occasional impulse to figuratively pound their head. But in reality, I wouldn't want to hurt somebody's feelings, or worse, even if it's "only" cyberspace.

It helps to think that most here have been adversely affected in some way by Mormonism, or similar groups. So we have that at least in common.

Be Kind. I like that. Thanks CZ for being that sort of administrator.

I had the following verbiage from a CZ post made into a white yarn on black velvet needlepoint sampler. His words comfort me. These words come from a post CZ authored about four weeks ago:


"I have asked you before to stop posting on topics that you keep bringing up repeatedly. Here's what I wrote you in an e-mail almost two years ago:

"I'd also like to ask you to drop some of the topics that you've been posting about a lot. This would include [XXXX] and [YYYY]. These topics have been beaten to death and do nothing more than waste bandwidth at this point."

I will grant that the whole atheist/theist definition thing was not one of those two topics I explicitly called out, but my request was clearly more general.

Let me make things explicit for you now: Please stop bringing up the same topics over and over again. If you feel a need to do that, please do it somewhere else."



How beautiful the words, "If you feel a need to do that, please do it somewhere else." I get a thrill every time I read them!


Now some of you may think that my next question is petty and 'chicken shit', but I'll try to live with it:

Hey, The Cat, how much have you contributed to RfM in the past, say..., five months? Anyone who wants to know how much I've contributed, it's none of your business, but I'll tell you if you email me.

Hi Concrete Zipper,

Your requests are reasonable and you are the Administrator here. But there seems to be some irony in some of your statements that are very relevant to issues of dysfunction that we find often in Mormonism and in what you have just expressed here. I left the right-arrow to the left of what you wrote and put a few questions below a few of your statements. Perhaps you can help to clarify.

> Let me lay out some facts:
>
> 1. The Covid-19 virus is real, far deadlier than
> the seasonal flu and is something that everyone
> should avoid. Wearing masks helps cut down its
> transmission considerably. There is currently no
> evidence that the virus was engineered or that it
> escaped from a laboratory.
> 2. Approved vaccines work well and any risks they
> entail are far smaller than catching the diseases
> that they were created to prevent. If you have
> concerns about your personal health situation,
> please consult with your doctor instead of just
> reading stuff on the internet.
> 3. Joe Biden won the 2020 presidential election
> fair and square. Trump lost. There is no evidence
> of election fraud significant enough to have
> changed any of the results.
>
> If you have problems with any of the above, you
> are entitled to your opinions but please do not
> share them here.

Although the above are topics that go outside of the purposes of this board, you choose to tell us what you believe the truth of them is regardless, while asking us not to express our own opinions on the same topics as you have just done yourself. I agree with some of your so-called "facts" and disagree with others. Are these three points the official beliefs of RFM, or are they just your own opinions (or call them facts if you need to) which topics you forbid our opinions on while affording yourself that exclusive luxury? Furthermore, you tell us that we can believe what we want to believe as long as we do not express those beliefs to others here. Church courts have been held for people who's Bishops said exactly the same thing to them, "...believe as you want but don't express those beliefs to others".

> One of the beautiful things
> about leaving a controlling group is that we can
> free our minds from those who lie to us and try to
> alter reality for their own purposes. Science,
> sincere and thorough investigation and rational
> thinking go along way toward cutting through
> falsehoods.

I totally get your right to administer this board subjectively. I don't challenge that. At the same time, we can't say that RFM is not a controlling group. I respect your opinions. But you apparently do not respect the opinions of some others here on this board. If you did, you would have simply put an end to the discussion on these topics without giving us your opinion (or facts if you need to call all of them facts) and then forbidding us to discuss those topics any further as you yourself have started and told us where it ends (with your beliefs/facts winning). The cult that I left does this all of the time. Where you crossed the line wasn't by forbidding a discussion on these "off-topic" issues, but by trying to use your position of authority in this forum to make your beliefs the winning position, whether or not we might have facts that you may not have and thus, we arrive at different conclusions than you do, through objective science. You should have stayed neutral or not commented at all on those topics other than to forbid them from discussion as not being on-topic.

> Reality is not a matter of opinion. As the saying
> goes, you're entitled to your own opinions but not
> your own facts. It doesn't matter how deeply held
> your opinions are, if you can't back them up with
> verifiable facts then at least admit that when you
> share your opinions with others.

If you must take a position yourself (as you have just done), then please give us the supporting facts so that we can debate them. Otherwise, please don't take the positions that you took in points one through three, above and claim that they are facts. I have some different facts about parts of those three points if you want to see them. The whole issue is more complex than what you see them as. In Mormonism, too often the easy feel-good answer usually wins. So I respectfully disagree with you on some of what you claim are facts. You can either take this issue with a dismissive attitude as most Mormons do when others' thoughts deviate from the official narrative, or at least consider the possibility that I might be correct and leave it at that. I really hope to see here that RFM is helping and not harming our thought processes. Too many Mormons have lost the ability to think critically.

>
> And most of all, please be kind to each other.
> Really. Actual human beings with feelings are
> going to read what you write and be affected by
> your tone. Please remember your audience and think
> before you click the post button.
>
> Thanks,
>
> CZ (admin)

I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph. We should be kind to eachother.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2021 02:53PM by azsteve.

> If you must take a position yourself
> (as you have just done), then please
> give us the supporting facts so that
> we can debate them.


We all agree that it is his ball and his playground.

What you are asking for ignores this reality, and thus you come across as delusional.

I understand that your ox has been gored (Al Gored), but I submit to you that you're going to have to learn to live with it.

At least CZ is not prone to proselytizing his views; you can't say the same thing, and it seems to bug you.

Yes, someone is closer to the truth, but Truth is malleable and life is short. If you find a road you think leads to truth, take it! But as you're on that road, don't try to tell the rest of us that we have to follow you.

If you find Truth, I bet that one of the things you'll note is that people can't be dragged to the point you're at; they have to WANT to go there. Don't fall into the trap The Cat has, believing as he seems to that he is in a superior position and that we should all be grateful that he wants to share the views his superiority to us gives him.

The "truths" that CZ listed are simply a position in time and place; we don't have to believe them, we just have to tolerate them as we discourse on things OTHER than those points.

At least that's my take on the variegated nature of being exmormon.

I'm not attempting to answer for CZ (nor am I qualified or assigned to do so). I just want to say, azsteve, thank you for stating your dissenting opinions clearly and respectfully.

But. CZ is not just the board Administrator but also the Owner (iirc Eric passed the torch to CZ a few years ago). As such, surely he has the official capacity to call the shots as to what the board is about and how it's run.

In other scenarios, I may agree with some of your points, while disagreeing with some of your conclusions. But CZ, Board Owner and Administrator, surely has the right and capacity to state the purpose of the board and determine the content of its posts and the posting guidelines he wishes to implement.

He's not, as you seem to suggest, some random guy imposing his own viewpoint on everyone and then refusing them the right to respond. He's trying, it seems to me, to keep RfM running on course, to first and foremost, help people who have exited Mormonism. Lately, the discussion has veered further apart from that core purpose. I, for one, appreciate the latitude we have been given. But that can't be allowed to swamp the core purpose of RfM, in content and tone. Argumentative exchanges easily occur when some hot button issues are raised. They can soon become rancorous and easily dominate the board. I try to remember often the timid first-timer who quietly peeks in, needing help, and I hope they see and experience the benefits of RfM. It's harder if the place is in an uproar because we're fighting over political and religious issues (especially if posters don't relate their viewpoints and comments to Mormonism, as we are asked to do).

It's no accident that the first word in the board's name is Recovery. I've always noted that Eric's and CZ's chief focus and purpose is encompassed in that word. It's hard to be a newbie and break in on a place where it seems everybody knows everybody else but nobody knows them. Even worse if nobody hears them. That defeats the entire purpose of RfM's very existence.

I do think I understand some of your points, azsteve, about what is or is not a fact vs an opinion re the issues CZ references. But it's not a case, as you assert, of CZ taking an opportunity to post his own facts while shutting down your ability to debate them. I'll leave it to CZ to address that if he wishes. To me, it's merely a case of an owner/administrator stating the guidelines for using his site. Basically, it's a matter of remembering the main topic and posting within the few rules that are needed to corral the motley crew that hangs out here. Some of the emphasis has to remain on the silent readers and nervous newcomers so that they feel welcome and may eventually dive in and share their own stories.

It's a tall order. I think we're lucky that RfM exists and has survived this long. I've long thought, and often said, that really, absolutely **everything** can be related to Mormonism somehow (and other similar groups). That's the tricky balance here - how to make a seemingly OT subject on topic rather than going way off on tangents that cause contention and are unhelpful to participants and readers alike, including and especially, newbies, who are timid enough to start with, never mind having to dive into a quarrelsome mob rather than a welcoming group. That is one big reason, I figure, why politics has always been a topic that is strongly discouraged here, if not outright disallowed. As politics is so all-consuming these days it's hard to avoid those topics. But remembering CZ's injunction to be kind to each other goes a long way to explaining why we're asked to stay on topic most often and only occasionally venture into OT territory and also to try and avoid arguing with each other.

Be welcoming. Be kind. I think that sums up how RfM wants to be, for the benefit of new posters as well as us oldtimers, because in the end we've got at least one thing in common: the Mormon Church (or similar groups) and discussing that, after all, is the main purpose of being for this board.

I totally agree with you Nightingale on who should own and control this board. It is CZ and not me. He puts a lot of selfless effort in to it and I am grateful that he makes use of this board possible. So there is no challenge from me on these issues of ownership and control nor on what he is trying to accomplish. I am not even challenging the actual rules. I said in my previous post that "we can not say that RFM is not a controlling group". As of today, it is a controlling group. So while CZ is within every right to say what he said, I disagree that he is not acting with some significant level of dysfunction, likely retained from his days in a cult. And we all do that here. No harm, no foul. We are all guilty of doing this at times. We need to get better at not doing that, myself included.

If we all operate on the assumption that board ownership gives special privileges when wearing the board-user hat (not strictly board admin functions) but to present political positions as fact while telling others not to do the same, then we have a conflict of thought processes that needs to be recognized and rectified if we don't want to think as a cult ourselves here on this board.

So in recognition that CZ does act selflessly and is a good person, let's also consider that he is also an owner who is absolutely entitled here. As I said, no challenge to that.

Along those lines, I know a real Prophet, Seer and Revelator (President Nelson). In addition to always being correct because God literally talks to him, he is the legal owner of the corporation of the President. He literally has the legal right to censor the speech of all of the members of his organization. Nelson talks about what he wants to talk about just as CZ does here. Anyone who disagrees with Nelson is ostracised. How fair is that? Those who disagree with Nelson are not allowed to be critical of what he says if they want to maintain their membership. So Nelson could even sanction the use of Pornography for himself if he wanted to, while telling everyone else that it's a sin. He sets the rules and is not necessarily bound by them himself. With hundreds of billions of dollars on the line, he tries not to be so obvious.

I am not saying that CZ is as bad as President Nelson is. CZ is a good person... who made the mistake of holding a double standard because he is the owner and can get away with it. He absolutely gets to set the rules here. But if he breaks his own rules and doesn't see a problem with doing that, his actions are very hypocritical. If we all go with that and excuse the dysfunctional behavior because he is the owner or even contributes more than anyone else, we create special classes of people and let them do the thinking for us. Does this behavior sound familiar?

Thank you CZ for your selfless work here. I feel like I would be doing you a dis-service not to point out such an obvious conflict. I am on the board of a non-profit myself. If I do my job there correctly, most people who know of me there will never know most of my political opinions or which party I belong to. I can pull that off in the short bursts of time needed to meet that standard there for the most part. I was taught to do that years ago as a volunteer for the Red Cross. Administrative roles really require objectivity. The Mormon cult has no concept of that. As a board user with no administrative functions here myself, I don't carry that same burden here. Leaders carry added burdens and have more control and authority.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2021 09:02PM by azsteve.

Thank you, CZ!

Thanks for being the voice of reason, CZ. And thanks to Nightingale for "I note that "Be Kind" comes first. I like that."

I like that too :-)

Thanks for your comment Tom. You made me cry, ha.

I'm a bit teary altogether these days with a whole bunch of challenging issues lately that negatively impact life all at the same time. One at once, OK. All together, not so much.

Then I just received an urgent call to help a refugee mom with a sick baby and no food. I don't know how that could happen here (why isn't she plugged in to resources) but we can dive in and change that.

There's always a reminder that things could be worse (and often are for the majority of humankind, especially these days). That's my motto lately, when my car breaks down, my TV's on the blink, I catch a stupid cold and feel quite ill all at the same time and oh yeah, there's a pandemic that restricts life in general - "it could always be worse". That does actually brighten me up a bit. And frequently it proves itself to be true, unfortunately. I remember an old comic strip called There Oughtta Be a Law. I adopted that phrase for a long time, using it whenever something went wrong. As in there oughtta be a law against that (whatever "that"is).

I should reclaim it in these challenging days. When I woke up today with a severe crick in my neck and note I've been in pain and listing to one side all day it would help to say there oughtta be a law (against cricks). It makes me laugh so that helps.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2021 03:58PM by Nightingale.

I am sorry for all that you've been dealing with in your life....and I am (in spirit) with you, Nightingale!

I hope all the various pressures you are going through begin lifting very, very soon.

Yes, NG. It's good to remember that most of our woes are "first world problems" and nowhere near as severe as what most people face. But that doesn't lessen the sting of our challenges and the pain they can cause.

You're the best. I'm grateful for your presence and your wisdom.

Thank you Tevai and Lot's wife. Your words are balm on this crazy day.

First world for sure LW. I'm grousing about a (literal) pain in my neck. Meanwhile I hear about this lady nearby whose baby needs surgery, she herself is ill and they have no food. How could that happen here? Not to mention the horrors around the world we see on every newscast. Famine, destruction, war and pestilence. It never ends. This is how I came to believe in Armageddon in the first place. And things only get worse.

The "good news" is that I forgot how to spell Armageddon and had to look it up. That's progress! And I put "good news" in quotes as that's what JWs call their message of extinction and a gigantic re-do when believers end up in Paradise and everybody else dies.

Meanwhile, I am heading out with my sore neck to forage for dinner. That's as exciting as it gets these days.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2021 04:31PM by Nightingale.

>> It's good to remember that most of our woes are "first world problems" and nowhere near as severe as what most people face.

When I hear of someone, or some people who are experiencing genuine tragedy, it sure goes a long way towards putting my own piffling problems into perspective.

I have a friend whose family barely escaped acute political changes in the third world. They migrated to the West and set up shop, working hard and educating their kids as immigrants are wont to do. Those kids are now all engineers, doctors, and an entrepreneur.

Fast forward fifteen or twenty years and the mother, a teacher, learned of eating disorders. She was appalled that people would "do that to themselves," something she had never heard of in her homeland. A decisive and determined woman, she also went to a wealthy compatriot who does philanthropy and persuaded her to expand funding for teenagers' mental health. My friend's mother didn't understand the problem, which seems to be much more prevalent in the first world than the third, but she knew it was horrifically dangerous and hence must be combated.

The point being that yes, a lot of our concerns are definitely rich people problems. But that does not make them any less serious for the teenagers, or adults, that suffer from them. Pain is a subjective thing, cripplingly real even for the otherwise very fortunate.

exmos will behave ~



you will see a change OPie ~



no really we sware ~

Thank you, CZ!!

Well said! Thanks for posting this message.

While were at it: Why isn't there anything good on TV?

Hundreds of channels and nothing to watch! :D

It hasn’t been the same since “Conspiracy Theory with Jesse Ventura” ended.

Maybe this forum could have an off-topic forum.

Let all the free thinkers enter at their own risk.

Perfect place for all those threads about who is the biggest a-hole.

My perception is that most participants at RFM have recovered and this is their personal blog for gardening, book reviews, my dog just had puppies, my cat still loves me and my train ran away from me.

How about this -

Bickering and ad hominems are acceptable, but ONLY in haiku format.

For example:

Opening salvo -

"You wouldn't know truth
If it bit you on the ass
And gave you rabies"

Riposte -

"You are a weasel
And a silly chowderhead
So shut the f*** up"

       Haiku is a kick

           in the ass, which is what you

              really need right now.

exmo bickering ~



in haiku will be no help ~



plz don't be obtuse ~

There once was a zill from Tasmania....

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There once was a zill from Tasmania....

Who suffered from bibliomania
He had a good time
When speaking in rhyme
But then he moved to Lithuania

AMEN TO ALL THAT AND WELL SPOKEN

I can provide you a link to the British Medical Journal, one of two premier mainstream medical publications in the UK discussing the actual efficacy of these shots. Some of them are under investigation by Canadian, Australian and European Union government medical bodies. How many of these serious outlets does one need to mention to prove the concerns aren't all "conspiracy theories"? The real conspiracy is that we are not allowed to discuss these matters in any mainstream arena, even when they come from major governments and mainstream medicine.

This *is* in the public interest. Just going by one sided press releases are neither scientific nor democratic.

Anon just now Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The real conspiracy is that we are not allowed to
> discuss these matters in any mainstream arena,
> even when they come from major governments and
> mainstream medicine.

That's a different issue. Here the issue that is foremost is to maintain the central purpose of the board. It's been shown multiple times that if we go too far astray from that things don't go well. Inevitably there are clashes, especially re politics. That's not why Eric started this forum or why CZ is keeping it going.

If you can provide those sources, you should do so.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you can provide those sources, you should do
> so.

British Medical Journal ("externally peer reviewed")
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4037

Will covid-19 vaccines save lives? Current trials aren’t designed to tell us

The world has bet the farm on vaccines as the solution to the pandemic, but the trials are not focused on answering the questions many might assume they are...

... Hospital admissions and deaths from covid-19 are simply too uncommon in the population being studied for an effective vaccine to demonstrate statistically significant differences in a trial of 30 000 people. The same is true of its ability to save lives or prevent transmission: the trials are not designed to find out.

Thank you.

First, you spoke of multiple sources but produce just the one.

Second, your study was published at about the same time as Pfizer's Stage Three approval, meaning it was written earlier than that. In other words, your study is from before ALL of the major efficacy studies were completed. We now have Pfizer in October, Moderna in December, and J&J in February. In addition, we now have the results of subsequent studies showing precisely the efficacy against severe disease that you say are lacking.

Your choosing this article is like taking a study on Polio conducted in the 1950s and presenting it as evidence that we do not know the efficacy of the vaccine today. That is why--and the authorities have been explicit about this--every one of the agencies you claim are hesitant have strongly endorsed the vaccines. None of them agree with you.

Finally, you assert that "The real conspiracy is that we are not allowed to discuss these matters in any mainstream arena, even when they come from major governments and mainstream medicine." That is nonsense. Your topics are discussed in the "mainstream arena" every single day. And even if that were not true, it's not incumbent on RfM to play that role.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And even if
> that were not true, it's not incumbent on RfM to
> play that role.


And this would be the salient point of the OP. OT is allowed but not to the point of swamping the board so its aim is lost. And not to focus on hot button world issues that spark friction between posters.

I see it as not curtailing freedom of debate but rather keeping the focus on Mormonism and life beyond it.

https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/refuting-peter-doshi-s-claims-doubting-trustworthiness-meaningfulness-of-covid-vaccine-results

(Referring to this piece by Doshi
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/04/peter-doshi-pfizer-and-modernas-95-effective-vaccines-we-need-more-details-and-the-raw-data/?fbclid=IwAR2ESj2u_brV80OYXvHeSRSAV-PkkyzO4a0WGZA6KHNz3H7T11ulcEm0aGg)

"Thus, the crux of Doshi's article claiming that these "suspected but unconfirmed cases" should have been included in the efficacy analysis is based on specious arguments and demonstrates a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the details of the trial and their data."

"I find the substance of Doshi's criticisms to be sorely lacking, and think this opinion piece does far more harm than good in our societal efforts to understand the true efficacy and safety of these vaccines and utilize them as appropriate to combat the pandemic."

I am not going to summarize it further. You really should read it to get the whole idea (it's not overly technical).

Ah, thanks for following up on this. So it was a case of "we do not have complete information yet", for vaccines that are just a few months past approval, and it takes several months to get a refereed article published, so it was written very early in the cycle. And it didn't say the vaccines weren't effective, just that the authors saw insufficient evidence, and the post from [|] showed that even that conclusion was in dispute. Disputed conclusions are the norm in active research.

We now have nearly a billion people inoculated, and the most heavily vaccinated nations (eg Israel, US, UK) are showing the biggest drop in deaths. Seems to be working pretty well.

Exactly. And we now have follow-up studies documenting precisely what the article says are unknown variables.

I suspect that once again the poster started with a conclusion in mind and then either directly or through some interested website sought something science-ish to support it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2021 06:24PM by Lot's Wife.

Yeah. This is definitely a moving target. Gotta check dates on any articles or conclusions or advice. I try to keep up to date on it and note frequent changes as information is gathered and more knowledge is gained.

The fact that this is something not before encountered and updates are provided as more substantiated information is obtained is pretty much how good science works.

I was a little nervous about the vaccine but preferred that infinitesimal risk to the potential alternative (choking to death from COVID). And I don't mind if the general advice is updated frequently. I appreciate that those in the know are staying on track and providing information as soon as they glean it.

I've always been interested in the plague and the Spanish flu. Who knew we'd live through pestilence ourselves. Not much fun. Too bad it hasn't been confined to the history books.

What we experienced was much less severe than the 1918 influenza let alone the Black Plague, Smallpox in the Americas, or the plagues that did such damage to the Roman Empire.

Modern medicine is a godsend.

Oh yes, of course. 50M estimated cases of Spanish flu. 25M died of black plague in the 1300's. I don't know how many after that. Smallpox: 300M deaths in the 20th Century (!!). In the 1960's 15M cases a year (not sure how many deaths).

Absolutely horrific.

I'll take my jabs, any day. And be immensely grateful for them.

That Spanish flu is almost within our lifetimes and it lasted for over 2 years.

(I was dismayed to hear Dr. F say the other day that we should be back to normal by next Mother's Day. Another year!? Wah. A long haul, to be sure. But at least we're in the fortunate countries that have the vaccines).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2021 07:06PM by Nightingale.

This argument is the same as the anti-evolutionists use - there are papers in biology journals arguing about points in evolution.

True, but they are arguing about small points on the fringes of active research. Organic evolution is the organizing principle of modern biology, and the papers are not disagreeing with that. The existence of those papers is not proof that the evidence for evolution is somehow very shaky.


Similarly, there is lots we don't know about the covid vaccines. How long does the immunity last? What is the optimal time between shots for multi-shot vaccines? What level is needed for herd immunity? Can vaccinated people still transmit the virus? Will they continue to be effective against variants?

These are all open questions. That the vaccines so far are very effective at preventing serious illness and death, and are far safer than the disease they prevent, is not an open question. That is an established fact based on a large body of evidence from controlled studies, and now from experience in the general population. And the vaccines and their manufacturers are still on a short leash. Vaccines are always on a short leash.

Of course there is going to be more research, and people are going to argue about how to interpret new data, and whether that data is valid or not. These vaccines are about a year old, and have been released to the general public for just a few months.

We can't even go that far unless our anonymous friend provides his sources. If he doesn't we can infer that s/he realizes they are flawed or do not support his/her claims.

I think we also can't go that far as the very thread we're in right now is asking us to cease and desist on that topic and others in a similar vein. :)

True enough, the temptation is hard to resist as it's one ginormous reality of life that's hitting us in the face every day.

That's fine. But the implication is that the original posts challenging board policy are the problem.

Yes. I see. My comment was a bit unnecessary. I was trying to be funny but sometimes jokes thud.

I award myself a whoosh.

:)

This could be a fun thread. OUCH, I poked myself already (sharp needle)! OKAY, maybe knot-not in this thread.

Thanks admin [add a man-what chu' got?]. More ad men, and other unmentionables.

It should go without saying... But just look at some of this company...

I'd like to meet the Cat for coffee for a little esCHATology chat. How about a get-together at the Restaurant At The End Of The Universe, Cat?

Do they have box parking?

And if his views are not Biblical, we might deem his end-time views as eschat(il)logical.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd like to meet the Cat for coffee for a little
> esCHATology chat. How about a get-together at the
> Restaurant At The End Of The Universe, Cat?


Whatever else you may think of me,
I can either exist and/or not exist at the same time,
Depending upon your perspective.

This is why Zipper is in charge. Mormonism definitely alters your perceptions and brain into fantasy type thinking or an over abundance of conspiracy thinking.

Thank you CZ