Previous thread here: https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2379467

I normally would have pulled a thread like this because it is off-topic, political and inflammatory. But I thought about it for a while and decided to let the thread stand. Some sub-threads did get pulled for various reasons, but most of the material is still there.

I listened to all of Dr. Khilanani's talk and read a broad swath of internet commentary about the kerfuffle. The talk was indeed inflammatory. She intended it to be inflammatory, and now she's harvesting heaps of free publicity. Many have called her crazy. Do I think she's crazy? Like a fox.

The biggest headlines have been about Khilanani's "fantasies of unloading a revolver into the head of any white person that got in [her] way..." This is pretty violent imagery and I personally don't believe it was appropriate for a public forum. However, Khilanani claims to work with patients on suppressed and subconscious anger, so discussing violent fantasies in a talk before other medical professionals might have some merit. Anger was a major theme of her talk, so some discussion of sources and outlets of anger would be natural.

Khilanani made repeated hyperbolic claims about "whiteness" and "white people", especially "white women". She appears to be quite angry and admits that she is not going to internalize that anger. As I listened to her talk, I noticed a lot of what I believe to be projection on her part, lumping every bit of evil she sees in the world into some concept of "whiteness" against which she can rant.

And rant she does, painting cartoonish stereotypes of "white people" and resolving her world-view through a lens where everything is about race. Dr. Khilanani should probably be considered a cautionary tale.

Why am I writing this? Because much about her situation is similar to the ex-Mormon experience. Many in our community have been harmed and were then told to just "get over it", or even gaslighted into believing that it was their own fault or that no one had ever harmed them in the first place. That is psychologically dangerous territory to be in. One of the purposes of RfM is to give people a safe space to talk about their experiences... and to rant.

We allow a lot of ranting about Mormons and Mormonism here. We allow anger and stereotypes and and a certain amount of invective (deserved or otherwise) aimed at the church's leadership. Why? Because it is necessary for those harmed by Mormonism to have an outlet for their thoughts and feelings, even if those are not particularly polite or civil. Note that we do *not* allow violent threats or even fantasies like the one Khilanani described. If you have such fantasies, please know that they are common, but do not post them here (and preferably not in any public forum). It's probably best that you share those fantasies with a therapist or close friend who can give you a hug and talk you through things.

There are a lot of hurt people in this world. We were hurt by Mormonism. Others have been hurt by racism, sexism, war, poverty, crime, neglect or any number of horrible things. It shouldn't surprise anyone that that inner pain needs an escape valve. There are, no doubt, healthier and less healthy ways for that to happen. and my hope is to keep RfM as a healthy option.

So feel free to vent and rant about Mormonism here. Just no violence please.

CZ (who has emitted more rants in his lifetime than can be counted)

Khilanani has bought into "Critical Race Theory" in a major way. Acknowledging the intense controversy, people seem divided into two unfortunately extreme camps. Some think this movement is long overdue, and is necessary to redress past injustices and correct on-going prejudice, termed "implicit bias." The other side sees it as dangerous and hateful in its own way. Group One is weaving it into curriculae, where we see it espoused (with teaching modules) in business, the military, and especially the education system, K through Kollege. Group B has begun to organize opposition to CRT.

Which brings me to the issue which makes things look implacable: the two sides are also divided along partisan lines. Each side reads media that espouses, or at least tilts towards, their side, and dismisses the rest as either "conspiracy stuff" (A) or "fake news" (B).

My remarks are, of course, generalized, but I hold that there is not much middle ground between those who support CRT and those who oppose. Why do we see the "other side" as the enemy and regard them as an existential threat to our society and Republic? Rodney King's line, "Why can't we just get along" is often used sardonically, but can't we? Can't we view, and treat, each other with respect--and maybe a little affection?

I have no horse in the CRT fight, caffiend, and think Khilanani sounds like an ass. But why would anyone take a shrink's words as important when she is a psychiatrist pontificating on history, sociology and law? That people on the right would fasten on someone like her as significant says more about those commentators than her, I'd think.

More generally, facts matter. The militant right is a greater threat to the United States than Muslim terrorists, Joe Biden won the election, the insurrection was orchestrated and undertaken by Trump supporters and not Antifa or BLM, and police maimed by Insurgents are every bit as important as those injured or wounded in street protests. If people like you could acknowledge those realities, it would be easier to get along.

But if you can't, then it is unrealistic to expect those of us who like facts to meet you half way. There is no compromise between lies, however fervently wished for, and the truth.

Common knowledge of the Critical Race Theory is necessary to keep our country from just going on as it has been, normalizing racism.

There’s battle lines being drawn
Nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong.
Picked a helluva day to quit the bong.

All of this generational hubbub has going on since the first teenager found the first pubic hair.

What I think is a more profound shift is the rejection of western tenets of civilization, such as the orthodoxy of Plato and Aristotle which left us with a planet wired for self-demolition waiting for some “oops”. So, why not pry that little magneto out of Plato’s beautifully calcified hands? Oh and we’ll be clipping those wires now. Wouldn’t want anyone to get hurt.

Isn’t Mormonism proof enough that the inmates have been running the asylum for the last 3000 years? Looking at the previous management’s track record? I’m up for some housecleaning.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, CZ.

Yesterday, I had never heard of this person. Today (published yesterday, actually) there was an article about her and the talk in the NYTimes. Well, I know who she is now. Incidentally, caffeind, the article makes no mention of CRT, so I would say your claim that she has bought into CRT is mostly in your imagination. CRT and men going trans so they can steal state women's softball championships is the 2020 version of 2004's "gay Mexican Muslim terrorists are invading America to destroy marriage" - you know, the Prop 8 hysteria conflated with immigration. These are the same people who used to complain about the Common Core. CRT is the flavor of the month.

Khilanani is a psychiatrist in private practice, not associated with Yale, so I guess my speculation yesterday about her being a faculty member saying dumb stuff (an occupational hazard for faculty members) was off the mark. Yale was left in the difficult position of censoring her talk, and being accused of cancel culture (another flavor of the month) or letting it stand, and being accused of supporting racism and violence. Talk about a lose-lose situation.

Quoting from their article:
>A psychiatrist said in a lecture at Yale University’s School of Medicine that she had fantasies of shooting white people, prompting the university to later restrict online access to her expletive-filled talk, which it said was “antithetical to the values of the school.”


>“Something is emotionally dangerous about opening up a conversation about race,” she said in the email. “No one wants to look at their actions or face their own negative feelings about what they are doing. The best way to control the narrative is to focus on me, and make me the problem, which is what I stated occurs in the dynamic of racism.”


>Dr. Nicholas A. Christakis, a Yale professor of social and natural science, internal medicine and biomedical engineering, was among those who had criticized Dr. Khilanani’s lecture.

>He said on Twitter that the views that Dr. Khilanani had expressed, which he referred to as “racism,” were “deeply worrisome & counter-productive.”

>“Of course, as an invitee, she is free to speak on campus,” Dr. Christakis said. “But her views must be soundly rejected.”


Those are just snippets of the article at (probably paywalled)
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/nyregion/yale-psychiatrist-aruna-khilanani.html

BTW, Yale has limited access to the lecture to those who were eligible to attend it live.


As CZ pointed out, and I noticed long ago, people are allowed to say prejudiced things about Mormons here, that if they said similar things about other groups (gays, Muslims, races) would be summarily deleted. CZ stated well why that is the case, and presumably you just read that above.


I was struck by other related articles in the NYTimes just in today's issue about other aspects of this issue.

There is an article about the ACLU dealing with how do they handle the tension between defending free speech which they abhor, and defending the causes that the abhorrent speech is attacking.

There is an article about "Dinner-Party-Gate", that paints a grim picture of some goings-on at Yale (yes, them again) Law. It was a long article about possible faculty misconduct, that relates to my comments yesterday about faculty saying (and doing) dumb things.

There is an article about "The Native Scholar Who Wasn't". Heard that song before.

And the article on Dr Khilanani.

Anyway, who is allowed to say what, intersected with race is a "white" hot topic at the moment. [yeah, I know, terrible pun. I will go to my room now]

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Incidentally,
> caffeind, the article makes no mention of CRT, so
> I would say your claim that she has bought into
> CRT is mostly in your imagination. CRT and men
> going trans so they can steal state women's
> softball championships is the 2020 version of
> 2004's "gay Mexican Muslim terrorists are invading
> America to destroy marriage" - you know, the Prop
> 8 hysteria conflated with immigration. These are
> the same people who used to complain about the
> Common Core. CRT is the flavor of the month.

That the NYT failed to mention CRT does not mean CRT is not relevant to Khilanani and her homicidal fantasies. The central tenet of CRT, as I understand it, is that white culture/history/psychology is inherently oppressive, and has to be changed (minimum) or eliminated (maximum). Thus, workshops such as the later-repudiated CocaCola "How To Be Less White." That got sardonic laughter on a thread, but serves to illustrate how "being white" is something to be repudiated. These programs are showing up throughout our corporate, governmental, military, educational and professional institutions.

You hadn't heard of her until she showed up on this Board, BoJ. Had she said the same about minorities, it would have been all over the internet.
>
>
> Anyway, who is allowed to say what, intersected
> with race is a "white" hot topic at the moment.

Cute!

PS I'd leave transgendered athletics out of this discussion. It is divisive, and would send us down various rabbit holes.

Yeah, this is straight up BS. You want to taint CRT and other things, so you assert that this woman is relevant and imply that transgendered athletes are as well. They are in fact wildly different things.

You aren't being honest when you confound them all, and that's why communication becomes difficult if not impossible.

I urged that transgender athletics be separated from this discussion.

Dr. Khilanani apparently has anger issues regarding white people. Even if CRT was not mentioned, it provides an ideological backdrop to race relations, and is therefore relevant.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I urged that transgender athletics be separated
> from this discussion.

That issue wasn't part of the discussion till you brought it up.


------------------
> Even if CRT was not
> mentioned, it provides an ideological backdrop to
> race relations, and is therefore relevant.

Nazism likewise "provides an ideological backdrop to race relations." Is it "therefore relevant?"

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> That issue wasn't part of the discussion till you
> brought it up.

Or search the word "trans" in this thread.
>

> Nazism likewise "provides an ideological backdrop
> to race relations." Is it "therefore relevant?"

Wow--I did nazi that coming!

Obviously not. It's okay to throw extreme cases into the mix when criticizing the left but not permissible for critics of the right to do the same thing.

That sort of double standard is why dialogue does not work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2021 01:40PM by Lot's Wife.

“Wow--I did nazi that coming!”

Please excuse Lottie’s pun deafness. Excellent work! <golf clap>

Oh, I got the pun.

The point, however, remains: caffiend likes to pretend that whatever he can dredge up is part of mainstream Democratic thinking; and that is not only false, it is also spectacularly ironic.

Do you mean the Bernie Sanders mainstream or the establishment democratic mainstream? If it’s the latter, we used to call those Republicans.

This is totally tangential, but what's up with that Christakis dude? Is he a doctor? An engineer? A scientist? Or might he be Superman? Has anyone checked to see if he also has laser eyes?

Offered without endorsement, as I only skimmed it. Overly sensitive adolescents getting their panties tied in a knot, it seems to me.

https://thefamiliarstrange.com/unpacking-the-yale-halloween-scandal/

Concrete Zipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CZ (who has emitted more rants in his lifetime than can be counted)
>

Have to tried using a calculator?

Thank you CZ. So thoughtful as BoJ pointed out, with a side of deep kindness. Gives me some hope which the thread did not.

Concrete Zipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So feel free to vent and rant about Mormonism
> here.
===============================

The biggest retained mind-worms of Mormonism (especially for BIC's brain-effed from cradle)
1. You do not see what you see.
2. You cannot form an independent opinion on what you see that you do not see.
3. You cannot speak about an opinion you do not have on what you see that you do not see.

To allow this harsh thread to stand for the reasons illuminated is a modern example of The Enlightenment in action.
Apparently not yet dead. (At least not dead here.)

Everyone knows that I had my period of angry rants on here and I did appreciate some place to vent it because I was just forced to shut up about any abuse that happened to me in religion and pretend like it never happened for most of my life. They wanted to sweep me under the rug so to speak like how I see they have tried to do with many people and not just myself. I used to think what I went through as a whole with religion and family was just a severe and a unique case but it appears that many felt absolutely trapped as I did in the situation which I know is a horrible place to be. To be forced to take part in a religion that makes no sense to you and traumatizes over and over and you just want out but they won't let you out with threats of some kind is a horrible experience that I lived.

Anyways, Zipper usually makes sense to me and I like his perspective on things. Very grounded approach which I think many of us that were surrounded with fantasy or magical thinking constantly need.

Anyways, thats all I wanted to say here.

A peer-reviewed paper titled "On Having Whiteness," written by Dr. Donald Moss, and published in the bi-monthly, peer-reviewed Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association (05/27/21) a white man who is a faculty member of both the New York Psychoanalytic Institute and the San Francisco Center for Psychoanalysis says whiteness is "a malignant, parasitic-like condition."

From Newsweek,

In the article, Moss wrote that "'white' people have a particular susceptibility" to the "parasitic" condition, which he claims "renders its hosts' appetites voracious, insatiable, and perverse." He explained he believed whiteness establishes "entitled dominion" that enables the "host" to have "power without limit, force without restriction, violence without mercy," and increases one's drive to "terrorize."

But there is hope (well, maybe a little). Also, from Newsweek:

"Effective treatment consists of a combination of psychic and social-historical interventions. Such interventions can reasonably aim only to reshape Whiteness's infiltrated appetites—to reduce their intensity, redistribute their aims, and occasionally turn those aims toward the work of reparation," Moss wrote in an abstract summary for the Journal. "When remembered and represented, the ravages wreaked by the chronic condition can function either as warning ('never again') or as temptation ('great again')."

Even with treatment, Moss wrote, there "is no guarantee against regression" and "[t]here is not yet a permanent cure."

Follow the science, folks!

Yawn.

Psychoanalysis is hardly "science, folks." And your endless quest for people on the left saying stupid things is nothing more than self-amusement. Do we in the center or the left have to assert tenuous connections to Saybrook University or a crazy shrink fond of vulgarities in order to find people to discredit your views?

No, we do not. We can see examples of your lunacy in the House, where Republicans fear Jewish Space Lasers, denounce the "so-called science" of evolution, and want to explore the ability of the Forest Service to change the orbit of the moon. We observed such derangement until recently in the White House, where prominent Republicans assured us that drinking Clorox would improve our health and that hydroxychloroquine would kill COVID.

We can even read about the merits of tin foil on this board, where some believe the insurrection against the US government was patriotic while others assure us that the insurrection was actually organized and enacted by Antifa and BLM activists. You personally even told us that the FBI had only managed to arrest a few dozen people who were either released or charged with minor crimes like trespassing. That was, of course, over 350 arrests ago.

It is a lot easier for us to show the idiocy of your pack than it is for you to taint centrists and liberals by association with unknown progressive cretins. Why? Because conspiracy-theoretical, counterfactual voodoo doctors comprise the strongest 3/4 of your GOP today. The short-bus crowd are in fact your thought leaders.

This will undoubtedly get removed, but before it does, I hope you see this:

Thank you LW.

Ditto

Double Ditto

Also DITTOING.

Does that make me a dittohead? Oh the irony.

HH =)

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Follow the science, folks!
===============================

which is unfortunate because it comfortably explains so much about human behavior, but it's all unprovable theory.
(In that way it is like religion.) The only folks getting psychoanalysis today are other psychoanalysts :-)

Science is merely a method, but it got us to the moon. (Some say)

And as for nuttiness, -- hey ace, look around. That's just the human condition.

While we are following the science, anyone hear how getting a covid shot will turn you into a magnet? Made me laugh so hard I damn near wet myself. But it MUST be true, I saw it on Tick Tock!

As for Dr. Khilanani, no different than a radio talk show shock jock or some of the crap poor little Tucker Carlson comes up with (horrible thing that his mommy didn't love him). Or that ass Bundy. Attention whores making a buck off the gullible.

Yup, this was actually said to Ohio legislators (at the invitation of Republicans, naturally) by some quack anti-vaxx physician named Sherri Tenpenny (insert your own joke here):

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jun/09/sherri-tenpenny/sherri-tenpenny-makes-false-covid-19-vaccine-magne/

It has something to do with 5G towers too.

The best part -

"Later on in the Ohio House hearing, a nurse tried unsuccessfully to prove Tenpenny's theory by positioning a key and a bobby pin against her neck. 'Explain to me why the key sticks to me. It sticks to my neck too,' she said, even as the key she pressed to her neck did not stick."

Is Murica a great country, or what?

>>'Explain to me why the key sticks to me. It sticks to my neck too,'

I think she should try washing more often. Oily gook gets sticky. Just saying.
I can't help solve that problem right now though. I'm busy working with Rep. Gohmert to tweak the earth's orbit to fix climate change. After that, I need to help rake forests.

People, the "war on science" and our increasing scientific illiteracy is embarrassing.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think she should try washing more often.
===============================

Fixed that non-stick problem with a slathering of Vaseline.
Key not sticking? Easy fix. Now even the cat sticks.

Also Crazy Glue and then you are ready for the next group.

Can't even pull it off the magnetism is so strong!

People aren't going to need to pray for help to find their car keys as much if they get the vaccine. :-)

HA HA HA AND HA. Joke of the year. Bless you.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People aren't going to need to pray for help to
> find their car keys as much if they get the
> vaccine. :-)

And now we get to the heart of the matter: the vaccines are evil because they are motivated by the desire to wrest God's final responsibility from him.

I got both shots and I must have gotten a bad batch. No Mark of the Beast has appeared, I'm not a 5G hotspot, and I'm not magnetic. And I could have used that magnetism to convince folks I'm a Jedi.

ookami Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I got both shots and I must have gotten a bad
> batch. No Mark of the Beast has appeared, I'm not
> a 5G hotspot, and I'm not magnetic. And I could
> have used that magnetism to convince folks I'm a
> Jedi.

:D

Actually, people, completely oil-free skin will stick to objects like a spoon better than oily skin. Try it with a squeaky clean nose and spoon.

Same reason egg whites with some yolk contamination won’t whip up into merengue.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Try it with a squeaky clean nose and spoon.

The dish ran away with the spoon.

And the cow jumped over the moon.


So I can't try it. :P


I've been wanting to comment on this thread since it went up. I would have been the first post here.

However. I couldn't frame my thoughts well enough, soon enough.

For sure they were better though than my offering above.

Oh well. C'est la vie.

I'm reduced to pondering the best method for obtaining a "squeaky clean nose".

Soap and water, followed by a cotton ball with alcohol will do it nicely. Noses tend to be particularly oily, for some evolutionarily obscure reason.

The spoon also needs to be squeaky clean - no fingerprints on the bowl.

It also helps to cheat a bit and lean your head back. :)

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/squeaky-clean

Dang it Dagny! You beat me to the orbit thing. There is so much bat crap crazy going around that it is hard to be first here with anything :)

Altering the orbit of the earth is simple. Just change the gravitational constant a bit.

Or just shut off the Jewish space lasers. That would cool the earth.

Or put lasers into orbit that emit cool light. If I can buy cool light at Home Depot, surely we can put some in orbit.

Donald Trump tried to buy Greenland, in an effort to lower the average temperature of the US by simply installing NOAA weather stations there.


[That he floated the idea of buying Greenland is true. Denmark was not interested or amused. Why he wanted to buy it is beyond me. Perhaps rename it Trumpland? Sell branded ice? ]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_the_United_States_to_purchase_Greenland
The section on the 2019 offer was far longer than I expected. We do have a history of buying land from Denmark. The US Virgin Islands were formerly the Danish West Indies. So hey, could have happened.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2021 06:21PM by Brother Of Jerry.