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Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
I don't understand this whole dismantling of temple square to become gardens or whatever. It almost feels like TSCC has so much money laying around that they are just dreaming up stuff to spend it on.
https://www.ksl.com/article/50184199/temple-squares-north-visitors-center-will-soon-be-demolished-replaced-by-garden
https://www.ksl.com/article/50184199/temple-squares-north-visitors-center-will-soon-be-demolished-replaced-by-garden
Whoa. Hold on a minute Russ. I know it's rather embarrassing that the visitor's center was Deadsville and the few who did go went for the same reason you go to Ripley's Believe It or Not museum, but this the Christus was what your agenda, your platform, was all about. Mormons trampling right over Brigham and Joseph to get to Jesus.
Please don't tell me your holy pen said to name the garden Gethsemane.
And please tell me the statue with the seagulls will still be there. Please. I need that much.
Please don't tell me your holy pen said to name the garden Gethsemane.
And please tell me the statue with the seagulls will still be there. Please. I need that much.
Wasn't Babylon famous for its gardens?
Kind of like the one on the roof of the conference center?
Exactly! That's what I first thought when I saw that building: the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.
Wow! I kinda figured you were old...
You're still salty about the golf joke, aren't you.
Gemini is right. They gotta spend cash on sumpin.
Investigative reporting may show vast overpayment to a GA’s in-law’s demo outfit. I doubt there was any bidding for the job.
Investigative reporting may show vast overpayment to a GA’s in-law’s demo outfit. I doubt there was any bidding for the job.
Nepotism? I beg your pardon. The GA's would never ever do that. Really. I swear on a stack of BoAs. And a whole pile of BoMs.
What are they going to tear down next, the tabernacle?
My mother took us to SLC a lot on Sundays as that is when my parents would argue over my dad's lack of attendance at church. My aunt had moved out of state and so she'd take us to temple square. My daughter, once she went back to church, asked me if I had ever seen the Christus statue and I was like, "oh so many times!" I hated temple square.
So no new conference center? I'm sure they could think of something to BUILD.
My mother took us to SLC a lot on Sundays as that is when my parents would argue over my dad's lack of attendance at church. My aunt had moved out of state and so she'd take us to temple square. My daughter, once she went back to church, asked me if I had ever seen the Christus statue and I was like, "oh so many times!" I hated temple square.
So no new conference center? I'm sure they could think of something to BUILD.
They must no tear down the Tabernacle. Mormon edifice or not. Just name it the Jehovah Tent and leave it alone.
When I last saw the tabernacle=== brought back all the tours we had taken, all the meetings we had attended inside of it as a family—gigantic organ piping out hymns and equally gigantic choir singing them. My father always told us about the roof construction every single time, as if he had built the dome himself: The roof was nine feet thick, and a famous bridge maker had constructed it using what they called a “Remington lattice truss” system of timbers pinned together with wooden pegs. Dad would pause every time and say, “Not a nail in the whole building; can you believe it?” The wooden pegs and timbers were wrapped with green raw-hide that would shrink as it dried and tighten everything. Then dad would say, “Everyone thought it would collapse when they took down the scaffolding, but here we are today, a hundred years later. They should have never doubted the Lord’s prophet.” Mom would always add that the plaster on the inside had cattle hair mixed in for strength, as if that had to be another miracle inspired by God. And then we would all go off for lunch at Harmon’s Kentucky Fried Chicken. That was the good part of the day.
When I last saw the tabernacle=== brought back all the tours we had taken, all the meetings we had attended inside of it as a family—gigantic organ piping out hymns and equally gigantic choir singing them. My father always told us about the roof construction every single time, as if he had built the dome himself: The roof was nine feet thick, and a famous bridge maker had constructed it using what they called a “Remington lattice truss” system of timbers pinned together with wooden pegs. Dad would pause every time and say, “Not a nail in the whole building; can you believe it?” The wooden pegs and timbers were wrapped with green raw-hide that would shrink as it dried and tighten everything. Then dad would say, “Everyone thought it would collapse when they took down the scaffolding, but here we are today, a hundred years later. They should have never doubted the Lord’s prophet.” Mom would always add that the plaster on the inside had cattle hair mixed in for strength, as if that had to be another miracle inspired by God. And then we would all go off for lunch at Harmon’s Kentucky Fried Chicken. That was the good part of the day.
Is that where the guy busted the hand off the jesus statue ?
Yes, the guy broke all Jesus's digits off with a hammer. The holy ghost nicknamed him "stubby" after that.
That was like the ground breaking ceremony for the demolition that is just now getting started.
That was like the ground breaking ceremony for the demolition that is just now getting started.
“the guy broke all Jesus's digits off with a hammer”
I thought it was just an overly firm Mormon handshake.
I thought it was just an overly firm Mormon handshake.
Out with the old rides, in with the new rides at Temple Square amusement park. Admission is free except for the 10% someone is paying somewhere. The main attraction ride is reserved for hose who definitely pay the 10% of income admission.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2021 03:05PM by cheezus.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2021 03:05PM by cheezus.
Hopefully there will somewhere with air conditioning for the cute and perky young sister missionaries to hang out while waiting for those golden contacts.
Had a friend that was new to Utah that was soooooo happy some girls he met at temple square asked for his phone number.
He was so looking forward to dinner with this cute swiss gal.
He was so looking forward to dinner with this cute swiss gal.
Ha! Ha! I used to live in the Avenues and have been to Temple Square more times than I care to remember. They always had cute female missionaries from different parts of the world to charm the heck out of the visiting tourists.
Rubicon Wrote:
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> Ha! Ha! I used to live in the Avenues and have
> been to Temple Square more times than I care to
> remember. They always had cute female
> missionaries from different parts of the world to
> charm the heck out of the visiting tourists.
Yep. By design. I live in Denmark now, and for the very few sister missionaries that leave from Denmark, there is about a 90% chance they will end up on temple square.
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> Ha! Ha! I used to live in the Avenues and have
> been to Temple Square more times than I care to
> remember. They always had cute female
> missionaries from different parts of the world to
> charm the heck out of the visiting tourists.
Yep. By design. I live in Denmark now, and for the very few sister missionaries that leave from Denmark, there is about a 90% chance they will end up on temple square.
God tried to take this building down a few years ago and failed miserably.
https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/1999-08-14/rare-tornado-hits-salt-lake-city-122560
https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/1999-08-14/rare-tornado-hits-salt-lake-city-122560
I miss the museum that used to be on the south side of the square. It featured mummies and and other stuff the church claimed supported their story.
I remember those mummies. They were scary!
The stuff nigthmares are made of.
It reminds me of a story of a San Juan county native. when he was a lad of twelve, he was scrambling around the sandstone and in one alcove he found a baby mummy!
A baby mummy! How cool is that?
So he told his buddies that he had a mummy in his closet and they all said Nuh-uh, and he said come and see and they did.
And there it was! A mummy in his closet.
I can only imagine the scene when his Mom looked in the closet and saw what was there.
This young man grew up to be a nature loving, tree-hugging, respecter-of ancient-cultures, Anasazi lover, and all the rest of it. He would never kidnap a mummy, never! Not when he became an enlightened adult.
But there was a time when he had a mummy in his closet and how many people can say that?
The stuff nigthmares are made of.
It reminds me of a story of a San Juan county native. when he was a lad of twelve, he was scrambling around the sandstone and in one alcove he found a baby mummy!
A baby mummy! How cool is that?
So he told his buddies that he had a mummy in his closet and they all said Nuh-uh, and he said come and see and they did.
And there it was! A mummy in his closet.
I can only imagine the scene when his Mom looked in the closet and saw what was there.
This young man grew up to be a nature loving, tree-hugging, respecter-of ancient-cultures, Anasazi lover, and all the rest of it. He would never kidnap a mummy, never! Not when he became an enlightened adult.
But there was a time when he had a mummy in his closet and how many people can say that?
Does Trotsky under your bed count?
Not as cool as a mummy in your closet, but he ought to count for something, old foxy Trotsky. You could drag him out whenever you needed a way cool commie.
I think that guy who wrote War and Peace -- what was his name -- had a few words to say about the Mormons, but I can't even remember his name or what he had to say. Just that he had a horrible marriage and a long-suffering wife.
That's what happens when you read too many books, or in that Rusky's guy's case, when you write too much.
He hated railroad stations for some reason, but he ended up dying in one.
I am not real fond of railroad stations, but I don't hate them.
I think that guy who wrote War and Peace -- what was his name -- had a few words to say about the Mormons, but I can't even remember his name or what he had to say. Just that he had a horrible marriage and a long-suffering wife.
That's what happens when you read too many books, or in that Rusky's guy's case, when you write too much.
He hated railroad stations for some reason, but he ended up dying in one.
I am not real fond of railroad stations, but I don't hate them.
That would be Leo Tolstoy.
He did correspond a few times with BY's daughter, who sent him a BoM. Mormons claim he said very positive things about Mormonism but there is no evidence of that. I'm unaware of anything particularly critical, either, however.
And yes, his religious beliefs were strange and grew stranger as he aged. At one point he left his dacha and moved in with the peasants on his estate, wanting to be one with the commoners. Perhaps that was a reflection of the "back to the people" movement that brought college students and leftists to the countryside and eventually fed into various forms of communism. It must have been a curious time for the peasants lived a much more communal life but had not interest in the various intellectual groups agitating in the big cities.
I don't know much about Tolstoy's wife other than that she was living with an increasingly eccentric man who basically rejected everything he and his family had stood for. Was she to throw away her good clothes and move with Leo into a flee-ridden hovel among people who feared and disliked them? I'm not sure how that would have worked.
A fascinating man, a fascinating time.
He did correspond a few times with BY's daughter, who sent him a BoM. Mormons claim he said very positive things about Mormonism but there is no evidence of that. I'm unaware of anything particularly critical, either, however.
And yes, his religious beliefs were strange and grew stranger as he aged. At one point he left his dacha and moved in with the peasants on his estate, wanting to be one with the commoners. Perhaps that was a reflection of the "back to the people" movement that brought college students and leftists to the countryside and eventually fed into various forms of communism. It must have been a curious time for the peasants lived a much more communal life but had not interest in the various intellectual groups agitating in the big cities.
I don't know much about Tolstoy's wife other than that she was living with an increasingly eccentric man who basically rejected everything he and his family had stood for. Was she to throw away her good clothes and move with Leo into a flee-ridden hovel among people who feared and disliked them? I'm not sure how that would have worked.
A fascinating man, a fascinating time.
would that daughter have been Susa Gates Young?
She was quite the writer and quite the daddy's girl.
Wonder what old Tolstoy would have thought of Orderville?
She was quite the writer and quite the daddy's girl.
Wonder what old Tolstoy would have thought of Orderville?
Yep. Susa Gates Young. I believe a couple of her letters are in an archive in Russia, and a couple of letters from Tolstoi or his representative/s are in some Utah library.
The Tolstoy thing was published in "Marvelous Work and a Wonder" by that renowned intellectual, LeGrand Richards. Richards in turn pulled it from a 1939 Improvement Era article.
Essentially, the IE said that a mormon Cornell student said that a former prez of Cornell said that Tolstoy complimented the church. So it's what, a 3rd or 4th-hand account? Where is any room for doubt?
Then Richards dishonestly spun Tolstoy's *conditional* praise (by ignoring the word "unmodified") into a confident prediction of the *inevitable* destiny of the church as "the greatest power the world has ever known."
https://archive.org/details/improvementera4202unse/page/n31/mode/2up
Essentially, the IE said that a mormon Cornell student said that a former prez of Cornell said that Tolstoy complimented the church. So it's what, a 3rd or 4th-hand account? Where is any room for doubt?
Then Richards dishonestly spun Tolstoy's *conditional* praise (by ignoring the word "unmodified") into a confident prediction of the *inevitable* destiny of the church as "the greatest power the world has ever known."
https://archive.org/details/improvementera4202unse/page/n31/mode/2up
This is right. There are a couple of studies by BYU and/or FAIR that tried unsuccessfully to locate the original statement. The claim has all the markings of a faith-promoting rumor.
I think Rusty and the top leaders should wear appropriate costumes. Nelson should dress as a reptile. I think it compliments his persona. I think Holland should dress as a toad.
I think Oaks should paint his bald head to match granite rock. He should be submerged in a creek so nobody can hear him. Bednar would make a perfect billy goat.
I think Oaks should paint his bald head to match granite rock. He should be submerged in a creek so nobody can hear him. Bednar would make a perfect billy goat.
Hilarious scenarios!
Obviously there was 2 of them, no point in having more than one visitor's center in one location and free up the extra space for more open space instead
So there will no longer be ANY visitor centers?
They're just trying to cut back supply to a level closer to demand.
Whoa! Space Jesus is already gone! I’m surprised I didn’t hear about this. He must have had some sort of a following, right???
RG
RG
I think the church has made a lot of money in the equities markets and has cashed out fearing losing their gains in a stock market crash.
I think they do have a lot of cash burning a hole in their pocket. Temple Square is a huge tourist trap. Green is good public relations and the visitor’s center looks like an old relic from the 1960’s.
Russ seems to like green and so people can enjoy the trees and gardens while cute young girl missionaries from various parts of the world work the people who are there.
I think they do have a lot of cash burning a hole in their pocket. Temple Square is a huge tourist trap. Green is good public relations and the visitor’s center looks like an old relic from the 1960’s.
Russ seems to like green and so people can enjoy the trees and gardens while cute young girl missionaries from various parts of the world work the people who are there.
I'm wondering who these hot young sister missionaries wind up marrying. Do they go home and choose from among the slim pickings in their home wards (there can't be all that many YM left), or do most of them wind up with the sons of stake presidents?
While at TS, do they get introduced to the sons and grandsons of General Authorities as potential wives, and do a substantial number of them get married into GA families?
Remember it was Heber Kimball who told the missionaries of his day to stop taking all the pretty locals for themselves. The leaders always want to skim off the cream.
While at TS, do they get introduced to the sons and grandsons of General Authorities as potential wives, and do a substantial number of them get married into GA families?
Remember it was Heber Kimball who told the missionaries of his day to stop taking all the pretty locals for themselves. The leaders always want to skim off the cream.
I don't have any warm or fuzzy memories of temple square so I don't care what the church does. Remember that it's Rusty playground and he is doing as he pleases. He's not sentimental about Mormon traditions so he's dumping them as fast as he can.
Keep in mind that with less buildings/statues/monuments/plaques to look at, people will focus on the temple or the tabernacle (maybe there's another building~ I am too lazy to look it up on google).
I think cl2 is right about the tabernacle. I don't think the church will tear it down overnight, but I think they will announce that engineers are studying it because it's no longer safe. I think they will close it off, then announce that it's not feasible to save it. Rusty can announce it during GC and say it's revelation that something else needs to be built, it's part of his restoration. Let's face it, the tabernacle is an interesting building but it doesn't generate convert baptisms and costs the church money to maintain.
Keep in mind that with less buildings/statues/monuments/plaques to look at, people will focus on the temple or the tabernacle (maybe there's another building~ I am too lazy to look it up on google).
I think cl2 is right about the tabernacle. I don't think the church will tear it down overnight, but I think they will announce that engineers are studying it because it's no longer safe. I think they will close it off, then announce that it's not feasible to save it. Rusty can announce it during GC and say it's revelation that something else needs to be built, it's part of his restoration. Let's face it, the tabernacle is an interesting building but it doesn't generate convert baptisms and costs the church money to maintain.
-One more thought.
Nelson (and the church) has learned through previous projects that not all members approve of the his vision to dump the old for something brand new.
-His initial temple square renovation did not disclose that the interior murals would be scrubbed clean.
-The project only disclosed that one visitor center location needed to go.
-The Manti temple restoration received a lot of criticism from church members. The church backpedaled then revealed that a whole new temple needed to be built as if that was the "plan" from the get go.
Now members are upset that the church has no immediate plans to display the Christus statue. The notion that the statue will sit in a warehouse out of view isn't faith building for many members.
TL DR
The church will likely be more selective which details are released during its restoration/renovation press releases.
The church still hasn't released the cost of these projects.
Nelson (and the church) has learned through previous projects that not all members approve of the his vision to dump the old for something brand new.
-His initial temple square renovation did not disclose that the interior murals would be scrubbed clean.
-The project only disclosed that one visitor center location needed to go.
-The Manti temple restoration received a lot of criticism from church members. The church backpedaled then revealed that a whole new temple needed to be built as if that was the "plan" from the get go.
Now members are upset that the church has no immediate plans to display the Christus statue. The notion that the statue will sit in a warehouse out of view isn't faith building for many members.
TL DR
The church will likely be more selective which details are released during its restoration/renovation press releases.
The church still hasn't released the cost of these projects.
Mormon leaders gotta keep the relatives working—-doing ... something.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2021 10:11AM by kathleen.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2021 10:11AM by kathleen.
I think they should build a castle for the profit (pun intended) to live in. They could have missionaries dress up like the Swiss guard at the Vatican, have changing of the guard ceremonies, a la Buckingham Palace. These sorts of things would help with both tourism and propping up the profit (pun intended) as someone significant.
I think you have a wonderful idea!!!
gemini Wrote:
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> I don't understand this whole dismantling of temple square to become gardens or whatever. It almost feels like TSCC has so much money laying around that they are just dreaming up stuff to spend it on. >
Mormonism DOESN'T DREAM
Or, if so, it doesn't dream big... Doesn't dream about "others"- only about itself!
It's dreams weren't shattered when it ditched the boy scouts - after it ran over them - traded Joey Smitherton for Jesus Christ in their downtown SLC "history museum" when they closed for Over A Year between 2014-2016 (this wasn't a mere moving statues [and why substitute one for the other?]), or when it lies every Sunday and every other day of the week...
"'VISITOR'S (From Outer Space) Center is now the mall!
Just like Mormon 'church' kitchens, LDS (Last Days Serenades) tempels, MORMON CHURCHES/Many members' homes: OFF LIMITS To The "UN-PREPARED", Uninitiated/ non-members/ public...
It's Secret
Not Sacred
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> I don't understand this whole dismantling of temple square to become gardens or whatever. It almost feels like TSCC has so much money laying around that they are just dreaming up stuff to spend it on. >
Mormonism DOESN'T DREAM
Or, if so, it doesn't dream big... Doesn't dream about "others"- only about itself!
It's dreams weren't shattered when it ditched the boy scouts - after it ran over them - traded Joey Smitherton for Jesus Christ in their downtown SLC "history museum" when they closed for Over A Year between 2014-2016 (this wasn't a mere moving statues [and why substitute one for the other?]), or when it lies every Sunday and every other day of the week...
"'VISITOR'S (From Outer Space) Center is now the mall!
Just like Mormon 'church' kitchens, LDS (Last Days Serenades) tempels, MORMON CHURCHES/Many members' homes: OFF LIMITS To The "UN-PREPARED", Uninitiated/ non-members/ public...
It's Secret
Not Sacred
Note that they are keeping the Christus and jettisoning Joe's Book of Mormon revelation story. It will be replaced with meditative gardens. Going mainstream?
I first experienced the visitor center (the one with Galactic Jesus) in 1968.
I went again in 1994 and it seemed like there was a lot less to it. Did there used to be more dioramas and stuff downstairs? More "proof" of Jews in the New World stuff? Did all that go away about the same time they stopped including photos of Aztec and Incan ruins in the BoM? In '94 there were quotations from past LDS "prophets" downstairs.
What was the most recent version like?
I went again in 1994 and it seemed like there was a lot less to it. Did there used to be more dioramas and stuff downstairs? More "proof" of Jews in the New World stuff? Did all that go away about the same time they stopped including photos of Aztec and Incan ruins in the BoM? In '94 there were quotations from past LDS "prophets" downstairs.
What was the most recent version like?
My first visit to the north visitor center was also in 1968. Walking up that ramp to the Christus statue made quote an impression on me. I always loved going there on visits to SLC because of that.
I also started noticing in the early 00's the visitor centers (north and south) were slowly closing down their dioramas. On a visit in 2014 I was very surprised out how the visitor centers were basically pointless and weren't used in the same capacity they were in 60's through the 80's. I went again to temple square in 2019 (for what may be the last time) before the current renovations started and the visitor centers were basically empty with nothing in them - probably in anticipation of the upcoming demolitions. Still, it was very symbolic for me as it represented a church that once meant something to me that had now become hollow and dead.
I also started noticing in the early 00's the visitor centers (north and south) were slowly closing down their dioramas. On a visit in 2014 I was very surprised out how the visitor centers were basically pointless and weren't used in the same capacity they were in 60's through the 80's. I went again to temple square in 2019 (for what may be the last time) before the current renovations started and the visitor centers were basically empty with nothing in them - probably in anticipation of the upcoming demolitions. Still, it was very symbolic for me as it represented a church that once meant something to me that had now become hollow and dead.