https://www.texastribune.org/2021/06/15/abbott-critical-race-theory-law/

UT lead the nation in gagging teachers ability to teach critical race theory.

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/5/19/22444059/why-these-educators-protested-utah-lawmakers-plan-to-encourage-ban-of-critical-race-theory

Well, that's true. The problem is that one of them is supposed to be ideas and the other is supposed to be substantial--you know, with an organization and members and meetings and such.

If you got really angry and wanted to send a strongly worded letter to Antifa, what address would you use?

Comparing Antifa to CRT is like comparing Mormons to Jehovah's Witnesses. UT was one of the most racist states in the USA (not sure how it is now). I remember that the Deseret News had an article about how there were only 10 blacks living in UT County (mid 80s). I remember asking the members of my ward if there were ever any latinos or blacks in it.
"Oh no. The Spanish have their own wards and are more comfortable there." And "Why would any blacks want to move here?"
And we can go on and on. I still have some LDS friends I talk to (the rest pretty much ghosted me) and they tell me sometimes about some of our mutual friends.
The one in WY thinks that Biden is the anti-Christ and you are Communist if you vote Dem or support any of their platform.
The other one in MT worked in a company with a couple of black men. One way up for a promotion. He did what he could to stop it. (And he did) No blacks should be that high up in the company. And after it happened, the black guy quit so my ex-friend decided to do the same and now lives in Lehi, Utah.

Absolutely correct. They can ban it but they can't define it.

https://www.businessinsider.com/alabama-republican-rep-chris-pringle-critical-race-theory-2021-6?op=1

Like pornography (per one of the General Authorities - can't remember which one said it), critical race theory is " ... difficult to define. But I know when I see it". Just kidding. Great basis for a new law huh?

But I think they just need to give the whole race thing a rest. Promomoting the idea that one race is more virtuous than another race or that one race opresses or has opressed the other race in the past, just makes the whole racial prejudice problems even worse going forward then those problems already were to begin with. I think that affirmative action laws are necessary for now. But at some point, we're just going to have to make the issue of race be a truely non-issue because no one of any race buys in to it or sees it as a real issue in need of addressing. We need to teach racial equality (without dwelling on historical examples of it) as a standard teaching in schools and churches and as company and civic policies. They should just teach the concept of racial equality itself and the need to practice it, and stop dwelling on anything that could stir-up animosity, and then leave it at that.

There should be zero tolerance for the stiring-up of race-based animosity without proof that it occurred in a specific circumstance that needs to be addressed because of new violations now (as in living people who need to be punished for making racially-based inappropriate decisions right now). We should practice racial equality as a zero-tolerance policy for violations of specific individuals in specific circumstances that actually do occur and that need to be specifically addressed. The LaRaza and BLM often exist more to add fuel to the flames of racism and have acted irresponsibly in the past by fomenting too many meritless and/or exaggerated race based claims, thus causing race-based animosity themselves. If someone uses the "N"word, they're fired or kicked out of which ever organization they're a part of where they said it, no debate about it. If someone suspects that racism played an inappropriate part of someone else's decision-making process, you better have proof if you make that claim. If you make a baseless claim, then you're kicked out. Don't allow anyone to stoke the flames for their own reasons. Just like the pornography and the critical race theory, you'll know it when you see it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2021 10:03PM by azsteve.

Ignore it and it will go away? No, because it won't.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ignore it and it will go away? No, because it
> won't.


+1.0x10^9

They should work on developing Amenable Race Theory.

Personally, I just worked on making beige children, so I like to think I was a part of a reasonable solution.

Jesus, Lethbridge Reprobate wants a divine anointing. Help him out?

What the puck?!!?

CRT = teaching about racism.
Sounds like a good thing.

For the most part, teachers teach the curriculum that they are given. No one is "gagged." In the public schools, the curriculum is normally a result of a broad cultural agreement about what should be taught. That broad agreement can be across a community, a county, a region, or a state.

What CRT looks like in practice:

>>>All White people are racist.

So, I put this up because I really want any white people in the room to know, up front, that this is what we’re dealing with. That it’s not going to be this coddling of white tears and what that looks like, we’re not going to discuss, “Oh, maybe some of us have worked it out..”

No, you’re always going to be racist actually.

So even when you’re on your path to trying to figure out how to be a better human being — because I believe that white people are born not being human. Like that actually, instead of color and black folks being dehumanized, that, actually, everyone is dehumanized [indecipherable] within white supremacy. That y’all are born into a life to not be human, and that’s what y’all are taught to do, to be demons.

So, in this particular way, white people are all racist, so I just want y’all to know that up front.<<<

—Ashleigh Shackelford—

https://youtu.be/2nupaP3IQwM

So it’s the new Catholicism and racism is the original sin?

If we look at older Church teachings. I met one black person on my mission. It was swhile after the Church got the "new revelation" about blacks and the priesthood, etc."

He was interested in the Church and he did mention the blacks and priesthood thing. He asked me a good one. Before this revelation would blacks have been allowed into heaven even without the priesthood and temple ordinances?

I had no way of answering him. So I asked my Mission Pres. who was a racist and bigot from S. AZ. I told the investigator I'd find out.

The MP told me, just tell him that when he died he would have become white if he was righteous.

I said to myself, NO DANG WAY! I just went and told him a simple yes. Then he asked then why would I need to join the Church and have the priesthood?

I needed three aspirins that night.

Yep. My dad said the same thing. Good blacks are granted the privilege to become light skinned!? Sheesh! I can't believe the conditioning it took to think that was OK.

I mean really... it's nothing more than a distraction.

Look at the shiny object! See you're under attack! It's.... fill in the blank: communists, socialists, illegal aliens, space aliens, black people, brown people, homosexuals, non-Christians, and on and on.

These people live on fuming and fumes. Seriously upset over every thing, but only for like a week before some other thing is offered up for them to get angry at.

They never ever pull back the curtain and ask, "Why if I'm supposed to be angry at these people is my life still awful anyway? Why is my standard of living so tenuous?"

Sigh.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2021 09:52AM by Tyson Dunn.

Nobody’s gonna tell me what to think except my pastor or cult leader.

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nobody’s gonna tell me what to think except my
> pastor or cult leader.

There's no need to repeat yourself.

So true.

If everyone is focused on social issues, that distracts them from caring about the bigger issue of dismantling democracy by those who want to override the voting process to maintain an autocratic view.

Seems to be working.

Soooooooo many people are gullible and drink the KoolAid. People never want to blame themselves for their own misgivings. Even if I am not a Church-goer anymore, I keep my eyes open for interesting stuff.

I have a good friend who works in SLC in the Church Office Bldg and another one who talks to me occasionally. If I gave you his name, you'd have heard of him.

The Church leaders give NO pratical advice to the members. It's just pray, pay your tithing, go to the temple, don't discuss politics, (all politics is good basically). I mean if they actually came out and said that the Republicans are totally against the tenets of Mormonism, membership would fall by 50% and UT would have mostly empty temples and chapels.

Ezra Taft Benson started the great rightward shift. I knew people who left the Church after the "blacks and priesthood" revelation. I can imagine what would have happened if it had been say in 1965.

I knew people in CA who were told by their Bishops to donate to the Church's anti prop8 campaign.

You can be a Latter-day Saint and think for yourself. You can decide for yourself, or else what is all this free agency stuff about. If the Church doesn't like it, then your free agency is out the window?

The Republicans are trying their dardnest to take away Americans' free agency, and many are quite happy to let them do it. It's never your fault, it's the Dems or the minorities, or the gays are coming, or they are coming to take your guns.

Give me a break. UT is just hopping on the wacko train. When it reaches the washed-out bridge they will go under just like the rest of them.

Don't trust teachers!

Can someone give me a ballpark on the year racism in America was no longer systemic?

2121

2050 in the best case scenario.

Truly the best case scenario--Earth purged of humanity.

Love the way you put quotes around global warming as if it isn't real simply because you don't accept it.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2380572,2380752#msg-2380752

There isn't a nickel's worth of difference between you, Free Man and Jordan.

Well, maybe the church cleared things up in 1977.

But, really, when do you think America did? I am interested in your opinion if you'd care to offer it up. Thanks -- :)

The point is that the United States is far from overcoming systemic racism.

Thanks for sharing your view.

I’m interested in cafiend’s opinion if he cares to share it.

It's implicit in his post in the Juneteenth thread, where he lists oppressed people in other countries but does not mention any in the United States. I'm not sure he believes there was systemic racism at any point after Emancipation; he surely does not think it exists today.

Being non-white can be a challenge, and maybe there was a time when all it meant was suffering, but based on what I know of the subject, via my own and my families' histories, a lot of us wouldn't trade away our melanin for anything less than the Holy Melchezadik Priesthood (accept no substitutes!).

How could I possibly be the same person (whom I just adore!) if I didn't have brown skin?


In my mind, there are two poster children for White Superiority: The Ivy League rich-girl sorority babe and the Southern barely-graduated-high-school, mouth-breathing, racist cracker.  I'm just grateful that they can't stand each other, else the lesser 'races' would be roadkill.

I believe that most intelligent Brown & Black people do the best they can to enjoy life, and are usually pretty much as successful and The Chosen Ones, but it's always nice when the rule-makers of society recognize that "something needs to be done."

I also believe that Racism may never go away.  It's useful in propping up a sagging ego: "Well, at least I'm not a damn (insert favorite racist predicate nominative)!"

Also, and not often featured as a 'plus', being of a lesser race gives one the opportunity to explain away a failure as being wrought by forces outside our control.

Which is worse, racism, i.e., hatred for a person based on skin color, or racism based on a national heritage?  Although to the victim, it hardly matters.



Also, as I opined, while diminishable, I don't see either of the racisms as candidates for elimination.  Racism is very much a convenience.  Who doesn't love convenience?

Maybe when all humans have a nice rich mocha color skin tone, and all national boundaries are erased, then maybe "factors beyond the individual's control" will cease to be items of contention/oppression ... Which probably means we will all need to be bald, too.


As a final aside, prior to the last century, ghawd was a complete and total racist. Screw ghawd, that mo/fo piece of shit racist!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a final aside, prior to the last century, ghawd
> was a complete and total racist. Screw ghawd,
> that mo/fo piece of shit racist!

Now if we can only get you to stop writing in paragraphs. . .

Which begs the question: When will the mormon church switch from white bread to rye bread, or barley, for the sacrament?

I suspect I may have, for the first time ever, achieved a "whoosh" on you with this one!

Wrong. I got the The Cat reference and how I practically quoted him, word for word, which makes sense, what with both of us being certified Native Americans.

I was just embarrassed and hoped it would go away . . .

Well then, I confess to a self-whoosh!

Look at what's happening in the "Mormon" states. Or where there are large concentrations. Hell will never free over in them, and of course in UT there's no global warming. God/Nature is showing them big time but it's just an every few year thing of course. Anybody need an AC unit out there?

The Day Nixon’s 50yo War on Minorities, disguised as a “War on Drugs” finally ends.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2021 03:28PM by schrodingerscat.

Gotta work on the math there, guy.

Sundown Towns. Ugh. Ought to be brought up in any school.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2021 02:38AM by snagglepuss.

There are two basic approaches to history: trying to accurately present what actually happened, and stories we tell to feel good about ourselves. Naturally, a lot of people prefer the latter.

Like they say, history is written by the winners. They craft it to make themselves the heroes who never did anything wrong. So when anyone comes along and says, "Wait, you've left out a lot of important stuff," the winners resist.

When we present past heroes as flawless rather than as complex, flawed humans, we ingrain the idea that imperfect people can't do good things.

“When we present past heroes as flawless rather than as complex, flawed humans, we ingrain the idea that imperfect people can't do good things.”

I kinda liked Disney’s Pocahontas.

The trouble with critical race theory is that it's being thrust on the rest of us by people who are making big bucks in stoking the flames of white guilt. See this is what's really happening for those who aren't following the behind the scenes action. We've got a bunch of white women (ie Robin Deangelo and other nuts) who got into the business of selling their sociology-philosophies to mega rich corporations all for big bucks, Currently corporate America, NEA, college campuses, and politicians are brimming over with supposed progressives, they lap this stuff up, and use it to virtue signal to other liberals in the establishment that they are up with the hip, and are in with the popular crowd,... the progressive. Management is basically buying cover.

But for middle class America those who have ordinary jobs and are just trying to survive, we are suppose to follow along and not ask questions because the establishment knows best, even though we are the ones that pay the price, the ones the suffer the consequences. Intellectuals never face the stupidity of their ideas, but we will.

We're fortunate that we have you here to reveal to us the "behind the scenes action" from your perch in Northern Utah.

Hmmmm, and no one ever made big bucks off of white supremacy, white privilege or plain old white-is-the-default-normal?

Touchė.

The thing is also that most people don't realize that the billionaires (who for the most part support the GOP, but only because they pay zero taxes). They and their media keep harping on it's the fault of the liberals, or the poor, or the foreigners or the blacks. It's always somebody else's fault.

The people lose their jobs, there is/was Covid, and the GOP totally botched it. They were the first to say hey let's get rid of masks, and vaccines are no big deal. If grandma dies, well she dies, right?

Keep the people ignorant. Don't let them think about anything else and they will be compliant. Don't let them make a decent wage or give them access to affordable healthcare.

Poor and sick people will still vote for us.

There is no "invasion" of liberals to colleges and corporations. Colleges are there to teach both sides and students can hear both sides. Except say at BYU or Liberty or any of the other "religious" schools.

Church Conferences offer no practical solutions to problems and never brought up the "politics" issue until members in UT and elsewhere were almost to the point of beating each other up over Trump.

When Trump won, the Church was all over him like flies on poop. Congratulations, come to UT and they fawned all over him. Biden won and it was crickets for a good few days....they know where their bread is buttered and that $120,000/year + med benefits paid for by the members comes from Republicans for the most part.

Mormons are taught to be moral, honest, OBEDIENT, and good people. To shun immorality, lies, corruption. But of course you have to support and sustain the law and those who run the country.

Then why is the Church doing just that? Or why do they do fire control after the fire has been burning for weeks or months? Does it take that long for God to wake Nelson up at 4 am so he can grab his note pad and write down the latest revelation?

Come on now. The Church needs to grow a pair and go back to saying no lying, don't support evil, don't support corruption and worry about your own salvation.

Not if Mary had an abortion or if Bryce and Hunter want to get married and live a monogamous relationship. Or if Juan is willing to work in UT picking tomatoes for less than an American would.

The Church could be a force for good in the world not just internally panicking at how to keep the dwindling numbers active.

Outlawing the teaching of systemic racism is pretty much the best example of systemic racism imaginable.

Oh the irony.

And touché for you. :)

. . . but what exactly, precisely, is it?
(Not being a wisea$$ or obstreperous or obstinate -- sincere here)

Darwin's theory of natural selection (evolution) is easy.
Can hold it in one hand, explain it thoroughly in a paragraph. Down to the DNA level.

Have researched critical race theory and just cannot get a grasp on what precisely it is.
Would like to be able to hold it with the same firmness that have on the theory of natural selection, before begin discussing.
Like to be illuminated.

I think that racism needs to be discussed, but when you use inflammatory phrases such as "white privilege" or "white fragility," then you are going to turn many if not most white people off. I don't think that you lift others up by putting yourself down, or by tolerating those who do.

Recently on a private teacher's forum, a black educator in the very early stages of his career, and with an advanced degree from a "near Ivy," chose to put urban teachers down by saying that we are not doing enough. I was dumbfounded by his remarks. In my career spanning a quarter century, I had never seen this kind of attitude before (most urban public school teachers put in 10-20+ hours of unpaid overtime each week, and to put it mildly, deal with a lot. By "deal with a lot," I mean students fighting, throwing furniture, cursing you out daily, etc. We all know that we are working far too hard, for too little money, to collectively put each other down.) I called him out on it. I told him that when he had 20+ years in the classroom, as I have done, to feel free to come back and make the same remark that we are not "doing enough." In turn, he chose to accuse me of "white privilege" -- for being, I don't know, white? Seriously? I chose to ignore that, and proceed with my points. As an aside, this man is moving on to an allied field, for which, IMO, he is much better suited.

If you choose to use that kind of language, a lot of people will quite rightfully tune you out. I personally have zero interest in being put down in any way, shape, or form. I've worked too hard for too long to tolerate that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2021 12:52PM by summer.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> but
> when you use inflammatory phrases such as "white
> privilege" or "white fragility,"
===============================

Reminiscent of Russia 1912 or Germany 1920.
Words are different; but the pattern is precisely the same.

Again - don't know what critical race theory is.
Perhaps it cannot be explained void of emotion. (If true, that's a clue)

But I do recognize this pattern.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...but when you use inflammatory phrases such as "white
> privilege" or "white fragility," then you are
> going to turn many if not most white people off.

Because we're so fragile and have had the privilege of not being called out for our racist crap.

Meanwhile we spent centuries calling non-white people anything we wanted.

olderelder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Because we're so fragile and have had the
> privilege of not being called out for our racist
> crap.
>
> Meanwhile we spent centuries calling non-white
> people anything we wanted.
===============================

Yet -- is there a hazard in singling out en bloc an entire subsection of humanity and ascribing to these a unitary characteristic?

Have we seen this story before?

Dr. No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yet -- is there a hazard in singling out en bloc
> an entire subsection of humanity and ascribing to
> these a unitary characteristic?

> Have we seen this story before?

Yes. What he wrote. (Shorter than mine).

olderelder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Meanwhile we spent centuries calling non-white
> people anything we wanted.

I am trying very hard to listen and understand the issues, situation and feelings.

But see: it's the "we" part that bothers me. It hurts. "I" haven't been doing anything for centuries. In the less than one century that I have existed I have not purposely hurt anybody on the basis of personal characteristics and realities they are not in control of and can't change. I have been aware since early teenage years of some of the basic issues around race in this world. I have had no power to change the world. I can only be responsible for my own choices.

I think it's entirely the wrong way to go, calling out people on the basis of their white skin, just as it's wrong to pre-judge and call out and injure people who are not white.

I grasp why it's being done. I know the pain of our collective history cannot be expunged. The injustice can never be satisfactorily recompensed.

I realize indeed that many white people, myself included, *are* privileged. So privileged we haven't even realized that we're privileged.

But to me, the colour of one's skin is a reality of birth that as individuals we obviously can not be held to account for as we had nothing to do with it, no choice in the matter. All we can be judged for is our own decisions and actions.

My niece's father is not white. I have been involved in her life since her birth, we socialize regularly and spend holidays together. This past Christmas she referred to me in public as "some white woman". That hurt. It's hard for me to go back to the way I thought things were between us. I understand her identification with the urgent societal upheaval of this moment but I don't deserve that from her. I have never treated her differently on the basis of skin colour.

And yes, I get the irony of me whining about being judged on and classified by my skin colour.

I can't help, at all, what has happened in our civilization in the past. I have no particular major influence over society at the present time. Of course, I am horrified and sorrowful over many aspects of human history. We have never defaulted to the kind and gentle nature I would prefer to see from, and for, everyone. All I can control is my own beliefs and actions.

Yeah, I'm "some white woman". Not much I can do about that.

Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. Personally, I find the kind of rhetoric I was talking about divisive and unhelpful.

With regard to your niece, I would talk to her about it, and tell her that you've been nothing but kind to her, and how hurtful her remark was.

Thanks, summer.

I haven't seen her since the incident. First time in my life I'm not trying to mend a breech. That was a deep wound.

>>Because we're so fragile and have had the privilege of not being called out for our racist crap. Meanwhile we spent centuries calling non-white people anything we wanted.

I'm just keeping it real. When you do name-calling, or put downs, people are going to tune you out. They are going to quit listening. And isn't the whole point of the matter to get people to listen?

In teacher training, we are instructed to never put things in negative terms. So instead of, "Don't run," you say, "Please walk." People don't respond very well to things that are framed in a negative manner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2021 01:52PM by summer.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...They are going to quit listening.
> And isn't the whole point of the matter to get
> people to listen?

The people who need to listen haven't been listening when the issues were expressed in a gentle manner.

A very good point.

Not everyone will. But the art of persuasion is a long game.

summer, it's been 150 years. How long is the "long game?"

Very long. Apparently.

Things have improved considerably from when I was a young girl watching Dr. King make his "I have a dream" speech on TV. C'mon, now, I'm old, but not *that* old. lol