Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
In a recent thread on the topic of Mormon garments being in the news, in my response I included the following quote:
“If she [a Mormon woman] had her choice, she said, she would prefer to wear a cross necklace, or a ring — popular among young church members — with the letters CTR, a reference to the motto “Choose the Right,” a reminder to make ethical choices. “There are so many different ways to remind myself of what I’ve promised,” Perez said. “I don’t need that to be through my underwear.”
I was going to state that I was surprised that Mormons would wear a cross but then caught myself, so didn’t include that comment, thinking I was getting them mixed up with JWs. Today I looked it up and confirmed that, indeed, both Mormons and JWs avoid using the cross as a symbol of their faith, for different reasons. I had forgotten it was both of them. So they have that in common, along with many other aspects of each religion.
From JW.org:
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/cross-belief/
“Many people view the cross as the universal symbol of Christianity. Although Jehovah’s Witnesses are Christians, we do not use the cross in our worship. Why not?
“One reason is that the Bible indicates that Jesus did not die on a cross but rather on a simple stake. Moreover, the Bible strongly warns Christians to “flee from idolatry,” which would mean not using the cross in worship.—1 Corinthians 10:14; 1 John 5:21.
“Significantly, Jesus said: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (John 13:34, 35) Jesus thereby indicated that self-sacrificing love—not the cross or any other image—would identify his true followers.”
---
The JW belief that Jesus did not die on a cross is given as one reason they avoid using it as a symbol, because they feel it is meaningless. Another reason is that they want to distinguish themselves from mainstream Christianity, as they believe it is “Babylon the Great”, “a world empire of false religion”, under Satan’s control. (This is why they do not participate in ecumenical activities or relationships with other denominations).
From LDS site: (by Elder Gregory A. Schwitzer of the Seventy, July 2011)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2011/07/the-meaning-of-the-cross-for-latter-day-saints?lang=eng
“All of us have passed by churches that have a cross on their steeples or cupolas, and we’ve all seen people wearing a necklace with a cross, indicating they are Christian or a member of a certain Christian denomination. Some of our new members may even continue to wear a cross, feeling that it connects them with their past or other religious traditions.
“We may wonder why we Latter-day Saints don’t place a cross on our churches or wear a cross to show that we are Christians, thereby making it easier for others to identify in whom we believe. Is the cross important to our faith?
“The answer is an unequivocal yes! The Redeemer’s suffering on the cross is vitally important to us and is an inseparable part of the Atonement, through which He suffered and died for our sins and thereby provided us with a clear path to salvation and exaltation. The Savior was clear when He stated that in following Him we should take upon ourselves a cross—not the Roman cross that was the instrument of death but our own cross, whereby we present a sacrifice to the Lord of our own heart to be obedient to His commandments.
“And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me,” Jesus said, “is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10:38).
“In his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul indicated that the “preaching of the cross … is the power of God” (1 Corinthians 1:18). We understand through this scripture that the meaning of the cross is much deeper than just a symbol or outward sign, especially for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is the preaching of what happened on the cross that is more important than the symbol of the cross.”
…
“The message of the gospel of Jesus Christ includes what happened on the cross, but this message and meaning is within each of us and requires no external symbol to manifest our faith. Our cross is the giving up of worldly sins and following the Savior with a humble heart and an obedient spirit.”
---
I worry about myself when I forget details like this – that both groups avoid using the cross as a symbol of their faith. Maybe my brain is trying to protect me from remembering my self-inflicted injuries of joining not one but two cultic groups. Like I didn’t learn the first time. After being a JW for a few years, I subsequently consented to being baptized by the Mormons. A double convert. Friends got me in both times. I need to watch that. As more time goes by I feel increasingly stupid for having chosen to join both groups. I don’t mention it anywhere other than here. I’m even embarrassed here, where I don’t know the vast majority of you in person. For sure I didn’t do my homework before choosing to join. I did enjoy being with my JW friends and still think fondly of one of my JW boyfriends (who married my best JW friend, same name as me – ooh, it hurt). They all completely shunned me after I left. I didn’t know much about that aspect of their belief system until it happened to me. That hurt too. I never enjoyed being a Mormon. I still can’t believe I let them talk me into getting baptized. One big difference between the two groups is that with JWs they don’t want you to get baptized before you take many lessons and are fully active as well as knowing all about their doctrine (you are questioned on doctrine by male elders before baptism is allowed). With Mormons I noted that they pushed baptism first, and quickly, then you can ask questions – which nobody will answer. There will be expectations but no explanations. The Mormons I knew didn’t always stick to the truth in their efforts to baptize. I was a bit clueless and slow to realize that, both on my own behalf and in regard to other potential converts as well.
I’ve mentioned here often my disaster of a Mormon baptism, involving a mean nasty bishop and a misunderstanding that completely humiliated me. By contrast, my JW baptism, when I knew their doctrine and believed it, and in front of all my friends, felt like a meaningful religious experience and it meant a lot to me for a good few years. I didn’t realize, because it was subtle, that the religion was parting me from my non-JW friends and from my family. When a family crisis forced me to choose between the religion and my family, I, thankfully, chose family. It would have been awful to have been separated throughout our lives, as the JWs wanted. That is a terrible aspect of their belief system.
I don’t recall knowing that Mormons don’t use the cross. I must have done and have just forgotten. My brain must be rusting.
It’s very interesting though, isn’t it, that young LDS women, according to the article posted in the other thread yesterday, now are starting to question foundational Mormon beliefs and one woman quoted in the article said she would prefer to use a cross to signify her beliefs, rather than the Mormon g’s.
Here’s the thread from yesterday about Mormon garments being in the news:
https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2384886,2384886#msg-2384886
Here's a thread from today about Mormons and the cross:
https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2385022,2385022#msg-2385022
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2021 04:10PM by Nightingale.
“If she [a Mormon woman] had her choice, she said, she would prefer to wear a cross necklace, or a ring — popular among young church members — with the letters CTR, a reference to the motto “Choose the Right,” a reminder to make ethical choices. “There are so many different ways to remind myself of what I’ve promised,” Perez said. “I don’t need that to be through my underwear.”
I was going to state that I was surprised that Mormons would wear a cross but then caught myself, so didn’t include that comment, thinking I was getting them mixed up with JWs. Today I looked it up and confirmed that, indeed, both Mormons and JWs avoid using the cross as a symbol of their faith, for different reasons. I had forgotten it was both of them. So they have that in common, along with many other aspects of each religion.
From JW.org:
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/cross-belief/
“Many people view the cross as the universal symbol of Christianity. Although Jehovah’s Witnesses are Christians, we do not use the cross in our worship. Why not?
“One reason is that the Bible indicates that Jesus did not die on a cross but rather on a simple stake. Moreover, the Bible strongly warns Christians to “flee from idolatry,” which would mean not using the cross in worship.—1 Corinthians 10:14; 1 John 5:21.
“Significantly, Jesus said: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (John 13:34, 35) Jesus thereby indicated that self-sacrificing love—not the cross or any other image—would identify his true followers.”
---
The JW belief that Jesus did not die on a cross is given as one reason they avoid using it as a symbol, because they feel it is meaningless. Another reason is that they want to distinguish themselves from mainstream Christianity, as they believe it is “Babylon the Great”, “a world empire of false religion”, under Satan’s control. (This is why they do not participate in ecumenical activities or relationships with other denominations).
From LDS site: (by Elder Gregory A. Schwitzer of the Seventy, July 2011)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2011/07/the-meaning-of-the-cross-for-latter-day-saints?lang=eng
“All of us have passed by churches that have a cross on their steeples or cupolas, and we’ve all seen people wearing a necklace with a cross, indicating they are Christian or a member of a certain Christian denomination. Some of our new members may even continue to wear a cross, feeling that it connects them with their past or other religious traditions.
“We may wonder why we Latter-day Saints don’t place a cross on our churches or wear a cross to show that we are Christians, thereby making it easier for others to identify in whom we believe. Is the cross important to our faith?
“The answer is an unequivocal yes! The Redeemer’s suffering on the cross is vitally important to us and is an inseparable part of the Atonement, through which He suffered and died for our sins and thereby provided us with a clear path to salvation and exaltation. The Savior was clear when He stated that in following Him we should take upon ourselves a cross—not the Roman cross that was the instrument of death but our own cross, whereby we present a sacrifice to the Lord of our own heart to be obedient to His commandments.
“And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me,” Jesus said, “is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10:38).
“In his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul indicated that the “preaching of the cross … is the power of God” (1 Corinthians 1:18). We understand through this scripture that the meaning of the cross is much deeper than just a symbol or outward sign, especially for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is the preaching of what happened on the cross that is more important than the symbol of the cross.”
…
“The message of the gospel of Jesus Christ includes what happened on the cross, but this message and meaning is within each of us and requires no external symbol to manifest our faith. Our cross is the giving up of worldly sins and following the Savior with a humble heart and an obedient spirit.”
---
I worry about myself when I forget details like this – that both groups avoid using the cross as a symbol of their faith. Maybe my brain is trying to protect me from remembering my self-inflicted injuries of joining not one but two cultic groups. Like I didn’t learn the first time. After being a JW for a few years, I subsequently consented to being baptized by the Mormons. A double convert. Friends got me in both times. I need to watch that. As more time goes by I feel increasingly stupid for having chosen to join both groups. I don’t mention it anywhere other than here. I’m even embarrassed here, where I don’t know the vast majority of you in person. For sure I didn’t do my homework before choosing to join. I did enjoy being with my JW friends and still think fondly of one of my JW boyfriends (who married my best JW friend, same name as me – ooh, it hurt). They all completely shunned me after I left. I didn’t know much about that aspect of their belief system until it happened to me. That hurt too. I never enjoyed being a Mormon. I still can’t believe I let them talk me into getting baptized. One big difference between the two groups is that with JWs they don’t want you to get baptized before you take many lessons and are fully active as well as knowing all about their doctrine (you are questioned on doctrine by male elders before baptism is allowed). With Mormons I noted that they pushed baptism first, and quickly, then you can ask questions – which nobody will answer. There will be expectations but no explanations. The Mormons I knew didn’t always stick to the truth in their efforts to baptize. I was a bit clueless and slow to realize that, both on my own behalf and in regard to other potential converts as well.
I’ve mentioned here often my disaster of a Mormon baptism, involving a mean nasty bishop and a misunderstanding that completely humiliated me. By contrast, my JW baptism, when I knew their doctrine and believed it, and in front of all my friends, felt like a meaningful religious experience and it meant a lot to me for a good few years. I didn’t realize, because it was subtle, that the religion was parting me from my non-JW friends and from my family. When a family crisis forced me to choose between the religion and my family, I, thankfully, chose family. It would have been awful to have been separated throughout our lives, as the JWs wanted. That is a terrible aspect of their belief system.
I don’t recall knowing that Mormons don’t use the cross. I must have done and have just forgotten. My brain must be rusting.
It’s very interesting though, isn’t it, that young LDS women, according to the article posted in the other thread yesterday, now are starting to question foundational Mormon beliefs and one woman quoted in the article said she would prefer to use a cross to signify her beliefs, rather than the Mormon g’s.
Here’s the thread from yesterday about Mormon garments being in the news:
https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2384886,2384886#msg-2384886
Here's a thread from today about Mormons and the cross:
https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2385022,2385022#msg-2385022
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2021 04:10PM by Nightingale.
Nightingale what Bible reference do JWs use to determine that it was a stake (by which I assume a single post) as opposed to a cross? Is it from their own Bible translation?
Hi kentish.
JWs believe the cross is a pagan symbol. Too, they believe it is idolatry to use it. Therefore, they shun it.
They do use their own Bible translation (New World Translation/NWT) but the scriptures that warn against idolatry are translated almost the same in the NWT as in the NIV (New International Version, which I use now, and in the KJV in effect). Their scriptures about idolatry include 1 Corinthians 10:14 and 1 John 5:21 and are close to the KJV rendering (flee from idolatry, keep yourself from idols).
They use John 13: 34, 35 to teach that the mark of disciples is not the cross or an image but love. The NWT states: “A new command I give you: Love one another. … By this [loving each other] everyone will know that you are my disciples…”
They believe that Jesus died on a “torture stake” (and some JW references state he was impaled). Their reason for this, they say, is that the Greek word ‘stauros’ means “an upright stake”. There is no evidence of a crossbeam, they say (which would make it a cross if present).
They say that the Greek word for cross in the Bible literally translates to “stake” and “tree”. Non-JWs do acknowledge this to be true, I believe. I think the idea of the cross and the crucifixion of Jesus came from that method of execution being used by the Romans.
Matthew 27:32-40 (NWT):
“As they were going out, they found a man of Cy·reʹne named Simon. This man they compelled into service to carry his torture stake.
“And when they came to a place called Golʹgo·tha, that is, Skull Place,
“They gave him wine mixed with gall to drink; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it.
“When they had nailed him to the stake, they distributed his outer garments by casting lots
“And they sat there keeping watch over him.
“They also posted above his head the charge against him, in writing: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.
“Then two robbers were put on stakes alongside him, one on his right and one on his left.
“And those passing by spoke abusively of him, shaking their heads
“And saying: “You who would throw down the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!”
Here are the same passages in the NIV – note that every reference to “torture stake” in the NWT above is “cross” in the NIV (and other Christian versions):
32 As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross. 33 They came to a place called Golgotha (which means “the place of the skull”).
34 There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 36 And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37 Above his head they placed the written charge against him: this is Jesus, the king of the Jews.
38 Two rebels were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!”
---
So, to answer your question about Bible versions, kentish, yes, the JWs do, in many places, change wording in their own Bible version. They do give explanations for why, if people bother to compare or research. You have to be quite sharp to spot the differences in connotations and thereby meanings of words, which translate (literally, ha) into their doctrines.
Notice how when it’s a teaching they agree with, eg: “idolatry”, those scriptures are almost identical to the standard Christian versions. When it’s a tenet they disagree with, they alter their “translation” so it’s in line with their own doctrine. It can be subtle enough to be unnoticeable by their adherents and also prospective converts. “What’s in a name..” or a word, eh? A lot, as it happens.
JWs say why wear a cross, the “instrument of torture”. They say that as Jesus didn’t die on a cross it’s meaningless to revere the cross, idolatry even. And, as above, idolatry is a grave sin, they teach (as it is considered by Christians too).
I think part of their teaching about the cross is due to wanting to differentiate themselves from other Christian denominations. So they dispense with the cross by using their Greek word (stauros, literally stake or tree) and then use "stake" in their own version of the Bible. It’s a small step from there to their followers (including recent and prospective converts) to think that the word stake is actually in the standard Bible translations or else that the JW “translation” is more accurate than other Bible versions. Once you separate people with something so basic, yet meaningful and of supposed import, you can follow up with other divergent ideas as to what “true Christianity” is in terms of belief and practice.
JW article about using the cross as a symbol:
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/awake-no2-2017-april/the-cross-is-it-biblical/
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2021 06:16PM by Nightingale.
JWs believe the cross is a pagan symbol. Too, they believe it is idolatry to use it. Therefore, they shun it.
They do use their own Bible translation (New World Translation/NWT) but the scriptures that warn against idolatry are translated almost the same in the NWT as in the NIV (New International Version, which I use now, and in the KJV in effect). Their scriptures about idolatry include 1 Corinthians 10:14 and 1 John 5:21 and are close to the KJV rendering (flee from idolatry, keep yourself from idols).
They use John 13: 34, 35 to teach that the mark of disciples is not the cross or an image but love. The NWT states: “A new command I give you: Love one another. … By this [loving each other] everyone will know that you are my disciples…”
They believe that Jesus died on a “torture stake” (and some JW references state he was impaled). Their reason for this, they say, is that the Greek word ‘stauros’ means “an upright stake”. There is no evidence of a crossbeam, they say (which would make it a cross if present).
They say that the Greek word for cross in the Bible literally translates to “stake” and “tree”. Non-JWs do acknowledge this to be true, I believe. I think the idea of the cross and the crucifixion of Jesus came from that method of execution being used by the Romans.
Matthew 27:32-40 (NWT):
“As they were going out, they found a man of Cy·reʹne named Simon. This man they compelled into service to carry his torture stake.
“And when they came to a place called Golʹgo·tha, that is, Skull Place,
“They gave him wine mixed with gall to drink; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it.
“When they had nailed him to the stake, they distributed his outer garments by casting lots
“And they sat there keeping watch over him.
“They also posted above his head the charge against him, in writing: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.
“Then two robbers were put on stakes alongside him, one on his right and one on his left.
“And those passing by spoke abusively of him, shaking their heads
“And saying: “You who would throw down the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!”
Here are the same passages in the NIV – note that every reference to “torture stake” in the NWT above is “cross” in the NIV (and other Christian versions):
32 As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross. 33 They came to a place called Golgotha (which means “the place of the skull”).
34 There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 36 And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37 Above his head they placed the written charge against him: this is Jesus, the king of the Jews.
38 Two rebels were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!”
---
So, to answer your question about Bible versions, kentish, yes, the JWs do, in many places, change wording in their own Bible version. They do give explanations for why, if people bother to compare or research. You have to be quite sharp to spot the differences in connotations and thereby meanings of words, which translate (literally, ha) into their doctrines.
Notice how when it’s a teaching they agree with, eg: “idolatry”, those scriptures are almost identical to the standard Christian versions. When it’s a tenet they disagree with, they alter their “translation” so it’s in line with their own doctrine. It can be subtle enough to be unnoticeable by their adherents and also prospective converts. “What’s in a name..” or a word, eh? A lot, as it happens.
JWs say why wear a cross, the “instrument of torture”. They say that as Jesus didn’t die on a cross it’s meaningless to revere the cross, idolatry even. And, as above, idolatry is a grave sin, they teach (as it is considered by Christians too).
I think part of their teaching about the cross is due to wanting to differentiate themselves from other Christian denominations. So they dispense with the cross by using their Greek word (stauros, literally stake or tree) and then use "stake" in their own version of the Bible. It’s a small step from there to their followers (including recent and prospective converts) to think that the word stake is actually in the standard Bible translations or else that the JW “translation” is more accurate than other Bible versions. Once you separate people with something so basic, yet meaningful and of supposed import, you can follow up with other divergent ideas as to what “true Christianity” is in terms of belief and practice.
JW article about using the cross as a symbol:
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/awake-no2-2017-april/the-cross-is-it-biblical/
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2021 06:16PM by Nightingale.
The notion that Jesus was hung on a tree is silly; that's just a metaphor for what we know the Romans did.
But it is true that the cross is a pagan symbol. It's actually an Indo-European motif, a version of the Swastika (a bent cross) and the Greek key, all of which are symbols of the sun as it wheels through the sky. The Sky God was in fact top of the heap when those peoples moved out of the Eurasian steppe and into almost all regions from India to Ireland and Norway.
The cross was present in Canaan/Israel before Christ, possibly because of the Philistines' influence, so the Christians may have adopted it there, or it may have become more prominent as the nascent faith spread into the Roman and Greek worlds. Religiously that's neither here nor there since everything from the cross to the fish to paintings and even the written word "God" are symbolic "idols" in the strict sense.
But it is true that the cross is a pagan symbol. It's actually an Indo-European motif, a version of the Swastika (a bent cross) and the Greek key, all of which are symbols of the sun as it wheels through the sky. The Sky God was in fact top of the heap when those peoples moved out of the Eurasian steppe and into almost all regions from India to Ireland and Norway.
The cross was present in Canaan/Israel before Christ, possibly because of the Philistines' influence, so the Christians may have adopted it there, or it may have become more prominent as the nascent faith spread into the Roman and Greek worlds. Religiously that's neither here nor there since everything from the cross to the fish to paintings and even the written word "God" are symbolic "idols" in the strict sense.
So it is down to interpretation of the Greek word. Gnat and camel come to mind.
kentish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So it is down to interpretation of the Greek word.
> Gnat and camel come to mind.
LOL
And the JW idea that there's only one chosen people and it is they.
And it's not a large number considering all the humans who have ever been born.
That's why the Mormon proxy baptism idea makes them seem more inclusive and loving. Wanting to save everybody.
Or something like that.
And, apparently, from the Hitler question on another current thread (when was he proxied), the Mormon Church will take anybody into its ranks.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2021 08:04PM by Nightingale.
-------------------------------------------------------
> So it is down to interpretation of the Greek word.
> Gnat and camel come to mind.
LOL
And the JW idea that there's only one chosen people and it is they.
And it's not a large number considering all the humans who have ever been born.
That's why the Mormon proxy baptism idea makes them seem more inclusive and loving. Wanting to save everybody.
Or something like that.
And, apparently, from the Hitler question on another current thread (when was he proxied), the Mormon Church will take anybody into its ranks.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2021 08:04PM by Nightingale.
Yeah, right.
As I glean from following posts on this board, Mormons long eschewed the Cross as a symbol. During this time, they differentiated themselves from orthodox Christians, even proclaiming "No, we're not Christian--we're Mormons."
That, I gather, has slipped down the Memory Hole, and it's "Don't call us 'Mormons,' we're 'CHRISTIANS.'"
Yeah, right.
You members with your ear to the ecclesiastical ground are better positioned to tell me if CoJCoLdS members are "picking up the Cross" (fashion-wise, not theologically, of course).
As I glean from following posts on this board, Mormons long eschewed the Cross as a symbol. During this time, they differentiated themselves from orthodox Christians, even proclaiming "No, we're not Christian--we're Mormons."
That, I gather, has slipped down the Memory Hole, and it's "Don't call us 'Mormons,' we're 'CHRISTIANS.'"
Yeah, right.
You members with your ear to the ecclesiastical ground are better positioned to tell me if CoJCoLdS members are "picking up the Cross" (fashion-wise, not theologically, of course).
I once heard a comedian say that wearing a little cross around your neck to honor Jesus is like wearing a little rifle on your neck to honor John F. Kennedy.
I guess it would be if those who give such honor to Kennedy did so out of faith that he had provided the kind of salvation attributed to Jesus.