This anecdote was inspired by the one written by the lady whose BIL tried to manipulate her and her husband into watching a "family movie" by bringing their 4 year old child.

Picture it, Christmas 2004.

I had been married to my husband for barely two years. I had met his two daughters and former stepson once, during the summer of 2003. My husband's TBM ex and her new husband (#3) lived with the kids on the other side of the country. Ex was being a real pain in the ass about visitation, but as I had only met the kids once, I wasn't as anguished about it as my husband was.

My husband was trying really hard to nail down visitation with his daughters. He truly loved his kids and wanted to see them, but his ex kept shooting down all his proposed visitations. Finally, she proposed that my husband and I fly from VA to AZ for Thanksgiving and enjoy the holiday at her house. I vetoed that idea because I love Thanksgiving and I had no desire to spend it with my husband's ex wife. I felt it would be a disaster.

Then the ex proposed that she and her husband and the kids (a son from her first marriage, my husband's daughters, and her newborn from #3) drive to Tennessee to spend Christmas with my husband's dad and stepmother. She informed my husband that since she had the kids, she and her husband would be staying at my in-laws' house. We, on the other hand, were expected to get a hotel room. BTW, she never asked the in-laws how they felt about this arrangement. She just announced it as if it were law.

No one ever asked me how I felt about this arrangement. I was just expected to show up and shut up. I'm pretty certain that Ex thought I would go along with her plans without too much protest because I "wouldn't want to make a scene". And I almost did consent to go... but then it occurred to me that we were broke and couldn't really couldn't afford to go to TN. Moreover, I had at that point pretty much sworn off holiday gatherings with my own family because of an incident that happened Christmas 2003. I had no desire to spend the holidays with my husband's ex wife who, at that point, had not shown me one iota of respect.

I knew it would be a guaranteed bad time with me under the microscope and probably harassed for days. It wouldn't make a difference to my husband's family or kids; they just wanted me to be there to make things look "normal". And if I happened to blow my top, making myself look bad to the in-laws and the kids, so much the better. Even if I managed to keep a lid on my temper, I would have been miserable. Put it this way... if I didn't get really angry and have an outburst, my compliance would only give the Ex "permission" to arrange another Christmas gathering, which was not something I was interested in doing for years on end. So I told my husband to go to TN and see his kids. I would stay home in VA and take care of our dogs, saving us boarding fees and plane fare, since we didn't have time for a road trip.

My husband came back to VA on Christmas Eve. He said it was great to see his kids, except for the fact that the younger one was extremely alienated and wouldn't speak to him. The ex's husband was completely disrespectful to my husband in his own father's home. Ex acted like she was upset that I didn't come and join in this little "party", which I know had nothing to do with family solidarity and everything to do with Ex wanting to "put me in my place" as the "interloper".

Sadly, the Ex decided after that Christmas visit that my husband couldn't see his daughters anymore. She successfully alienated them so that in 2006, they finally sent him letters disowning him. A few months before those letters arrived, Ex sent my husband a letter, asking him to keep some "secrets" about what the kids thought of me. The kids met me once in 2003, spent less than 48 hours, and had a great time. But according to Ex, they hated me and thought I was a "bad influence" because I'm not LDS.

My husband's kids are thoroughly indoctrinated into the LDS lifestyle. Younger SD has a blog that is so over-the-top TBM that it's scary. My husband found it and realized his daughter is completely radicalized.

Now... I know a lot of people would tell me that I should have "sucked it up" and gone to spend Christmas with my husband's ex wife. But I strongly believe that giving in to passive aggressive, manipulative tactics only encourages the same behavior. I doubt my husband's girls would have "liked" me no matter what I did. Their mother has programmed them to hate their father and anyone connected with him.

For a long time, I felt a little guilty about skipping Christmas in 2004, but now I know I did the right thing. Cooperating would have had no positive effect... it would have only given the Ex "permission" to keep trying to control me and my husband.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2011 10:20PM by knotheadusc.

You took the only sensible and the right decision.

Her idea was warped and sick.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2011 10:13PM by matt.

Thanks for that, matt. My FIL and his wife (hubby's stepmom) were pretty upset with me for awhile. But we visited them in 2010 and cleared the air. I told them to their faces that I didn't skip Christmas because I wanted to snub them, but because I felt it would be a disaster. And I thought that the Ex's plan to stage a drama in their home was disrespectful. I knew that it would be plenty tense with my husband and ex's third victim in the house together. I can guarantee that my presence would not have made things better.

After I explained and told them flat out I wasn't dissing them, my husband's dad and stepmom were cool about it. FIL told me I had made the right decision. And ultimately, though it led to the kids' disowning my husband and family, it also put a stop to the Ex's manipulation and exploitation tactics. When the kids' tried to disown my husband in 2006 and suggested that #3 adopt them, the in laws finally started to see her crazy side. They finally realized that she had been telling them lies and using them for many years. She is now persona non grata.

Kids probably would have "disowned" them anyway... they haven't spoken to my husband's mother in a very long time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2011 10:20PM by knotheadusc.

Wow, I'm with you on this. Seems to me that you and you alone can be the judge of your decision making process. (Bigred is coming off as dogmatic, judgmental, and insensitive.)

No, you should not have sucked it up. You made the right decision by giving your husband time with his kids and staying away from her manipulation. You only met them once and their mom was already conditioning them to hate you, if you had gone you would have fallen right into her trap of being the evil step-mother as the kids definantly would have seen you as an interloper. She is a manipulator and there seem to be many reasons she is on husband #3.

It is such a shame that she has alienated your husband's children from him. Hopefully over time when they break away from mom they will wake up a little. There are people on this board who were once die hard tbms so there is hope.

LochNessie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, you should not have sucked it up. You made the
> right decision by giving your husband time with
> his kids and staying away from her manipulation.
> You only met them once and their mom was already
> conditioning them to hate you, if you had gone you
> would have fallen right into her trap of being the
> evil step-mother as the kids definantly would have
> seen you as an interloper. She is a manipulator
> and there seem to be many reasons she is on
> husband #3.
>
> It is such a shame that she has alienated your
> husband's children from him. Hopefully over time
> when they break away from mom they will wake up a
> little. There are people on this board who were
> once die hard tbms so there is hope.


I am inclined to disagree. Who cares what their mom is doing, this was about a father seeing his children. Good grief it was not about her.

And he did see his children. He saw them without having to worry about his wife being upset. He spent several days with them, only having to deal with interference from his ex wife instead of both his ex AND his current wife.

No, it wasn't about me, but had I been there, it would have become all about me.

You are way out of line.

Yes, he saw his children, but missed Christmas with them because his wife was unwilling to set aside her own pride. The end result is that he has no relationship with them at all now. If you had chosen to have a good attitude there would have been no problem dealing with you - as you just admitted - you would have made it all about you.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2011 12:29AM by bigred.

and the whole back story between her husband and his ex-wife.

You are completely and totally off base accusing knothead of being the reason the children disowned their father.

So, get a clue, or shut it.

knotheadusc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cooperating would have had no
> positive effect... it would have only given the Ex
> "permission" to keep trying to control me and my
> husband.


You are making this up - you did not cooperate and you will never know what kind of effect it would have had. You thinking it would have had no positive effect is your way of justifying what you did. Right or wrong - you will never know. When it comes to my ex having a relationship with his kids, I will never get in the way, but I am not like a lot of ex's I have heard of.

You may have had a positive influence, but you will never know. I am a bit inclined to agree that 'no good would have come of it' it is pretty clear that was your intention all along - based on results.

I am also certain you would not have had a good time - you had no intention of doing so. You can only control you and making shit up to justify your behavior is only that - making it up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2011 10:55PM by bigred.

Seriously?

You don't even know me, bigred, and you don't know my husband's sick ex wife. Do not presume to tell me what my intention was because you don't know what you're talking about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2011 10:55PM by knotheadusc.

I can tell what your intention is - you wrote it loud and clear. Results never lie,

Whatever, bigred.

Believe what you want to believe, but you would be wrong.

knotheadusc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Whatever, bigred.
>
> Believe what you want to believe, but you would be
> wrong.


It is not a belief, RESULTS NEVER LIE.....it is not my belief, it is a fact. If you want to see what your true intention is - look at your results, in every aspect of life.

You're wrong and your comments have no basis in reality. Fuck off.

bigred Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> knotheadusc Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Whatever, bigred.
> >
> > Believe what you want to believe, but you would
> be
> > wrong.
>
>
> It is not a belief, RESULTS NEVER LIE.....it is
> not my belief, it is a fact. If you want to see
> what your true intention is - look at your
> results, in every aspect of life.

Got attitude, much, bigred? The OP set boundaries, which is something you should work on learning.

No attitude at all, I am just saying that she was so sure it would be bad that she got to be right. Sheesh - tell me to fuck off if that makes you feel better. IMO this is a case of an unwillingness to be accountable. The outcome may have been much more positive had she set boundaries while still going. One will never know and speculation is all that is going on here. IMO pridefulness got in the way of everything. The end result is that her DH has no relationship with his children and IMO that is a tragedy.

Feel free to blast me, but get accountable here and stop acting like the victim.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2011 12:31AM by bigred.

I don't know if the OP made the right decision or not and I am not sure what I would have done in the same circumstances, but the point is that it was her decision and she is the only one who was actually there. Presumably she knows more about the situation and the possible repercussions than we do.

Absolutely. I am not asking anyone to "agree" with what I did. The fact is, a lot of people didn't agree with what I did. I second guessed my decision myself for awhile, until it became very clear that the Christmas gathering was a trap set by a narcissist who sought to control me and my husband.

Here are the facts. My husband's ex has a long history of putting people in awkward situations and exploiting them. A year before my husband and I met, the Ex served my husband divorce papers at his father's house over Easter. The children were there for "that" little spectacle, too.

I did not plan that Christmas gathering. I was just expected to attend, whether I wanted to be there or not. Visitation of the kids was an issue that was between my husband and his ex wife. I had nothing to do with it. I am not their parent and THAT was made abundantly clear from the very beginning.

I would have liked to have had a relationship with them, but I wasn't about to have one on my husband's ex wife's terms. That would have set us up for years of her violating boundaries.

It seems to me that if the Ex wanted me to "bond" with her and her husband, along with the kids, she would have picked a holiday with fewer expectations, less religious significance, less pressure, and less stress-- say, Memorial Day or July 4th. She would have chosen a neutral location. She would have asked ALL of the adults who were involved if they agreed with the arrangements, instead of just expecting everyone to comply with her demands without question. She would have approached this situation with a lot more respect for EVERYONE, not just me.

The fact that the ex has given your husband so much trouble over visitation (to the point of stopping it altogether) means that she doesn't want to let the kids out of her sight, influence, and control. After all, the kids might see one of the adults in their lives drinking a coffee without any guilt whatsoever, and we can't have that, now can we?

My heart hurts for your husband. Keeping his kids away from him, along with alienating their affection for him, is just all kinds of wrong. There is no excuse for that. That makes her the "Queen of Mean" in my book. This was going on long before that particular holiday came up.

You were wise to steer clear of her. No good was going to come of it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2011 11:34PM by summer.

You took a major source of stress away from everyone concerned by staying home and since you did so willingly and sent your husband off willingly, you didn't create a NEW source of stress. And given that this woman alienated your husband's daughters from him (a most UNloving act), I think your assessment of her motives is spot on.

Perhaps one day the girls will start thinking for themselves. While there's life there's hope, right?

>The end result is that her DH has no relationship with his >children and IMO that is a tragedy.

Really? The conclusion you draw Bigred, that the disruption in the relationship between her husband and his children is a direct result of her not attending that family event, seems absolutely preposterous.

I get where you are coming from in the whole "results never lie" thing. I'm vaguely familiar with it, and though I can't remember where it comes from, it sure sounds familiar. And I would suggest that just because you follow some group or teacher who tells you such things, don't think it gives you the wisdom or the right to make claims about other people and their lives based on some popular philosophy, no matter how much you believe in it. That makes you sound like a TBM, though I'm guessing that's not your intent.

That's not what I'm saying, what I am saying is that her attitude and attendance could or could not have made a difference. His children have been told to demonize her and she did not show her face to present anything different. Had she gone and chosen to act like an adult, they would have seen she is not the horrible person their mother has told them she is. They did not get that chance because she refused to attend. I am just not one to say that pouting, stomping your feet, and saying I will not set aside my own pride for the sake of my husbands children is a good thing. You all can say that all you want, I just don't agree.

ETA - Many divorced couples are setting aside their differences and attending events together in order to create a win/win. My ex and I do this, my daughter and her ex and her new bf's ex do this. It's a healthy thing IMO - it shows that adults can set aside their differences and create something better.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2011 01:26AM by bigred.

bigred Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many divorced couples are setting aside their differences and attending events together in order to create a win/win. My ex and I do this...

I had a feeling this was the case for you. I think it's great when this happens. But in Knotty's case, the ex was creating problems over visitation long before this particular holiday. If I read Knotty's original post correctly, her husband had not been allowed to see his kids for a year and a half by that point. This is and was not an ex who wants to play nicely or has a shred of generosity in her heart -- not good prerequisites for a happy family holiday. Under the circumstances the ex should have put the kids on a plane and let Knotty's husband have some well-deserved time with them. But it seems that she can't even manage that much.

You're lucky that your ex is rational enough to work with you for the sake of your children. Not everyone is that fortunate.

I did not read it as the ex was unwilling to let him see the children so much as they lived so far apart it was not feasible. Dad lived in VA and mom and kids lived in AZ - I do believe that the mom suggested Thanksgiving - which was nixed by knot and then when she refused that the mom suggested Christmas - which was also nixed by knot. IMO knot is the one in the way here - at least that is the way I interpreted the story. Both her DH and the ex (mom) were willing to have a visit over either holiday.

When that's the case, dads typically get a chunk of time in the summer. He didn't get even that much.

I didn't see anywhere that said the mother had refused visitation in the summer. I did see that there were financial constraints on the part of Knot and her DH - I don't know if that is why they did not come in the summer or there was some other reason. If the mother refused summer visitation, I do believe there are courts for that.

"My husband was trying really hard to nail down visitation with his daughters. He truly loved his kids and wanted to see them, but his ex kept shooting down all his proposed visitations. "

His ex was making it difficult for him to see his kids.

You're projecting your situation on hers, and then condemning her for not being able to do what you were able to do, bigred. THE OP was working with a deck stacked against her. There was never going to be a positive way out of this one - the ex was clearly not interested in keeping things civil and wanted to be in control of everything (right down to dictating how she'd be staying in OP's DH's family home!)

She was right to back out of the situation to keep herself out of the equation. Remember - they're not her kids, and he doesn't have primary custody, so the term "stepmother" would be so incredibly loose as best that she had no right to get in the middle there.

There was a history of problems, and she rightly stepped back out of them.

The ex poisoned her kids against the husband, and used the OP as fodder for more negativity. The OP couldn't have done a single thing here, other than make things worse if she stepped into it.

What a sick, sick Christmas. You did the right thing. It is not your battle, but you will need to give your husband sympathy and support, for many years to come. He must never surrender.

Your poor FIL! All he wanted was a chance to see his grandchildren, and he ended up providing a hotel for an ex daughter-in-law and her stupid Mormon husband and two other kids that aren't related to him at all--while his own son had to stay somewhere else. They were all bullied. What a control freak that ex is!

What a control freak the Mormon cult is! You know there was only one motive, one agenda, one goal, don't you: The cult wants to own your step children! Yes, the only desire is to get them to THE TEMPLE to be sealed for all eternity.

Fortunately, the LDS cult can't seal any children to any adults unless they are LEGALLY their children, or LEGALLY adopted. Fortunately, a legal adoption can not happen without your husband's consent. He must not give it! The kids will have to wait until they are 18. Hopefully, by then they will realize that the cult is a hoax.

Trust me in this--I have experience--that hatred and nasty back-biting turns against the person doing the gossiping. The kids will get sick of all that negativity spewing from their mother, and they will become suspicious of it. Adolescents want to find out things for themselves, and they just might decide to get to know their dad on their own. Your husband can call, e-mail, write, send cards, and keep in touch--if only to let his kids know that he cares about them.

The Mormon cult does not teach, preach, or practice unconditional love. Those kids are going to NEED their father's love--and yours. I feel sorry for all of you--and for the many other families that have been torn apart by the Mormon cult.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2011 02:48AM by forestpal.

Yes, it did also occur to me that my husband's dad really just wanted to see the kids and that was another reason I didn't attend. It's easy for people to tell me that I was being "prideful" and childish by not attending the holiday gathering. Actually, I think I was the most adult of the bunch for seeing the situation for what it was and not giving into the fantasy of having a "big happy family" with the ex. That, in my opinion, was a very childish notion, especially since it was Ex who initiated the divorce after declaring my husband a porn addict who hates women (a proclivity I have yet to observe in our marriage). Tell me this... if my husband were really an abusive porn addict who hates women and the kids hated me after their first visit, why would the Ex WANT to spend the holidays with us?

Ex told a lot of people about my husband's so-called "abusive tendencies", including people in the LDS church and his own family. His stepmother, who once really was married to an abusive man, was very shaken by these false revelations. Apparently, Ex was so convincing that as recently as last year, SMIL was still wondering if her stories were true. She asked me about it and I was glad to tell her that my husband really is one of the most gentle people I've ever known.

In 2006, she got the girls to send my husband letters demanding that he give them up for adoption. She included her own abusive letter and sent us many boxes of my husband's stuff that she'd held onto for years. Curiously enough, she also sent my husband a children's book about forgiveness that he used to read to their daughters. Just before he deployed to Iraq, he sent the book back to her without comment.

My husband refused to sign the adoption papers Ex sent. And the girls were sealed to him when they were married. He has since resigned from the church and we have no idea if Ex got a sealing cancellation or not. Frankly, it probably doesn't matter since it's all bullshit anyway.

I have never met my husband's ex wife in person, but I have seen most of her emails and letters, talked to her on the phone, and talked to people who have known her for many years. I've heard the stories from my MIL and my FIL and his wife about how she would play them against each other. It's easy to tell me that I could have risen above all that, but the situation just looked to me like it was very toxic. I felt I had the right to exercise my own judgment rather than give in to the Ex's whims.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2011 10:08AM by knotheadusc.

Whenever I hear the term 'alienation' I see it used as a way to trivialize any legitimate feelings the children have and lump them all on the 'offending' parent.
If my dad left my home, moved halfway across the country, and started a whole new life with some stranger, spending more time with her than me (as a daughter myself, I have no doubt that these girls saw this as 'dad loves her more than us' thing) I think I would be hurt and angry too.
I doubt the 'evil ex' had to do much, if anything, to 'get' those girls to write off their dad. I also have to wonder how much of the craziness/anger with the ex has to do with her being upset that her children are so upset.
I know this shit usually takes two, I just always have to wonder what the other side of the story is and why this dad had, according to the story, spent so little time with his kids in the last 2 years.
He got married and had not one, but two kids with this woman. Did she just turn crazy after the divorce? I'm sure he played no part in it, he was just an Innocent bystander, right?
Sorry to say this, knotheadusc, but as far as those kids are concerned, you ARE an interloper. You got involved with a man who was already in a committed relationship, a father/minor daughter relationship. The kids haven't been 'alienated' by a wicked ex, they are human, and for all intent an purpose, you stole their daddy. At least that's how it feels to them.

For those who ask why my husband moved across the country...

Well, it was a mutual move by both parties. My husband and his ex got divorced in Arkansas. Ex had drawn up the papers herself, using a do it yourself kit, because they were broke. In retrospect, this was probably not the best idea, but I had no part in that decision. She awarded herself sole custody of the kids and a generous amount of child support and life insurance coverage. My husband agreed because she had him over a barrel and he was, frankly, beaten down by her abuse.

Ex then decided to move to Arizona. My husband is an Army officer and was originally sent to Kansas, but then got sent to the Pentagon, just in time for 9/11. The Army is his career and Ex knew that when she married him; in fact, her first husband had also been in the Army, albeit as an enlisted man. My husband did leave active duty for a few years at her behest, but was not able to support his family on the salary he made working at factories, which was the kind of work that was available where they were living, especially since the Ex and my husband had very different ideas about what their standard of living should/could be.

After they went through bankruptcy owing to Ex's massive medical bills and the money pit house the Ex decided she had to have, my husband decided to go back on active duty. It was the very best job offer he had at the time and he doesn't regret it. I'm sure Ex doesn't either, because it's allowed him to pay $2550 a month in child support for her three eldest kids-- including her son, whom my husband had, until recently, always regarded as his, though he never was legally. When I met my husband, he was living on $600 a month, paying the house note on the house that Ex got, alimony, and child support. The house later went into foreclosure.

My husband's ex wife also has a history of alienating children. She alienated her eldest child from his father when she married my husband. In retrospect, my husband probably should not have allowed the boy to call him "dad" and should have encouraged his ex wife to let the boy see his father. But hindsight is 20/20.

I married my husband in 2002 and saw the kids in 2003. We had a nice enough visit, except for the fact that the younger daughter (9 at the time) noticed that we had beer in our refrigerator. She slapped my husband across the face and chastised him for "getting drunk". But we talked to her about it and the situation resolved. They even got to talk to my husband's mom, who had been cut out of their world for years at that point. During that visit, my husband's older daughter even gave me a big hug and called me her other mother. After that visit, the alienation tactics escalated. My husband would call his kids and they wouldn't answer the phone. He tried to arrange visitation, but the ex would tell him they already had plans for whatever time period he requested. She also refused to consider putting them on a plane, citing her fear that they would die in a crash.

Believe me, I often encouraged my husband to take his ex wife to court and try to force her to let him have more visitation. But for the first few years of our marriage, we were pretty broke trying to recover from the financial damage that was done during the first marriage and paying child support. By the time our financial situation had stabilized somewhat, the kids were adolescents. Now, they are adults.

Their mother now has two young kids with her third husband. I hope he's been taking notes.

I don't expect all of you to understand this situation. People always try to tell me everything that I've done wrong. Honestly, in this case, I don't think there was much more I could do. I encouraged my husband to call his kids and go to court. At the beginning of the marriage, I hoped and expected the kids would visit. I even looked forward to getting to know them (I knew nothing about PAS at that time). But I do think it's too much to expect me to spend holidays with my husband's spiteful ex wife. They got divorced for a good reason. From what I've been able to observe, the Ex has a way of sucking everyone into her sphere and turning them into her pawns. Someone had to stay out of the vortex.

I love my husband very much. He is worth everything we've been through because he is one of the best men I've ever met. I am actually grateful that the ex dumped him, because he brings me a lot of joy. He could have brought the same joy to his daughters, given half a chance.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2011 11:57AM by knotheadusc.

I'm sorry that your husband wasn't able to get a better divorce agreement, Knotty. That really bites. If he tries to keep contact going (calls, notes, emails) they may yet come around. You never know.

Well, it's really up to them. Like I said, they are pretty much adults. Ex has moved them again. We discovered they went to New Hampshire through a few lucky strokes on the Internet.

I just read a very good scholarly book about PAS. The author interviewed forty people who had been alienated from their parents, as well as parents whose kids had been alienated. The tactics described in the book are so eerily familiar to me. It's as if alienating parents have a script they use. My husband's kids are living in a cult (their mother's house) within a cult (LDS church).

But yeah, maybe they will come around and maybe they won't. We'll see what happens.

I don't think the step mom missing out on a holiday is usually interpreted by the kids as an insult.

My parents were divorced when I was 8 and my dad remarried right away. It was an enormous loss to have his new wife in the middle of all the time we spent with him. We had no real special time together because his wife, who felt like a stranger to us, was always present and taking most of the attention.

Daughters especially feel a sense of weirdness seeing a dad with a new love interest if they're being neglected either by choice or circumstances. (My dad didn't neglect us by choice but the reality of working all week, being tired on the weekends when we visited, and his wife sitting on his lap resulted in us feeling ignored or that his attention wasn't mainly with us in the ways we craved because we missed him not living at home with us.) My sister and I would have given anything for his wife not to show up for a holiday. No such luck. She didn't have a clue to give us any space or private time with our dad.

Sounds like you have better sense and don't feel the need to hover while he's visiting his kids. I would think this would work in your favor in the eyes of the kids--they'd like you more for seeming less threatening of their time with him.

Children do sometimes feel "alienated" because the dad neglected to be more involved or they had longings they could explain to him because he didn't spend enough time with them. My sister is one of those whose never really been able to be close to our dad because she felt so much unexpressed longing during childhood and his distance at times (moving to another city for 2 years while she was in her teens) hurt her so much she protected herself by not wanting to be close.

On the other hand parents contribute alot to alienating children from the other parent. Kids absorb the attitudes of the parent they're close to. My mom hated my stepmother and I ended up hating her for years because I felt loyalty toward my mother's feelings and because the stepmother was in our way too much. My mom encouraged alienation from our dad as loyalty to her like we had to chose who we loved most. I practice divorce law now and see parents play out their power on children this way. It's very hurtful.

I'm sorry for any parent whose children are alienated from them. It's a terrible pain men and women live with which needs to be acknowledged and honored. I'm sorry.

Hey Knotty -
For what it's worth, I think you did the right thing. Working with pathologically damaged people like the ex is very tricky. People on the outside think that they "know" the right way to handle it, but the truth is, until you have to deal with a crazy person like the ex on a frequent basis, you honestly have no idea what it's like.

My husband mother is crazy, and so is his sister. They referred to me only in the third person singular for the first several months of our marriage - not by my first name. It has only gotten marginally better over the past several years because I've stopped trying to please them by playing their passive aggressive games.

blame YOU for the relationship problems between your husband and his kids (and his ex-wife).

I always find it odd when some posters INSIST on repeating their point of view over and over in someone else's thread.

As if you are required to agree with their outrageous condemnation.

Too bad there isn't an "ignore" button like on facebook.

knotheadusc's husband here.

While I appreciate that it's human nature to "armchair general" other people's actions, knot and I are the only folks here who where there and know the entire story. It is not so cut and dried.

I reentered the Army toward the end of my ninth year of marriage to the ex. Even though our marriage had almost deteriorated past the point of no return and I was living in a toxic environment, I was still willing to save it (for the sake of the children, no less). I was offered (really ordered) to an assignment in a neighboring state, and I asked (really begged) her to pack everything up, get rid of the money-pit house that was falling down around us and go with me. She refused.

We were geographically separated for five months before she served me divorce papers. In that time, she succeeded in packing up and sending out all my things, removing pictures of me and my mother from the house and from photo albums, telling the kid's teachers and other Ward members and Bishopric that I had just "left". She tried to convince my family that I was a sick and abusive misogynist, and some of them bought it. I began to see that she was shaping an environment whereby I'd be isolated from family and friends, and the only way to break that isolation would be to comply with her demands, reenter the toxic environment, and "shut up and color".

Read Orwell much?

Two months after serving me papers she packed up the kids, abandoned the house (oh yeah, I was paying the mortgage too) and moved to AZ. Why? Don't know--neither of us have any family there. However, her move created a complex problem set to visitation. First, I just started a new job and people aren't successful in their jobs if they are never there. Then there was distance--I couldn't have my kids over every other weekend or go see them for that matter, just "on a whim". Economics. Knot did mention that after paying the mortgage, alimony and child support I had about $600 left over, right? Still, I was able to see them five times during those first two years.

The I moved to VA and got married. 9/11 became an excuse for her to deny my requests to fly the kids to the East Coast. If I wanted to see them, then I had to come out there. She was the mom and "knew better". Frankly, I didn't have the money or the time to take her to court. And losing my job over it briefs well as a Lifetime Movie script, but it really would have been irresponsible.

So the Christmas idea was all hers, brought up while we were negotiating visitation. She played it off as a "win-win"--they'd get to see their parents, and knot and I could be there too (she never said that the kids wanted to see me or their stepmother). I didn't want to do it at first. I'd known the ex at that time for over 18 years and understood what she intended to do. She was shaping my parent's house as a "killing ground" of sorts. She was bringing her husband and the kids she had with him. So, if knot and I showed up, the ex would monopolize all my parent's time, bring up the past (remember when we...), and do all she could to probe knot while pushing her to the periphery. Her husband was there to enforce loyalty binds and he did so, working his best to take my kids' attention from me. Christmas was miserable, and later I told my parents that I would never do that again. But it was the only way to see my children.

This has all been a bunch of TL;DR, but life is about making choices and dealing with the risks involved. I made choices and accepted risk that other folks may disagree with.

But they weren't there.

Number 6