So, three missionaries show up asking if my daughter was home. She hasn't been "home" for 10 years, but that is beside the point. I dialogued a bit with them, and told them that I have been out of Church for over 10 years. They asked me what some of my issues were. As I have a gay Son, I did mention my problem with the dismissal and ongoing attack on LGBQT folks, by the so called prophets. I expressed that this rhetoric has negative effects on those who have this orientation, and that this has lead to deaths and suicides. One of the missionaries smirked. I kind of laid into him a bit. Anyway, I see this lack of empathy and immoral response very offensive. They didn't want to get into other issues, and it was just as well.

I have had to dress down missionaries when I was also on my mission, when I was a ward mission leader, when I was volunteering at the Missionary Training Center, when they were trying to reactivate me, and after I left the church.

They need to hear that they are wrong, that they aren't the greatest thing ever, and that even with their "calling" they're still just young imperfect dumbasses.

Too often, the worst assholes among them will never hear that they're wrong from their companions who don't want to rock the boat and who may be genuinely afraid of them. (I know this having been in that position myself with one godawful companion.)

He needed to hear it; I'm glad you told him.

Tyson

+1 I'm glad you told the smirking mishie, too.

I like the point Tyson makes that all missionaries are not the same. Often we hear a lot of sympathy for them here and people wanting to feed them. I am not in that camp. No coddling. The tough confrontations on my mission were very valuable to me. Very.

Just venting Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of the missionaries smirked.

Not a very good missionary.

I had four missionaries show up at my door. One of them really pissed me off. I live in a gated community and how they got in to knock on my door I have no idea. Anyways I had security remove them from the subdivision. But they were asking why I wasn’t going to church and one was very smug and aggressive trying to guilt trip me. You don’t realize how much you hate the church until the missionaries come to your door. I don’t need a lecture from a bunch of dumb kids.

And then they leave as they comment to each other that your great pride is costing you your mansion in the CK. You were not humble enough to let these wise spiritual young men lead you to the light.

The thing with Mormons is, it's NEVER their fault.

Mishie sent to rescue me: So Brother Goop, you're willing to let a petty reaction of feeling offended keep you from eternal life. You need to get off your butt and come back to church.

Me: I can worship how I please. I can be just as spiritual in the sanctity of my home. I don't need to be at church for god's approval.

And what would Elder Prick say now about all the members staying home?

BTW, my house was in shambles after a fire and I was told to count my blessings. They didn't care about me or my welfare, they just wanted their damn keys to the meetinghouse.

I always say the same thing to the missionaries.
You've never raised a family, had a career and if I'm to believe it, never had sex. And you are trying telling me what life is about?

If they smirk, I say, you've been trained to answer questions, good luck in the life insurance business.

Eternal life insurance business selling fire insurance.

I understand negative responses and reactions but think in most cases they only serve to confirm in their minds the bitterness and anger they believe are the results of apostasy.

Yes. I remember visiting a guy who had been a missionary and had gone inactive. He was probably a decade older than us. He seemed to be lonely and on his own in a dilapidated apartment. I remember thinking how this is what he got from his service. And we were only trying to flush out the inactives that wouldn't see us.

He said stuff against the church and it went in one ear and out the other. I didn't smirk. I just felt sorry for someone from the standpoint of being "blessed."

Rest assured that when I was a *member* still and chastened missionaries for being way out of line, there wasn't a hint of bitterness. Reproach can be constructive criticism, but the important thing in my opinion is breaking through their lack of self-awareness.

Tyson

I think there is a way to talk to missionaries without coddling and without getting the cognitive dissonance to kick in. Tell your personal story of pain that the church caused you. Let yourself cry or tear up but also smile a lot and talk about how better your life is now. I'm a real person and my pain is real. They need to be able to see ME.

If they were open to talking about my issues, I'd sit down with them and read the Gospel Topics essays with them and talk about what I was taught by the church my whole life and how disingenuous and manipulative those essays are in light of what my testimony was about.

I don't need to convince them they're wrong. But they need to be made aware of how the church has hurt me and how the church itself destroyed my faith. They think the church is an ultimate good, that the gospel is about happiness. I tried. I tried so hard to make that work for me before I went inactive.

"I don't need to convince them they are wrong." Me neither. They all have to find their own way.

I don't need to convince them they are wrong-- but-- I would like to get them to see a bigger picture, yea, even the whole picture. But what really works on an indoctrinated Mormon?

A stranger who opened their door on my mission started my whole journey out of that church with one simple friendly question. It hit home with me. My companion just put the guy down after we left claiming the guy just wasn't open to the truth. But for me the question stuck in my mind for years after because deep down I knew he was right.

Most mormons are taught from birth to see those who have left as lost, meaning lacking in understanding, lacking the guidance of the Holy Ghost, and having been seduced by an ungodly world--fooled, even. I feel that telling them my story would only strengthen their predetermined summation of me as an apostate, so perhaps just asking them about themselves is the only value in a conversation I can think of.


P.S. I love your moniker.

What question was that?

Only door that didn't get slammed in our face that day while tracting. Nice guy opens the door. I give the spiel (or is that schpiel?) and finish with my testimony. Couldn't believe he let me do the whole number.

El Señor at the door then said, referring to the burning in the bosom I had referred to as to how I gained a testimony, "I believe you felt something, but how do you know it wasn't just something you worked yourself up into?"

I knew instantly I couldn't brush that question off. Deep down I knew that was exactly what had happened. And let me tell you--it took days of fasting and praying to get to the point where I could fool myself. But, of course, you can't fool yourself forever. I put the question on the back burner and it stayed warm until I needed it later. I wish I could go back and thank that man.



My mother is always trying to say the right thing to make me realize I have a testimony still. I think about that when I hear people strategizing about what to say to the missionaries. Maybe they'll hit the right combination I hope. But I think most things that affect our lives come out of left field and are serendipitous.

That was really great. Thank you for sharing. Such a simple thing but it seemed to hit you right.

I'm trying to think if there was ever anything anyone said that hit me simply like that. There really wasn't. The temple was weird and I shelved it because I so badly wanted to believe. It was really only the fact that I could see and feel the leaders lying when they came out with those retroactive history corrections in the essays. I had been told I could trust them to never lead me astray and all of a sudden the narrative changed to "Your expectations are too high. These men aren't perfect!" They better damn well be if I'm going to follow them blindly. Nobody short of perfect gets to direct every aspect of my life, so, they better be right all the time, every time, or they haven't earned my obedience.

I guess my strategy is based on that. A testimony works to convince someone because of the emotional response. Why not my personal story of pain? Why not showing them exactly how the church has changed and lied? And the whole thing comes from my feelings of regret and being cheated out of my life and my money. I didn't get anything valuable out ofvmy time in the church. So, my impulse with seeing missionaries is to save them from wasting too much time.

In many ways our experiences are the same. Your catalyst wasn't a stranger at the door, but you noticed "God's chosen" had changed the narrative. And no matter how much you want to believe (for whatever reason)that was okay, something inside you won't deny what you just plain "know"--- it wasn't okay. Ironically, that is called listening to that "still small voice."

And I contrast your experience to my TBM family's. No matter how much the Lord's Chosen change the narrative, my family is fine with it. You got the fabled "X factor". Yay!

Isn’t that remarkable? Mormons think they are ethical, principled, that they stand for something. But they change their moral codes the moment they are instructed to do so.

Moral principles stay the same as circumstances change. Mormons have no such permanent ethical values.

> But I think most things that
> affect our lives come out of
> left field and are serendipitous.


    And oftentimes are hit-and-run, once-in-a-lifetime encounters.  For good and for bad.

    Sure, go ahead and make plans!  It can't hurt . . .


    "Do what is right, until you find something that's more fun," said no one involved with organized religion.

I barely see the teenagers out walking hoping to land a golden contact.

We've only seen them twice since we moved to New England and never in our neighborhood. I suspect if they showed up on my street that I might pounce on them just for the variety of someone else to talk to (at an appropriate social distance).

That said, I've thought that with the growth of the internet and lowering the mission age for men to 18, that the church has really killed off door knocking and street contacting, though I have no clue what it's been replaced by.

Tyson

Busy work. Been replaced by busy work. :)

Got to get keep the kids on auto pilot during the dangerous years--18 to 21. Then marriage and callings! Who says the old guys aren't inspired?

I wonder sometimes if I'd have ever gotten out if I hadn't been "straight challenged."

I hope and believe you would have gotten out. Your empathy isn't limited to your own characteristics; seeing what the church does to others would have done the trick regardless of your "orientation."

I had some family complete a mission and another sent off.

Facebook missions. Lots of typing. Sharing Jesus in chat rooms, zoom, and whatever remote app that allows 1 to many presentation software that church can negotiate a decent rate for support contract.

...I think the best advice was given by poster Cheryl a long time ago.

Just hose 'em down!

Hose 'Em Down. Great title for a song ;-)

Ignore them. Doors that open also shut.

A couple of months after we had found out about the deception with TSCC, my husband, our son, and myself were sitting at the table having lunch and talking about things we had been finding out.

My husband said that he wished he could have just 5 minutes with the missionaries to tell them some of what we knew.

It was literally not more than 5 seconds later that our son was looking out through the living room window to the street and said: ”Wait a minute! Whose that coming over?!” We looked and it was the missionaries! They had parked their car across the street, got out, and made a beeline for our house!

We were able to talk with them for awhile, and they were very polite listening to us and we listened to them also. The only thing was that the missionaries kind of had that deer in the headlights look.