Religion? Tribal Loyalty? Does it even matter anymore?

If you keep insisting that something isn't real, doesn't exist, or that what you are told isn't true when it actually is, what do you do when their desire to live in an alternative universe threatens your life?

https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-health-care-intv-gupta-pkg-ac360-dnt-vpx.cnn


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-05/they-suffered-through-covid-and-still-don-t-want-the-vaccine

Fire them, like we are doing in WA State.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/as-covid-19-mandate-looms-68-of-washington-state-workers-verified-as-vaccinated/

Only 68% of employees have verified that they have been vaccinated, meaning 32% are getting fired or have exemptions that allow them to not have contact with the public. Kinda hard to not have contact with the public as a nurse or a Dr.

I have zero sympathy for anybody who ignores science and refuses to get vaccinated, like the rest of us, in the middle of the worst pandemic in US history. I am good with the fact that 99% of people being naturally selected out of the gene pool are the unvaccinated. Couldn’t happen to a better demographic.
It’s science deniers that are dying off to ‘Own the Libtards!’

Agreed.

So there is no possibility that a nurse, trained in hard science, human physiology and medicine might know something that we don't?

Just askin'

    In that respect, I never see or hear of personal reports of personal investigation, research, or correlation...  Instead, we get quotes regarding someone else's findings.

    So we end up with "My findings say your findings are full of hooey!"  So in essence, it becomes political!  The politics of competing findings...

    And apparently, one side has a lot more "power" than the other side.

    How high would the mortality rate have to be before refusing to get a vaccination was a crime?

The training that nurses receive varies depending on the institution they studied at, their chosen specialty, if any, and even their location. Too, their specialties and experience vary. A nurse who has been working for a decade is likely more informed than a new grad, and is definitely more experienced by definition. Too, there are specialist nurses and their training, qualifications and experience vary. For example, ICU nurses are more specifically trained and experienced to care for critically ill patients than are nurses who work in general duty areas. Paediatric nurses are more trained and experienced in working with children than adults, again by definition. Some nurses receive diplomas, others degrees, depending on their chosen fields and where they wish to work (i.e. clinics, hospitals, public health, other specialty areas).

There are significant differences in caring for children compared to adults as well as working in general duty areas vs ERs and ICUs.

General nursing training includes basic biology, chemistry and pharmacology. I'm not sure how much training general nursing education offers in fields such as microbiology, virology and allied sciences. I'd be surprised if it is in depth at all as those fields aren't priorities for providing nursing care (unless one takes extra education/courses in such areas).

Nurses can have vast experience in a number of fields related to medicine and expertise in some specialist fields. For instance, I worked with patients with diabetes so I am much more familiar with that condition than, say, with caring for transplant patients. All nurses know basic first aid, of course, and can initially respond to emergency situations but ongoing specialist care such as ICU requires more specialized knowledge.

Each type of medical and allied health training and education prepares a person to work in a specific field so, obviously, physicians diagnose and treat diseases, nurses nurse ill people, some with specialty training over and above basic nursing, pharmacists know vastly more about pharmacology than either but all know the basic principles, and so on. In the work I do in health care I see that all the health professionals work together, each individual providing their expertise in their own field for the benefit of each patient. Some patients see multiple physicians, in different fields of expertise, depending on patient need and physicians refer patients out to other health professionals depending on how they can contribute to the person's well-being (i.e. physios, kinesiologists, orthotics experts etc).

As an aside, I'm not sure that there's 100% agreement that biology and physiology are "hard sciences". Some definitions label them as soft or medium.

I wouldn't say that a nurse wouldn't "know something that we don't" as I think of Florence Nightingale who knew more about sanitation than the physicians of her day by which she saved many lives during the Crimean War.

However, re vaccination hesitation or refusal I would be ultra cautious about the sources I use so that I can obtain the best information about how to proceed. It's crucial to check sources and their qualifications to speak on the subject they're addressing. I wouldn't take someone's opinion, especially if it was outside the norm or against the mainstream, without researching their credentials, history, experience and reliability as much as possible. I wouldn't trust someone merely because their title is "Dr." or "RN" and I would be ultra cautious if they are rejecting the mainstream, especially in science and medicine. I would check *their* sources and try to figure out why they have reached the conclusions they're espousing.

I have listened to nurses who are refusing vaccination, who hold their opinions with such fervour that they are putting their jobs on the line by rejecting vaccine mandates. The reasoning I have heard so far is not persuasive and most often I find it to be inconsistent. I question their sources.

I find the numbers to be persuasive on the side of vaccination. Here in Canada, by far the highest numbers of patients currently in ICUs with COVID-19/variants are unvaccinated. In some locations the number is that 100% of all CV patients needing specialty hospital care have not been vaccinated.

I don't know of anything the nurses holding off on being vaccinated are saying that can be more persuasive than the realities the numbers reveal.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2021 02:27PM by Nightingale.

"So there is no possibility that a nurse, trained in hard science, human physiology and medicine might know something that we don't? Just askin'"

Who is "we"? The average non-medical lay person? Sure. But that's not who they should be measured against.

For example, how about the doctors they work with, who have *more* training in hard science, human physiology and medicine than they do?

Or professional virologists and epidemiologists, who have devoted their careers to studying pandemics, and who invariably have vastly more training in hard science, human physiology and medicine than they do?

No. There is no possibility that these nurses have secret knowledge that has escaped the world's premier medical specialists and experts.

Just answerin'.

I know nurses from SE Asia who do not eat eggs and fear vaccines that might have been made using eggs.

These days I don't ask why.

The COVID vaccines first developed didn't use eggs. Now there may be some that do, or will. Hopefully, people can have a choice.

Here's a CDC article about the vaccines (no eggs):

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

Here's an article about using eggs:

https://www.path.org/articles/classic-tech-meets-new-science-how-chicken-egg-could-help-end-pandemic/

"I wouldn't say that a nurse wouldn't "know something that we don't" as I think of Florence Nightingale who knew more about sanitation than the physicians of her day by which she saved many lives during the Crimean War."

I think I said that practicing nurses "would" know something we don't.

Thanks for you perspective.

Yes, I think we're on the same page there. I'm agreeing with your comment that perhaps a nurse may know something others don't. I gave the example of Florence Nightingale to indicate that yes, that is possible.

I just think that in this pandemic it is unlikely for that to be the case. For one thing, we know a lot more science and medicine now than they did in Florence's day. It's almost unbelievable to think that at one time MDs didn't know to wash their hands, for instance. You'd think it would be instinctive in any case, given what their hands were touching. Instead, they unknowingly spread contagion from one patient to another en masse. You'd think they would have clued in much earlier than they did that *they* were the source of the deadly organisms that wiped out their patients. Thank you very much Florence.

Was Nurse Florence the source of your moniker, Nighty??

Absolutely, catnip. She was one of my childhood heroines. I admired her knowledge, creativity, determination, compassion and courage. Not only did she challenge the male medical establishment and promote principles of sanitation not widely practised at the time, saving many lives during the war, she taught other women her skills, and is credited with founding modern nursing.

Yes, I like her very much. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2021 02:41AM by Nightingale.

As you know, a great Union general (whose name eludes me at the moment) was interviewed about Flo and said simply, "she ranks me." Truly a great woman and a great American.

You do the moniker justice.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Ann_Bickerdyke

And don't forget about Mary Seacole :)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Seacole

Just looked it up. You're right.

And where I first heard it was the Ken Burns documentary.

But that doesn't change the fact that on RfM, Nightingale ranks me.

That depends on your metric. :)

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You do the moniker justice.

The compliment of my dreams, LW. Thankyouverymuch.

But. You know that Tal Bachman (exmo) song "She's so high, high above me"? Well, it's like that. I can slap on the occasional Band-Aid now and again but Flo - she eradicated death from septic wounds in the midst of the hellhole of Crimea before antiseptics were known to be crucial. And educated a generation of nurses in her day on modern nursing, aka informed care.

She's all that and a bag of chips as my English friend says. The real deal. Only the best. You get the idea. :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2021 04:28PM by Nightingale.

Hey, you know I've called you Flo many times in the past. That wasn't because of the Progressive adverts.

She was indeed a hero, one of those women who shows that feminine strength is every bit as impressive as its masculine counterpart. She was all that and a bag of crisps!

Excellent work on the crisps. My English folks also say chips for fries so it all works every which way very nicely.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2021 06:00PM by Nightingale.

As long as they don't wrap the chips in old newspaper. . .

My dad used to bring home "fish and chips" for our Friday night dinner. Back then, Catholics avoided meat on Fridays, but fish was considered acceptable. I remember the freshly fried fish being wrapped in newspaper. Can you even find that anymore? My mouth waters at the memory.

In my experience the British learned that ink wasn't as tasty a condiment as vinegar and salt and consequently switched to butcher's paper and the like.

But fish and chips? Yes, you can still get the cheap stuff as well as more upscale versions at nice restaurants. You're on your own for newspaper, though.

Excellent role model Nightingale. I'm a fan of nurses and the care they have provided me plus my daughter in law is an RN working Covid

Nurses might know more than the average person but even with the respect I have for them I will still take the advice of a doctor over a nurse.

I generally agree, kentish. But re Nurse Nightingale, she knew her stuff and due to her experience and knowledge many lives were saved whereas the MDs of her acquaintance weren't so well informed re sanitation, germs, etc.

It's important indeed to check the source and also the results.

Be nice to nurses. They keep doctors from killing you....Kitty Foreman.

I dunno.

Have you ever heard of anyone, for example, who is both a physician and a believer in a bizarre religion that takes his money and his sexual freedom and his time? How about a dentist? An attorney? A university professor or president? Could you imagine an irrational, even anti-rational, cult whose leadership comprised such learned and analytical people?

I suspect that if I put on my thinking bonnet, I could conjure up such a religion and explain it by the fact that the leaders' analytic skills are kept in a professional box while their emotional needs drive what happens outside of the box. By the same token I can imagine equally intelligent dentists and lawyers and professors--even a university full of such professors--and really smart manual laborers and housewives who might for their own emotional reasons follow those leaders, a minority of whom then one tired evening put their intellect in the wrong box, wake up doubters, and find their way out of their cult and to some ill-reputed online community full of like-minded heretics.

Then they awake another morning--apparently these people are lucid dreamers--and look at others who are still stuck in their own versions of Plato's cave and wonder, "hmmm, why do those really smart nurses believe things so utterly stupid?"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2021 01:07AM by Lot's Wife.

All I'm saying is that medical personnel who have been actively treating covid patients for over a year may have some insight into the disease and treatment that I don't have.

And that it might be worth listening to those people.

Sure. Listen to them and figure out where the mental block is and how to overcome it.

But a tiny majority of nurses holding an unscientific position do not deserve being taken as seriously as the vast majority of nurses, doctors, and scientists backed by overwhelming data.

There's an MD who says the vaccines make you magnetic. Does she know something we don't?

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's an MD who says the vaccines make you
> magnetic. Does she know something we don't?

Not even a chance.

>But a tiny majority of nurses holding an unscientific position...

Shouldn't that be a tiny minority of nurses?

I think it could go either way grammatically but yes, your formulation is clearer.

I listen to their points of view. I check their sources. I question their objectivity and conclusions if they are outside the mainstream of science. I check whether their views are internally consistent. If they offer some persuasive evidence...

From the first video linked in the OP – conversation between Dr. Sanjay Gupta and RN:


RN: “…[Vaccination is] a personal health care decision…”

NG (me): It’s not only a personal choice. It affects everyone we come into contact with because we can transmit this contagious disease to others. This opinion lingers on, perplexingly, as it’s been repeated countless times that our “personal choice” can severely adversely affect the health and even life of many others. This clearly moves vaccination away from the personal choice category into the realm of public health.


The nurse’s specific health concern: Blood clots (reported in a few cases after vaccination).

MD: “If you have a clotting disorder you should get the vaccine as you’re at increased risk of clotting” with COVID-19/variants.


NG: If you get blood clots after vaccination, they can be treated.


RN: “The science is constantly changing.”

NG: This statement is most often stated as a criticism and rationale for not getting vaccinated. We’ve frequently discussed here the reasons for the “changes”, or updates, as time goes on and the pandemic lingers and more data is collected about its every aspect.

But the nurse goes on to say “I understand that science *is* changing as we find out more things.”

NG: OK, so why use the anti-vax talking point that “changing” science is a reasonable rationale for refusing to be vaccinated?


MD. “…six billion shots have been administered around the world, trial data and real world data show safety of vaccines.”

RN: “I’m not anti-vaccine. I’m not anti-COVID vaccine. But informed consent is what we all honour in nursing. It’s their [a patient’s] body. It’s a choice they should make for themselves. And that I should make for myself.”

MD: “…don’t you draw a line when it comes to a contagious disease. … you could potentially be a carrier of a virus [to vulnerable sick people in hospital] and not know it because you don’t have any symptoms.”


NG: Again I say this seems to be a constant sticking point for resisting getting vaccinated – yes, it’s your body, it’s their body BUT it is NOT a personal choice any longer when the world is suffering through a prolonged pandemic. Their argument has no teeth because it’s not a personal situation, it’s a general health care emergency.


RN: “I have had multiple co-workers test positive for COVID in the past few weeks that are fully vaccinated and so I think a much safer option would be regular testing for all of us, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.”

NG: This is a false equivalency. How is regular testing “a much safer option” than widespread vaccination? Both are recommended in some settings. However, vaccination is a preventative tool against contracting the virus in the first place. Testing is a way to determine whether a person is infected or not. One is before the fact, the other after it. Too, it’s been well explained countless times that you can be infected with the virus and still test negative at first because there is a time lag between becoming infected and displaying symptoms. During that lag you are contagious; thereby, you are potentially transmitting the virus to anyone who comes into contact with your secretions and expulsions. So your negative test is not an absolute guarantee that you are clear of the virus.

I would much rather take my chances with medical staff who are fully vaccinated than with those who took a test that morning that came back negative but in fact they are pre-symptomatic and therefore possibly transmitting the virus to me, especially if I happen to be an unvaccinated or otherwise compromised/vulnerable patient.


MD: “I don’t think you’d say “I’ve never got in a car accident, therefore I don’t need to wear a seatbelt. I knew a guy who wore a seatbelt and still died; therefore, we don’t need seat belts – they obviously don’t work. It’s scientifically grounded evidence that you as a nurse are more equipped than most of the country to understand...rather than sowing this doubt.”

“I think you should get vaccinated. Will you think about it?”

RN: “I feel like I’ve put a lot of thought into this already. But I’m still listening to others.”

MD: “Is there anything that would convince you to get vaccinated?”

Nurse: “Not at this point.”


NG: “I’m still listening to others” says the nurse. “Can anything convince you to get the vaccine?” asks the doctor. “Not at this point” replies the nurse.

I don’t see that attitude as a shining example of being open to new information.

This exchange between the nurse and the doctor is an example of what I mentioned in one of my other posts here, that if a person’s reasons for vaccine hesitancy or refusal are internally inconsistent (i.e. their own expressed opinions contradict each other) that is a red flag that their conclusions are likely not logical.

Such as “I’m open to listening to new information but I’m not going to change my mind.” Which is pretty much the sum and substance of the nurse’s stated position in that video.

And I do have to say that it shocks me that a nurse sees testing as a reasonable substitute for vaccination when it’s well known now, and rooted in science, that a person can be infected with COVID, and contagious, before testing positive. Prevention is better than any other alternative and being vaccinated is the best prevention we’ve got against COVID-19 and its variants at this point.

But hey, my mind is made up, is that nurse’s stance. Very disappointing. And illogical. And unscientific. And dangerous for her patients and community, including family and friends as they may be susceptible to contagion through her.

Playing Devil's Advocate: I can understand the "informed consent" argument. Every day medical workers encounter people who must choose between two or more alternative treatments, or who decide to decline treatment altogether. Speaking personally, my own elderly mother turned down a necessary surgery because she just didn't care to subject herself to that. Her body, her life, her choice.

So I can see a nurse feeling strongly that any medical treatment that does not directly impact patients should be left to personal choice. Since even vaccinated people can test positive and pass the the virus on to others, it might be considered a weak argument that having medical personnel vaccinated would protect patients.

I'm also mindful that vaccinations can go wrong. A good example is the Swine Flu vaccination, a "warp speed" production promoted by President Gerald Ford:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/05/01/vaccine-swine-flu-coronavirus/

You could also argue that a drug such as Thalidomide was widely prescribed before its horrible propensity to cause life-altering birth defects was discovered:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21507989/

I think for my friend who is a former surgical tech who worked with trauma patients, she just feels that she is (ridiculously) healthy and that she would prefer to take her chances with Covid than a vaccination that has been in existence for less than two years.

Of course, I disagree with that, but she has seen a lot more people in truly dire medical situations than I ever will, and I'm reluctant to say that she is wrong about what she does or does not want to put into her own body.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2021 07:03PM by summer.

The head of the Alberta College of Physicians and Surgeons has stated that any health care professional who refuses the vaccine should not be working in their chosen field. Works for me.

Just jam that brand new covid pill down their throat!

Haa..

I'll bet you tried to sell your polio and MMR vaccines at the DI.

Do nurses with an agenda know something that doctors don't know ?

I think when the money runs out people will change their minds. Besides, God is going to protect her and stop her spreading Covid so I am SURE he will pay her bills too.


https://www.king5.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/vaccine/covid-19-vaccine-mandate-washington-state-workers-at-risk-of-losing-jobs-in-october/281-0e37a340-c2d6-43de-9330-840428051ed2

My feeling is, that's their decision. Some will get the vaccine, and some will quit. The exact number of quitters is yet to be known. But I think it will add to the ongoing shortage of nurses. Hospitals may turn away patients if there is no one to care for them. Or states may have to activate the National Guard. I don't think anyone really knows what the outcome will be.

Right, it is their decision, but they think they are being cute by playing the whole,’Sincerely help religious beliefs’ card, when really that’s bullshit. No religion tells you you can’t get a vaccine to save you life if it was tested on embryonic stem cells. That’s just pure politics.

One of them, who got a religious exemption, but is about to get fired because she can’t do our job w/o meeting with the public. We are also about to lose thousands of cops, firefighters, nurses, doctors, over politics, not religion.
She told me her husband works for HR and he said you can’t question somebody’s religious beliefs.’
So nobody questioned her bogus beliefs, they’re just going to fire her and thousands like her.
It’s going to hurt, badly.
But we will survive.

All reports I've heard so far is that when push comes to shove, few have opted to be fired and went ahead and got the vaccine.

Looks like mandates are working.

https://news.yahoo.com/data-show-vaccine-mandates-have-dramatically-increased-healthcare-worker-inoculation-numbers-180025150.html

And this is just sad.

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-business-health-missouri-omaha-b73e167eba4987cab9e58fdc92ce0b72

Susan I/S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looks like mandates are working.
>
> https://news.yahoo.com/data-show-vaccine-mandates-
> have-dramatically-increased-healthcare-worker-inoc
> ulation-numbers-180025150.html
>
> And this is just sad.
>
> https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-bu
> siness-health-missouri-omaha-b73e167eba4987cab9e58
> fdc92ce0b72

Not all Americans are horrible people, just the ones who don't give a rats ass about anybody but themselves and people in their tribe. I think the internet is playing a large role in people going batshit crazy. Half the people you see freaking out on video are streaming it live on YouTube or Facebook.

I used to think that all medical professionals are grounded in reality.

Nope. Every group seems to have a few wacky outliers. We even have a few here on RfM!

"A few?"

" I’m going to pour myself another Fool’s Long Island Iced Tea — a shot of bleach, a shot of chloroquin, a shot of betadine, a shot of lysol, and a shot of ivermectin, pour into flashlight, shake vigorously, and shove it up your bum."

And an ICU nurse in Edmonton took her own life after a mountain of abuse from patients in denial, blocked ambulance bays and protesters outside her hospital hurling verbal abuse whenever she was going into work. She had mentioned she suffered from PTSD and died from an overdose. Beyond sad and tragic.

Lethbridge Reprobate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And an ICU nurse in Edmonton took her own life
> after a mountain of abuse from patients in denial,
> blocked ambulance bays and protesters outside her
> hospital hurling verbal abuse whenever she was
> going into work. She had mentioned she suffered
> from PTSD and died from an overdose. Beyond sad
> and tragic.

This is tragic.

I feel so sorry for her.