I believe that the church is merely another iteration of the extroverted annoying and even insulting the introverted, which is what happens in our American life, in general. Extroverts see themselves as the brave leaders, the Chosen People, and as the Ones to Lead Others, whilst seeing introverts as a waste of skin. So, since I'm a flaming introvert, I was always turned off by leadership roles. I wanted to be left the hell alone; I wanted to stay somewhat in the background, maybe teaching Sunday school, or something. But this violated the church's responsibility to get me to "exercise" my priesthood.

The church used to have an insulting line in the so-called hymn, "Have I Done Any Good," that stated,

"Only he who does something helps others to live.
The world has no use for the drone."

The "drone," of course, is the person in the background, awkwardly making his or her way through Mormon life and Mormon expectations.

(NOTE: After several generations of offending introverts, the church changed the drone thing to the clumsy line, "To God each good work will be known." Always looking out for us, they are.)

The "drone," of course, represented men who did not conform to the expectation of "exercising one's priesthood." The Air Force does the same by making you become a military leader-supervisor once you attain a certain rank; I was always in violation of this by trying to become a better technician in my military specialty, which, to me, was superior to just writing performance reports on hapless young NCO's and airmen. (This paid off when I retired from the AF, and was hired by the federal government for being good at what I did.) For that, I was consistently punished, finally culminating in being personally skewered in a monthly so-called "Top Three Meeting" (the three top-tier enlisted ranks) in front of the other "top three" NCO's for having attained the coveted "professionalization" in my career field (a former program to attain a certain high level of expertise) while I was a master sergeant, instead of becoming a "leader."

These are two classic examples of extrovert v. introvert behavior. I see it everywhere, but especially in the church and in private business. Extroverts are perceived as king, especially by the extroverts themselves; introverts are perceived as mere lost peons, not worthy of praise, no matter their contributions.

Frankly, since introverts are the ones with the technical expertise in business and military and in life, we wouldn't get very far without people like me. (Ditto liberal arts majors.)

Most of my family are introverts. We didn't fit well in the church. I would go to church because I believed and not to socialize. Even in the singles ward. I had a radiator in a corner that I'd lean up against waiting for church to start. I actually had a lot of people stop to talk to me, but I didn't want it. I actually do get a lot of strangers stop me in stores and ask my advice or tell me their life stories. I mean--do I look friendly as I sure try to disappear into the crowds. I actually like wearing masks so people don't notice me or recognize me.

I always felt bad for the priesthood holders, especially my brothers, who didn't like participating in passing sacrament, HT as young partners, and doing the sacrament prayers. I don't think my dad was an introvert, but he didn't like having church jobs unless it was locking up the church at night. He taught the Blazers for a while (had to hurry home from work) and he didn't mind that. I don't think other than that he ever taught a lesson or gave a talk.

My mother was extremely antisocial (raised by deaf grandparents) and she wasn't invited to all the ward clique functions like going to lunch, etc. They'd ask her to babysit for her and YET when she died, I've never seen that many people at a funeral. My mother had a heart of gold and as my brother said, anyone who had a disabled person in their life, my mother was their friend (she had 2 songs who are disabled, too).

I was in the YA RS presidency at one time and some stupid lady from the R.S. presidency made the comment to me that some people in the church are meant to lead and some are not referring to my mother. (Though my mother was in the R.S. presidency quite a few times).

But no, mormonism is so NOT for introverts. Office jobs aren't and I could never teach school, so I work at home doing medical transcription and the only socializing I do is listening to doctors dictate!!!

cl2notloggedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...so I work at home doing medical transcription and
> the only socializing I do is listening to doctors
> dictate!!!

:D

I have never been Mormon, but I certainly have noticed this repeating pattern IRL.

Good post, cludgie!

The hymn used to say "Only he who does something is worthy to live".

I kid you not.

right. I had forgotten that main line. I think there might have been an interim change, keeping the drone thing, before changing it to the clumsy line about "...to God each... whatever." It's funny how they try to soften something that for years has been offensive. It's way too little way too late.

The only place introverts excel in the church are in the clerk callings. If you are a good clerk you will be there for years being the envy of all the other introverts who have to get out in front of people and deal with the never ending drama.

What you say, cludgie. And, never more true than it was on my mission. At least then, if not now, the mission life was a microcosm of the church itself. The peacocking of the extrovert elders was a bit rampant. Styling themselves after the G.A.s in a sort of "humble-brag" manner.

Of course I am sure none of that goes on today. Wouldn't be time what with all the lawns to be mowed.

I couldn't agree more. On missions the extroverts are the successful ones and the thoughtful quiet introverts are constantly humiliated.

What Mormonism values is salespeople.

Psychopaths and Sociopaths make great salespeople. My worst companion was a sociopath. He was a horrible person but the members and investigators loved him.

I'm not qualified to diagnose people, but on my mission many of the leaders were definitely bad people. And I have interacted with some GAs who were completely devoid of empathy.

So yes, I agree.

"Only he who does something helps others to live.
The world has no use for the drone."

This is completely awful. No wonder they had to change it. But inspired leaders wouldn't be so clueless in the first place, you'd think.

Definitions of drone include the following:

"...to talk in a persistently dull or monotonous tone"

Now *that* could fit a fair few Mormon leaders and speakers.

How was JS as a speaker? I don't recall this being mentioned before. Did he have any special gifts?

Meanwhile, speaking of hymns, I'm just listening to Jimmy Cliff performing Many Rivers to Cross.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGeCeK85sUg

Can you imagine a few hymns like this in SM? Makes me laugh to think of it but really it's tragic. The most inspirational songs I ever heard in meetings came from non-LDS music, such as How Great Thou Art and even the American national anthem, although I'm still mystified as to why that would be sung at church and especially in Canada. I thought maybe it was for the US missionaries in attendance. I doubt we ever did it justice.

I like that the song Many Rivers mentions the white cliffs of Dover, giving me my England fix for the day. Unexpected lyrics though eh?

Introverts most definitely have a place in this world. They contribute in valuable ways every day, as you've shown yourself, cludgie, and described well here.

PS: Full disclosure re my approval of introverts - I lean that way myself, happy in my own company and unlikely to take the stage any time soon.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2021 05:04PM by Nightingale.

I think JS was probably an excellent speaker. After all, he was selling a crock and making a lot of it up as he went along, yet he managed to convince a lot of people to follow him, so I think he was probably very charismatic.

He spun shit into gold, he did.

Soft Machine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think JS was probably an excellent speaker.
> After all, he was selling a crock and making a lot
> of it up as he went along, yet he managed to
> convince a lot of people to follow him, so I think
> he was probably very charismatic.

Oh, he had to be; he never would have got as far as he did without a silver tongue.

In Nauvoo, Hyrum used the High Council to root out immorality in the city before he knew that the rumors of philandering and polygamy had originated with his brother's behavior. A year and a half later, Hyrum--now fully aware that Joseph was the instigator--was publicly defending polygamy and even provided the impetus for Joseph's recording a new "revelation," Section 132, sanctifying the practice.

That takes skill. If Joseph were alive today, I bet he could easily weasel his way into the US presidency he so desired then.

... possibly quite literally, if you've read D. Michael Quinn's "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View" :-D

This is my first post, I am a nevermo who is fascinated by the cult behaviors of Mormonism. I got interested years ago due to being in a business venture with a smug Mormon crook. I have lurked here for years and find it very interesting.

I am also an introvert. I used to belong to a large mainstream church where I blended in and was perfectly happy. Many years later I was a member of a small church where I couldn't be anonymous, at one point my wife and I had to be greeters, living hell for introverts. Reading here, I can't imagine what level of Hell my life would have been if I had been a Mormon.

Thank you to all for the insights! I have been reading a lot lately as I have just moved to the Boise, ID area and I know I am surrounded by them. Other than casually meeting some Mormon neighbors, I have had no real contact with them, I so far have avoided the Missionaries trolling in the local Walmart parking lot.

Welcome to posting Arkay.

"I can't imagine what level of Hell my life would have been if I had been a Mormon."

I think this too.

I was a very short term "convert" who got into the church through friends. They seemed normal to me (the husband was BIC, the wife a devoted convert). I did feel pressured into baptism by the missionaries they set me up with but take responsibility for choosing to go through with it. It was four months after I met with the missionaries that I got baptized and they were busy telling me how slow I was. Their main selling point for the church was how many people they knew of, apparently, who were instantly baptized upon first hearing the message. I never witnessed that myself. I thought that all would be revealed when I went to the temple but my only insight was that I would die young of boredom if I had to regularly attend the temple sessions that members said were the best part of Mormonism. At first I thought there was something wrong with me that (1) I didn't understand most of what was going on; (2) I had the likely heretical thought that Satan seemed to have the starring role - there was way too much Satan for me in what seemed like an endless (and pointless) badly-performed amateur play; and (3) I was bored out of my tree - could not imagine repeating the experience weekly or monthly as nudged to do. I was ecstatic the day I realized that although I generally hold fast to obligations and promises I make, in this case I could just walk away and the universe wouldn't explode on my account. Plus, first time ever, I didn't really stop to worry about what they would think of me.

I reverted back to myself and am relieved I missed out on the full-blown Mormon experience, either from being BIC or trying to stay in longer term.

From reading many posts written by knowledegable BICs through the years, as well as long-term converts, I realize that things could have been way worse. I didn't have to deal with much in the way of expectations of me other than going through the required motions, attending meetings and taking no-nothing callings (such as bulletin board monitor, ha). It didn't seep into my life as it does with BICs nor did it cause much of a ripple. I could tell right away something was wrong as I wasn't at all excited to tell everybody I got baptized Mormon. Even my family doesn't know to this day.

I've learned much, much more about Mormonism and its underbelly here than I likely would have found out being inside it as a convert who was held at a distance. My bishop was a convert and he felt that he and his siblings were saved by Mormonism due to his father's heavy drinking which negatively affected them as kids. He was perhaps more understanding of my viewpoints than a BIC bishop may have been. He also knew that I had had an unfortunate baptism experience so I think he was surprised I even lasted as long as I did (not much over a year). My Mormon friends who set up my missionary meets felt that the whole thing had been a big fat waste of their time. No kidding. Mine too.

I can well understand from the insights offered by RfM participants how much time it can take for BICs and longer term converts to get over their Mormon experiences. They all know a lot more about the faith than I ever learned or experienced. I appreciate hearing from them about changes to the BoM, for instance, and how the leadership hierarchy works. I was also not aware before of fundamentalist Mormonism, especially their legacy of polygamy, which exists even in Canada as well as in Utah and other US states.

This place is a goldmine of information!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2021 07:34PM by Nightingale.

Welcome, Arkay. In case you haven't figured it out, I'm a fellow nevermo. My interest in Mormonism developed when a good friend converted to the church. Thankfully, in time, she came to see that Mormonism was not for her.

I also found this, like Cludgie, in other aspects of life. I had parents, especially a mother, who was perpetually on committees and “ high” Relief Society positions. I have lost track of the number of times I have declined nominations to positions and declare that I would rather make sandwiches and cups of tea than be in a leadership role. I also despair about the wasted time of unproductive meeting after unproductive meeting.

As a corollary I have noted that I feel a certain affinity with some posters more than others and unsurprisingly they often reveal themselves as fellow introverts. See posters above! Hi Cludgie.

He HATED the meetings. He said that he didn't know a group of men could gossip so much.

Good to see OzDoc.

As an extroverted female I have the exact opposite option of you cludgie. Most of my life I wished that I could be an introvert and not have such a need to share my thoughts and opinions."keep sweet" well as an extrovert when a Relief Society lesson is about keeping the Sunday holy and a person says that's why she choose to become a teacher so she has weekends of and worship the lord me as a nurse will raise my hand and say I love god too and just because people also get sick on Sundays doesn't make me less of a god loving person. I was not allowed to talk during Relief Society lessons I would raise my hand and they would not pick me. One of the last Relief Society lessons I was in mentioned how Helen Mar Kimball was a few months shy of her 15 birthday when she married Joseph Smith. The Relief Society president read the manual at the time I did not know that. Well right away my hand went up and the Relief Society president said that at this time they don't take any comments or questions. I truly believe if I was an introvert my life would be easier.

subeamnotlogedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of the last Relief Society
> lessons I was in mentioned how Helen Mar Kimball
> was a few months shy of her 15 birthday when she
> married Joseph Smith.

Eek. Ugh.


> I truly
> believe if I was an introvert my life would be
> easier.

I guess there's pros and cons to each. Maybe better to be Mama Bear who found middle ground. Or something like that.

We live and learn.

I have accepted every church calling and gotten in "trouble" quite often. One time I was in the nursery and the young men's president kid bite my kid. There was a bite mark through the shirt. My introverted husband did not want to say anything but I ofcourse had to. The end result was the bishop, RS president und primary president had a meeting about me how I am lacking faith. They released me from the nursery calling and the child kept biting till he moved up to sunbeams.

Ha I should have not accepted the calling in the first place. After my child got bitten I should have not returned instead I went back and it happened over and over again. Two people for over 20 kids Everytime I would turn my head the Young men's president kid was hurting another child. When I take to his mom about it she started yelling at me that I was lying. So after I was out of the nursery calling the new nurses leader constantly had to bring him out to his parents for hitting and or biting. That was one year of hell but me as an extrovert was not about to give up I was determined to fulfill my calling. After young men's presidents wife complained about me to the bishop I got released.

I believe that it takes both introverts and extroverts to keep society functioning. However, in the church it seemed like too often the introverts were doing the actual work while the extroverts were bragging about what they were going to do or taking credit for what the introverts had done.

"Only he who does something helps others to live.
The world has no use for the drone."

Aren't extroverts the ones who drone?

Maybe an extrovert can change another extrovert by talking. That doesn't work on an introvert, it just gives them a bone to chew on.

Nice, Cludgie. Very good. Thank you.


For those who must hire and fire for a living: be leery of the confident and well put together and look at least twice at the less confident and awkward. The later are more likely to work harder and be more loyal.

An important thread! Thanks, Cludgie!

A book to affirm the value of being an introvert is Susan Crain's "Quiet". She gave (what must have been excruciating for her) a wonderful talk about her book on TED -"The Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking."

https://www.ted.com/talks/susan_cain_the_power_of_introverts

She points out for one thing that extroverts jump to insert their views on a subject while introverts sit back and think things through before speaking.

Who said, "It's better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."?

I discovered the book during a difficult time in my life. It
identified me exactly and provided the boost I needed to finish
a successful career with flying colors.

BcE

Very interesting. I just finished the introduction. One thing she points out is that introvert does NOT mean shy. They are different and extroverts can be shy. I am looking forward to reading more of it. Thanks for the lead :)

It was common for missionaries to get a mini vacation from assigned companions after a zone meeting. Sometimes two quiet guys would get paired and surprise! They wouldn't do anything. Both were content to just stand on the street. 90 minutes later, they were still at the same spot, not even talking to each other.

I am an introvert and loathed missionary work. I was the kind of elder who just accepted that most people didn't want to be bothered and would say something pleasant before walking away. This was UNACCEPTABLE in most missions and I was pummeled for giving up so easily.

I am an introvert who felt that missionary work really drained me to interact with others. I had trainers who pushed me to teach all discussions each and every day. Most exhaustive as I have never been thrilled to meet new people.

Yeah, I think there's a scripture somewhere that ranks introversion as the sin next to the sin next to murder.

Your comment is one of those moments when I wish that RfM had a "like" button with appropriate emojis.

I have a sort of postscript to my post: I was just thinking that, in the life of bees, there is no honey without the drones, who mate with the queen. Tell me that's not important. And worker bees are literally the bees most depended upon. Go out. Get. Bring back. Make product. Repeat.

Also, I should have added complaints about being on a mission, as did a couple of you above. All missionaries were being groomed for leadership. I know this because it's what they endlessly told us. But, while I wasn't the extrovert they always hoped for, neither were the greatest lot of us. I worked, though, and worked hard, back in the day when we were up at 6am, out by 7am, and had no deadline for coming back to the apartment and going to bed, because Italy. We frequently had to teach to 11pm or so, and sometimes even missed the last bus for that evening, and had to walk, often arriving back at 1am.

We had one missionary from my Italian class who turned right around and went back after only 2 months because of being made to do "door approaches" in his faltering Italian. One of my companions, whom I couldn't even get out of bed sometimes, went home after only a year. (In retrospect, I'm sure he was suffering from depression, unable to get up and face the day. And who could blame him?)

And now, a rant:

A mission is no place to send a boy or girl if they are uncomfortable about what the demands are. I was really sure about one thing: I really wanted to go to Italy, and... Basta. The rest of it was just superfluous crap. And yet I baptized 10 people, which, in today's Mormon Italy, is unheard of. We had a couple of fast talkers who baptized as many as 30 or so hapless Italians. They, of course, became zone leaders and assistants to the president. I was once a branch president in Milan, which actually turned out to be a pretty good experience. They liked me because I am, at heart, a gentle person who refused to condemn people who had recently been yanked out of their traditional religious life that is part of their social fabric, to be shoved into an upstart American religion run by boys who were hoping to avoid Vietnam, and who always publicly condemned them for stupid things, like driving small Italian cars, and having small refrigerators and washing machines.

Stand by for some off-topic bragging about Italy:

I got transferred to Rome with my family in 1997, and found that the Italians had raced way ahead of the Americans in telecommunications and mobile technology, making me feel like an idiot when the telecom company was asking me whether or not I wanted dial-up Internet, or high-speed DSL (what ATT still uses). Or did I want fibre optic direct to my home? I was, like, What now? Are we speaking Japanese? Today's Italy is one of the world leaders in medicine. And it will always be the country that people turn to whenever they need the kind of repairs that require someone who specializes in old crafts, because Italy lives a comfortable life between the ancient and the new.

I'm so ashamed to day of how we acted as young guys in a foreign country when the United States were considered such a big deal (Aldrin & Co. landed on the moon while I was there), and considered Italy just a "small" (big as California, actually, with more shoreline than even China) nation with silly people who pursued the Great Satan. Now I see that Italy is one of the best countries in the world, pushing far ahead of us in quality of life.

cludgie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All missionaries were being groomed for leadership. I
> know this because it's what they endlessly told us.

And yet they told us bullsh!t like, "Before you can become a good leader you need to become a good follower." No, those are polar opposite attributes.

What they really meant was, "Before you can rise to middle management (bishop, stake president, etc.) in the church you need to learn to do exactly what the leaders above you on the ladder say without questioning anything."

Speaking of Italy and the old/new thing, you may be interested in this.

https://italiantribune.com/the-surprising-method-used-to-clean-medici-chapel/

Great work done by a team of women.

“In-Your-Face Introvert”


Does this resonate with anyone?

Absolutely!

BcE

Fellow introvert here. Always hated being the center of attention, never like giving talks (one notable example came when I only had two days to prepare a talk. I froze up at the podium and couldn't get a word out), and I'd rather be given a task to be done alone or with another introvert. Give me clear instructions and resources, I'll go above and beyond so I can be left alone.

Of course, this is blasphemy to Mormonism and Americans in general. They think the extroverts are the leaders and "alpha males" (even thought wolf packs in the wild don't have alphas) while introverts are the plebs. The way I see it, extroverts tend to be good at networking and being "the face" of things. Introverts tend to get shit done.

An important difference between extroverts and introverts is the way they are energized. Extroverts gain energy in being in a group. They get more energized the longer the party goes. Introverts get drained in a crowd and need to retreat - like to a library or something.

The way I see that play out is that an extrovert would find it much harder to give up "the group" while an introvert would seek space to explore thoughts and questions, and hence be more likely to discover the truth about tscc.

Does that make any sense?

Twinker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The way I see that play out is that an extrovert
> would find it much harder to give up "the group"
> while an introvert would seek space to explore
> thoughts and questions, and hence be more likely
> to discover the truth about tscc.
>
> Does that make any sense?

Perfect sense.

Leaders and aspiring leaders — in and out of the church — could never understand why I had no interest in being a leader. At least in the outside world leadership positions mean higher pay, more perks, and less grunt work, but in Mormonism it's just status and the right to boss people around — negated by more meetings and less free time. But LDS doctrine, at its basic level, is about social climbing and status on both an earthly and heavenly level. It's not surprising since it was invented by a status hungry poor guy. It's why his pitch was that every male gets special power and authority and everyone has a chance to get into the VIP room in heaven, maybe even become god. THAT'S status.

I can certainly relate to olderelder. I was an engineering supervisor for 23 years. Finally decided I just wanted to go back to being a lowly engineer and not supervise anyone other than myself. I took a position with a consulting firm that wanted me to then manage 50 people. I turned it down and asked for a desk where I could be alone. It was a pay cut for the first year. By the 3rd year I was earning 50% more than I was as a supervisor when clients discovered the quality of my work. Being an introvert can pay off. I remained for the last 7 years of my career mostly working alone and the only thing the firm had to do was approve my time sheets and expense reports. I regretted not going into consulting earlier. I have always struggled with self esteem. Leaving Mormonism many years earlier gave me knowledge that I do not have to go with the herd nor strive to be a leader. I was very fortunate to retire early as a result.

The bishop wanted different reports that had already been processed and filed away. It wasn't a single month of data but a slew of reports over several months.

So I pulled out the folders and staked out some clerk office real estate in no man's land - the counter space between the financial clerk and the coveted church computer.

No sooner had I had around 12 to 15 folders spread out, in comes the church facility manager and two other men with tape measures. They plop their binders right on top of my stuff and one decides that he's going to rest his seat of his pants on the counter. I am the last clerk in the office trying to hold on my own.

I push back- Get your rear end off my folders and they tell me to go somewhere else. They were measuring the fire sprinkler heads in relation to the walls. Others come inside the office and I feel suffocated. I grab my files and retreat and these loud obnoxious church leaders are in the office having their own party.

Before I can think where to go as the building was being shared with other ward, the bishop comes out of his office demanding the requested files.

I ended up working from the confines of my pickup. It took more time, but nobody bothered me save for members who thought I was leaving. They stopped their cars with blinkers going waiting for me to leave.