For Veteran's Day tomorrow, Remembrance Day in Britain and the Commonwealth, remembering the cousin I never knew Pvt. Ronald A. Andrews killed August 12, 1944. South Staffordshire Regiment, buried Brouay War Cemetery, Brouay, Normandy. A tiny corner of foreign field "that is forever England".

"At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them."

Today is the 246th birthday of America's premier fighting force.

OOOoooooo-RAH!

A day that will never be forgotten by patriots, and our unforgettable generals and leaders Churchill, Patton, let freedom ring!

Tomorrow morning I’ll contribute something to this.

I Don’t Want to be a Soldier

(To the tune of ‘On Sunday I walk out with a Soldier’)

I don’t want to be a soldier,
I don’t want to go to war.
I’d rather stay at home,
Around the streets to roam,
And live on the earnings of a well-paid whore.
I don’t want a bayonet up my arse-hole,
I don’t want my ballocks shot away.
I’d rather stay in England,
In merry merry England,
And fornicate my bloody life away.”

—Anonymous—

More appropriate to the thread is that tomorrow marks the 100th anniversary since the dedication of the Tomb of the Unknown in Arlington. It followed the dedication of the French unknown under the Arc de Triumph in Paris and the British unknown in Westminster Abbey. Don't know about the French but Britain and the US each awarded the other their highest military award. The Congressional Medal of Honor from the United States and the Victoria Cross from Great Britain.

The dedication of the British tomb was attended by a massive outpouring of public attendance. With around 800,000 dead there was an extremely high percentage (50,000 honored on the Menin Gate memorial for the Ypres Salient alone) of whom no remains were ever found to be buried. For countless thousands they attended in the hopes that perhaps it was their son, husband, father, or brother in the tomb. I am sure the same scene was observed in Arlington and in Paris where their loses of more than 1,920,000 were more than double the terrible British loses.

I have stood before the British tomb many times and always felt impressed by the closing words on the inscription. "They buried him among kings because he had done good toward God and toward his house."

Haven't been to Arlington but would enjoy the feelings of those who have. Lest we forget. I personally never will especially for WW2.

I toured Arlington on a school week in DC at 16. Seeing our monuments was a huge deal to this Midwestern teen.

The Tomb of the Unknown is inspiring. It caused 100+ teenagers to be silent. We also saw the eternal flame on JFK’s grave.

The cemetery is beautiful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2021 06:58PM by sbg.

It is amazing how a cemetery can be described as beautiful. I had the same sense of beauty at the US cemetery at Omaha Beach when I visited there. My cousin's grave is just a short distance away and the whole area has a sense of memorial.

My middle name is Andrew. I'm named for my uncle Andy who was killed in battle defending the Gothic line in Italy on Sept.1 1944. Tomorrow I will honor him and many other family members who served in the Canadian and American armed forces.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2021 05:20PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

Hi LR. That's a nice remembrance that you're named after your uncle. I'll think of him tomorrow. Andy was my beloved grandfather's name too. Even his four girls called him Andy.

I don't have any relatives who served in the Canadian or US forces but some in the British Army as well as the Navy, some in wars, others fortunately during relative peace. One of my Scottish relatives was a POW for four years in WWII. He was ill in the prison camp but ended up living a long and happy life after demobbing. Amazingly, he corresponded throughout his life with a German physician he had known in the camp. That alone illustrates to me the utter futility and tragedy of warfare – combatants on opposing sides, fighting, killing, dying, when in other circumstances they could be friends with each other.

The troops of all countries must engage at the commands of their superiors and when conscription is a factor there is zero choice for the average service member about whether to go and what to do once there. I've been watching a series about WWII and the slaughter in Europe is still horrific and beyond tragic, all these years later. "We shall remember them" is a poignant tribute every November 11. However, many lie in unmarked graves, a lasting tragedy for loved ones.

In Canada the WWI battle of Vimy Ridge is especially memorable. Our Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is in Ottawa and the soldier is from this battle.

From the Canadian War Museum – The Battle of Vimy Ridge (April 9-12, 1917):

https://www.warmuseum.ca/the-battle-of-vimy-ridge/

“Many historians and writers consider the Canadian victory at Vimy a defining moment for Canada, when the country emerged from under the shadow of Britain and felt capable of greatness. Canadian troops also earned a reputation as formidable, effective troops because of the stunning success. But it was a victory at a terrible cost, with more than 10,000 killed and wounded.

“The Canadian Corps was ordered to seize Vimy Ridge in April 1917. Situated in northern France, the heavily-fortified seven-kilometre ridge held a commanding view over the Allied lines. The Canadians would be assaulting over an open graveyard since previous French attacks had failed with over 100,000 casualties.

“…the four Canadian divisions stormed the ridge at 5:30am on 9 April 1917. More than 15,000 Canadian infantry overran the Germans all along the front. Incredible bravery and discipline allowed the infantry to continue moving forward under heavy fire, even when their officers were killed.There were countless acts of sacrifice, as Canadians single-handedly charged machine-gun nests or forced the surrender of Germans in protective dugouts. Hill 145, the highest and most important feature of the Ridge, and where the Vimy monument now stands, was captured in a frontal bayonet charge against machine-gun positions. Three more days of costly battle delivered final victory. The Canadian operation was an important success, even if the larger British and French offensive, of which it had been a part, had failed. But it was victory at a heavy cost: 3,598 Canadians were killed and another 7,000 wounded.

“The capture of Vimy was more than just an important battlefield victory. For the first time all four Canadian divisions attacked together: men from all regions of Canada were present at the battle. Brigadier-General A.E. Ross declared after the war, “in those few minutes I witnessed the birth of a nation.”

“Vimy became a symbol for the sacrifice of the young Dominion. In 1922, the French government ceded to Canada in perpetuity Vimy Ridge, and the land surrounding it. The gleaming white marble and haunting sculptures of the Vimy Memorial, unveiled in 1936, stand as a terrible and poignant reminder of the 11,285 Canadian soldiers killed in France who have no known graves."


Here's what the Canadian War Museum has to say about the Unknown Soldier and the significance of Vimy to us:

“The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier … was built at the front of Canada's National War Memorial in Ottawa to contain the remains of an unknown Canadian soldier who died in France sometime during the First World War (1914-1918).

“This soldier was brought back to Canada by the Canadian Forces May 25, 2000.

“Carefully kept records of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, the organization that looks after the graves and memorials commemorating the one and three quarter million men and women of the navies, armies, air forces and merchant navies of the British Commonwealth countries who died in the First and Second World Wars, show that the soldier was a Canadian. We also know that he died in France in the First World War.

“[Deceased soldiers] identified only as Canadians were buried under a gravestone stating "A Canadian Soldier of the Great War - Known Unto God." Many were not found at all. Of the more than 66,000 Canadians who died in the First World War, almost 20,000 have no identifiable grave. Of the nearly 117,000 Canadians who have died in all wars since the birth of our country, a total of 28,000 have no known grave.

“… one grave [was selected] from among the 1,603 unknown Canadians whose graves are located in the vicinity of Vimy Ridge, a famous First World War battle site where Canadian troops fought as a combined force for the first time. Canadians served in that part of France for much of the war, and in particular for most of the period from the fall of 1916 to the spring of 1918. Many of the military cemeteries in the area reflect that reality, and contain unidentified soldiers' remains from many of the battles which occurred over that time.

“The Government of Canada … established the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier to remind all Canadians of the human cost of our country's commitment to the cause of peace and freedom in the past, in the present, and in the future.

“Remains [of this unknown soldier] were exhumed on Tuesday morning 16 May 2000 from Cabaret-Rouge British Cemetery, Souchez, Plot 8, Row E, Grave 7.

“The cemetery was established by British troops in March 1916 then used until August 1917 largely by the Canadian Corps and the UK's 47th (London) Division. It was then used sparingly until September 1918 and after the Armistice was greatly enlarged by the concentration of over 7,000 graves from battlefields around Arras and other burial grounds located in the French Administrative Regions of Nord and Pas-de-Calais.

"Cabaret-Rouge" refers to a house located approximately one kilometre south of Souchez. In turn this name was given to a communications trench which ended just east of the cemetery location. The cemetery is approximately 3.5 km north of Arras, just west of the Vimy Memorial.

“There are approximately 8,000 burials in this cemetery amongst which are 325 identified and 425 unidentified Canadians.

“Is anything known about the remains of this particular soldier?

“No. …nothing [is] known about the casualty.

“Why was Cabaret-Rouge Cemetery chosen?

“Canada (Veterans Affairs) asked the Commission to specially consider the Vimy area when investigating suitable remains for repatriation. The Vimy area was defined as a strip of land approximately 25 km in length running from Loos-en-Gohelle in the north and Neuville-Vitasse in the south, an area of concentrated Canadian achievement.”

-----

Of course, we also remember all those who fought in WWII. Here's an outline of Canadian action in some well known battles.

https://www.mta.ca/library/courage/canadasroleinwwii.html

"Canada entered the 1939-1945 War on 10th September 1939. Within two months the first contingents of Canadian troops arrived in the United Kingdom to supplement the British Expeditionary Forces (BEF). Forestalled by the evacuation of the British Army from Dunkirk and the Channel ports, Canada's role became one of defence of the British Isles. Far across the globe a small force of Canadians arrived in Hong Kong in time to meet the Japanese invasion, and fought with the British, Indian and Hong Kong forces in defence of the colony until the surrender on Christmas Day 1941.

Dieppe:

"On l9th August 1942 troops of the Canadian 2nd Division formed the bulk of the Dieppe Raid. Of the 5,000 Canadians who took part, only about 2,000 returned to England: nearly 1,000 had been killed and 2,000 taken prisoner. A further 500 Canadians lost their lives when they landed in Sicily as part of the Eighth Army on 10th July 1943.

The Cost of Battle:

"On 3rd September a combined Canadian, British and American force made the first full-scale invasion of mainland Europe, attacking on the 'toe' of Italy and reaching Naples on 1st October. Canadian troops fought at Ortona and Monte Cassino and in May 1944 took part in the costly, but successful, attack on the Hitler line: the first major operation by a Canadian corps in the 1939-1945 War. The battle northwards through Italy continued to the war's end and ultimately cost the lives of nearly 6,000 Canadians.

Normandy:

"Landing in Normandy on 6th June 1944 as part of the Allied invasion force, the Canadians played an important role in the battle to take Caen. They then advanced along the French seacoast to the Pas-de-Calais and took Dieppe on 1st September. Canadians fought with British soldiers in the freeing of the Scheldt Estuary and success here enabled the first Allied convoy to arrive in Antwerp in November 1944."

...And much more...


Canadians were there on D-Day too.

"Nearly 150,000 Allied troops landed or parachuted into the invasion area on D-Day, including 14,000 Canadians at Juno Beach. The Royal Canadian Navy contributed 110 ships and 10,000 sailors and the RCAF contributed 15 fighter and fighter-bomber squadrons to the assault. Total Allied casualties on D-Day reached more than 10,000, including 1,074 Canadians, of whom 359 were killed. By the end of the Battle of Normandy, the Allies had suffered 209,000 casualties, including more than 18,700 Canadians. Over 5,000 Canadian soldiers died."

-----


Thanks for this thread, kentish. Last year we mentioned Vera Lynn, and Spitfires somewhere along the way. This is for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWlelVf3l0Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUx3MU9iM6c

PS: I forgot to say that I will also think of Pvt. Ronald A. Andrews on November 11, 2021 at 11:00 a.m.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2021 11:13PM by Nightingale.

The most shocking thing, personally, about Vimy Ridge was that if it weren't on a very flat plain, you probably wouldn't even notice the "ridge"... To think that all those people died to take or hold what's basically a wrinkle in a flat surface really brought home to me the futility of it all (which does not detract from their sacrifice but certainly makes it more bitter. Thanks for the thread, Kentish.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2021 01:26AM by Soft Machine.

Thanks Nightingale.

Nightingale Wrote:
-----------------------One of my
> Scottish relatives was a POW for four years in
> WWII. He was ill in the prison camp but ended up
> living a long and happy life after demobbing.
> Amazingly, he corresponded throughout his life
> with a German physician he had known in the camp.
> That alone illustrates to me the utter futility
> and tragedy of warfare – combatants on opposing
> sides, fighting, killing, dying, when in other
> circumstances they could be friends with each
> other.
>


https://www.history.com/topics/christmas-truce-1914-world-war-i-soldier-accounts

Antifa kicked Hitler's ass.

My family connection goes back a bit farther.

My grandpa fought at Belleau Wood in WWI. Because of that, both he (born Canadian) and my grandma (born German) were granted U.S. citizenship.

Both of my parents were in the U.S. Army (they met there) in WWII, though neither saw combat. Mother was a Lieutenant and Dad was a sergeant, so they weren't supposed to be dating, but at least they waited until after they were out of the military to marry.

For kentish:

The Soldier

If I should die, think only this of me:
That there’s some corner of a foreign field
That is for ever England. There shall be
In that rich earth a richer dust concealed;
A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware,
Gave, once, her flowers to love, her ways to roam,
A body of England’s, breathing English air,
Washed by the rivers, blest by suns of home.
And think, this heart, all evil shed away,
A pulse in the eternal mind, no less
Gives somewhere back the thoughts by England given;
Her sights and sounds; dreams happy as her day;
And laughter, learnt of friends; and gentleness,
In hearts at peace, under an English heaven.

—Rupert Brooke—

Thank you. It is amazing that wars, turmoil,and tragedy, especially WW1 it seems.often produces a flood of artistic endeavor. Brooke was one of many wonderful posts produced out of the war. This one, written early in the war. was full of the idealism that marked attitudes in WW1 in its early stages. Overwhelming death in fields of mud soon destroyed all that. Brooke served,dying of something like sepsis, shortly before he would have been part of the terrible Gallipoli campaign.

posts should be poets

Nightingale, thank you for the vids. Saw Vera Lynn in concert when I was about 13. She was about as iconic as the Spitfire. i saw one flying a year or two ago not too far from the white cliffs. I was awaiting a ferry to France and one flew over followed by a helicopter. I think they were filming Spit scenes for the movie Dunkirk.

As a very young boy in London in the latter part of the war I learned to recognize the different nationalities of the soldiers that seemed to be everywhere. Plenty of Canadians among the standout ones from Australia, India, and the United States and I think people of that time were appreciative of why they were there.

The Dieppe raid you mentioned was an amazing effort that perhaps people today know little about. Moe than one film has been made about it. Just the other day I watched a new movie (Netflix or Prime) that covers the battle at Scheldt and there is a sequence showing Canadian troops assaulting German positions. I think the film is called The Forgotten Battle.

It has a sequence of the massive air armada on its way to Arnhem (A Bridge Too Far)and inside one of the flimsy gliders used to transport airborne troops. Scary stuff that reminded me of a man I worked with as a teen who was a glider pilot on that very assault. He was lucky to get out alive after they came down on a German tank battalion taking R&R at the drop zone. Plenty of brave Polish flyers there, too.

I have always taken time to talk to veterans with war experiences from a WW1 soldier who lied about his age to get into the trenches when he was 17, to a teacher who was a navigator on Lancaster bombers, to the glider pilot mentioned above; and especially to my dad who though not in the military served in the Auxiliary Fire Service in a heavy rescue unit during the blitz. Some nasty experiences there.

It's rare that I see a WW2 veteran these days but in the past when I did I always tried to take a moment to ask them about their service and whether or not it took them to England. Perhaps one of them was one of those we scruffy city kids gathered around in the hopes of some gum or chocolate. Something we rarely saw otherwise.

People today disconnected to the events of WW2 often get into arguments over who won the war or would it have been won if such and such had happened or not happened. I respect all those who contributed, from wherever, but in real terms my cousin mentioned above won the war, and countless thousands just like him. Honor and respect to them all on this day especially.

My mother's first cousin died in WWI. I wear a poppy in his memory. That cataclysm had much to do with our world today.

Good on you. They are all over in Britain at this time of year and I am always touched by the poppy drop (more than a million) that takes place at the yearly Festival of Remembrance in the Royal Albert Hall, London. This Saturday's commemoration will likely be up on YT pretty soon. My favorite from a year or two ago was Amore singing words to Elgar's variation Nimrod, a piece synonymous with Remembrance Day.

schweizerkind Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That cataclysm had much to do with our world today.

Truer words are rarely said. WWI ruined Europe, engendered the USSR, permanently alienated without adequately weakening Germany, undermined the stability of Eastern Europe, robbed France and Britain of their self-confidence, and deprived the continent of a generation of promising young people who might have forestalled the next conflagration.

It was truly the Great War although Enormous might have been the better adjective. That was when the West, and in fact the world, lost its innocence.

Google “There Won’t Be Many Coming Home” by Roy Orbison.

A follow-up to this topic, a friend sent me this preview of an upcoming documentary. Very powerful.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7905466/

Interesting site. The line of soldiers, hand on the shoulder of the man in front, is a reminder of the deadly gas that was used and to me, too, of why I had a gas mask as a kid in WW2.

Kipling wrote a tremendous poem on the subject.

The Garden called Gethsemane
In Picardy it was,
And there the people came to see
The English soldiers pass
Or halt, as it might be,
And slip our masks in case of gas
Beyond Gethsemane


The garden called Gethsemane,
It held a pretty lass.
But all the time she talked to me
I prayed my cup might pass.
The officer sat on the chair,
The men lay on the grass,
And all the time we halted there
I prayed my cup might pass.


It didn't pass -- it didn't pass
It didn't pass from me,
I drank it when we met the gas
Beyond Gethsemane.


Kipling didn't serve in WW1 but he lost his only son Jack early in the war in the battle at Loos and because of other service i he related to the serving ranks. He has been called the soldier's poet Somewhere on YT there is an actual recording, very old, of Kipling reciting his famous poem Boots.

Among other thins caused by WW1, the death and suffering marked the great decline in religious faith in Britain and the rest of Europe.

I believe Kipling gets a bad rap. His books are full of fascination and respect for the peoples of other countries, particularly India. Judged by the standards of the time he had definitely "gone native."

Yes, he grew bitter and resentful after he lost his beloved son; and The White Man's Burden and other poems/phrases reflected some of the most condescending ideas of Victorian imperialism. But he opened up new worlds for parochial Europeans, encouraged understanding of other cultures, and memorialized some of the greatest, and the worst, moments of contemporary history.

And yes, WWI killed religion in Europe. It also killed the somewhat naive alternative: faith in Enlightenment humanity, positivism, and even democracy. It was probably the most devastating unnecessary war--of which there have been many--in history.

I think we are all very much the product of our time but with the passing of our own time here we can and do evolve, sometimes with the times and sometimes in spite of them. I think it easy to draw conclusions on the life of someone like Kipling when we have its entirety to look at from a distance.

Like anyone else he had his qualities and his flaws, opinions and prejudices to wrestle with. I suspect one burden he must have carried was not doing enough, but even helping, his son get into the army despite being rejected for service. Great story teller and observer of life that came out in his writings and poetry.

One of my all time favorite movies is from Kipling's The Man Who Would be King.

I am fond of that movie although I think parts of it haven't aged terribly well. But the underlying story as written by Kipling is an absolute gem, one of his best. I read the Jungle Books to each of my children and did Kim, another spectacular story, with one of them.

A lot of British had by Kipling's time been exposed to different parts of the world but the majority knew so very little about the subcontinent, and then appears a highly skilled writer (early critics be damned) who could shed light on the people and places as viewed through a child's eyes. His class and racial biases notwithstanding, he loved India and Indians and told their stories with something approaching awe. Le Carre reprised Kipling's empathetic accounts very nicely in Absolute Friends; and Orwell's Burmese Days are in some ways comparable.

But for my money Kipling was the best at what he did, particularly before old age and the decline of Europe transformed him into a sadder and more bitter old man.

The nature of his life is one thing to me. His observations expressed in brilliant words is another and I admits that ability immensely.

Admire.

I stick to the fact that our so-called "Veterans Day" is really a very solemn British/ANZAC event--Remembrance Day--about the Great War (WWI). It was a terrible war that took so many British and ANZAC forces. Americans, on the other hand, only entered the war in the final year, and while they did lose a good number (117,000), many of the deaths were from Spanish Flu, which the Americans brought over from Nebraska, oddly enough; I don't know what is "Spanish" about it. But we co-opted an otherwise non-American observation, and made it about us. And in the US, it is not a very solemn occasion, except for kids placing small American flags on the graves of people who served in the military. I was always embarrassed for my people when I worked at Ft. Gordon, GA, with many uniformed Canadian and British soldiers, sailors, and airmen. The Canadians and British held an annual Commonwealth Ball, and earned some of the money for it by selling red Remembrance Day poppies in the dining hall during lunch. I always bought one from the Canadians, and one from the Brits. I'd hang them on my badge lanyard, and then all day long would have to answer the question, "What is that? Why are you wearing that?"

I Remember ..