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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 11:57AM

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-concept-of-race-is-a-lie/

According to scientists, the concept of race is a lie,

“In combating this increase in racism, there are two primary aspects to consider. The first is that the very idea of “race” is a lie: as the American Society of Human Genetics, the largest professional organization of scientists in the field, explained in an essay:
“The science of genetics demonstrates that humans cannot be divided into biologically distinct subcategories”; and it “challenges the traditional concept of different races of humans as biologically separate and distinct. This is validated by many decades of research.” In other words, “race itself is a social construct,” with no biological basis.
In 2014, more than 130 leading population geneticists condemned the idea that genetic differences account for the economic, political, social and behavioral diversity around the world. In fact, said a 2018 article in Scientific American, there is a “broad scientific consensus that when it comes to genes there is just as much diversity within racial and ethnic groups as there is across them.” And the Human Genome Project has confirmed that the genomes found around the globe are 99.9 percent identical in every person. Hence, the very idea of different “races” is nonsense.”

DNA evidence proves we are all 99.9% genetically identical.

“When researchers completed the final analysis of the Human Genome Project in April 2003, they confirmed that the 3 billion base pairs of genetic letters in humans were 99.9 percent identical in every person. It also meant that individuals are, on average, 0.1 percent different genetically from every other person on the planet.”

https://www.genome.gov/17516714/2006-release-about-whole-genome-association-studies#:~:text=When%20researchers%20completed%20the%20final,percent%20identical%20in%20every%20person.

So how does Harvard defend discriminating against Asians, based upon their ‘race’ in admissions?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 12:13PM

I’m sure Harvard is up to date regarding race theory.

So obviously they are NOT discriminating on the basis of race, they are simply limiting the number ‘those guys’ they let in.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 12:25PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
they are simply limiting the number
> ‘those guys’ they let in.

Guys suspected of wrongthink.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 12:44PM

Plaintiff allegations
In the lawsuit, the plaintiffs claimed that Harvard imposes a soft racial quota, which keeps the numbers of Asian-Americans artificially low. The percentage of Asians admitted to Harvard, plaintiffs maintained, was suspiciously similar year after year despite dramatic increases in the number of Asian-American applicants and the size of the Asian-American population.

Peter Arcidiacono, a Duke economist testifying on behalf of the plaintiffs, concluded that Asian-American applicants as a group performed stronger on objective measures of academic achievement and extracurricular activities. Despite this, they received a statistically significant penalty relative to white applicants in the personal score and overall score assigned by Harvard officials. As a result, Asian-American applicants have the lowest chance of admission of all racial groups in the United States despite scoring highest in all objective measurements, Arcidiacono testified that removing the personal score penalty of Asian applicants relative to white applicants would result in a 16% increase in the number of admitted Asian-Americans.

Arcidiacono suggested that the applicant's race plays a significant role in admissions decisions. According to his testimony, if an Asian-American applicant with certain characteristics (like scores, GPAs, and extracurricular activities, family background) would result in a 25% statistical likelihood of admission, the same applicant, if white, will have a 36% likelihood of admission. A Hispanic and black applicant with the same characteristics will have a 77% and 95% predicted chance of admission, respectively.

Harvard itself found a statistically significant penalty against Asian-American applicants in an internal investigation in 2013, but had never made the findings public or acted on them. Plaintiffs and commentators have compared the treatment of Asians with the Jewish quota in place in the early 20th century, which used the allegedly “deficient” one-dimensional personalities of immigrant Jews as the reason for excluding non-legacy Jews in elite universities.

Defendant responses
Harvard denies engaging in discrimination and said its admissions philosophy complies with the law. The school said the percentage of Asian-American students admitted has grown from 17% to 21% in a decade while Asian-Americans represent around 6% of the U.S. population. Various students, alumni and external groups filed friend-of-the-court briefs on both sides.

UC Berkeley economist David Card testified on behalf of Harvard and indicated in a report that SFFA's analysis of the personal ratings excluded personal essays and letters of recommendation from teachers and guidance counselors, and that the difference as an aggregate was almost negligible compared to white students. Furthermore, that report found that in SFFA's modeling of the academic rating, Asian Americans scored higher on the academic rating than other racial groups, which would add complexity to the claim that Harvard is intentionally discriminating against Asian Americans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v._President_and_Fellows_of_Harvard_College#Plaintiff_allegations

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 01:19PM

I am reminded of the derisive tee shirt slogan at my grandson's university: If I had wanted an A I would have gone to Harvard.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 12:20PM


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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 03:19PM

"The concept of race is a lie."

COMMENT: "Concepts" are not lies, they are just, well, concepts. Statements and assertions can be false, and if made intentionally, they are lies.

Moreover, the concept of 'race' is quite legitimate and useful if defined in a social setting where "racial" identity is defined by appearances, populations, or preferences. That is precisely the 'concept' of race that Harvard was intending to address--not genetic-based race. As such, Harvard has no 'defending' to do--except as to whether its admissions criteria are moral mandated to ensure diversity and fairness. In America, 'race' as a concept is used as a vehicle for social stereotyping and prejudice. As such, as a concept it is alive and well, whether geneticists like it or not.

Finally, if you remove "race" as a legitimate social concept, then 'racism' is also a fiction. That means attempts to address discrimination, bigotry, and prejudice directed at convenient racial categories of people who are physically and historically 'different' in very apparent ways, also becomes misguided.

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Posted by: Visitors Welcome ( )
Date: January 18, 2022 01:55AM

Henry Bemis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Finally, if you remove "race" as a legitimate
> social concept, then 'racism' is also a fiction.

That is nonsense. No one group of people is superior to the other, but that doesn't mean they cannot fool themselves in believing they are.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 03:38PM

Henry, Henry, Henry!

You're bringing logic and 'humaness' to a "Cat'-fight, where only quotations from erudite publications pushing The Cat's current POV are allowed.


I wonder how many times in the last 20 years I've had to fill out a form where I've checked off "Mexican-American" AND "White Race?

We could ask The Cat what his point is in again and again...and again, bringing this, and his other issues, to Recovery from Mormonism but there is a limit to how much incoherence one should be asked to suffer.

I suppose he is just bound and determined to drag us into the 20th Century despite our best efforts.

I say this in the name of Albert Spinoza Einstein Sagan Hawking Kaku, Jr., Amen.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 04:05PM

Well, after all, he was just citing and quoting from Scientific American. So, perhaps he deserves a little slack this time.

Anyway, to push this farther, here is a quote from the cited article:

"The burden of proof lies, therefore, with those who cling to the notion that there are such things as “races.” They would have to first provide a scientific definition, based on significant differences in human genomes, of what “race” means; and second, clearly demonstrate that there are enough of these differences between different ethnic groups to justify dividing people into separate “races.” This is an impossible task."

COMMENT: There is so much wrong with this it is embarrassing. In the first place, concepts are not dictated by science in any language or culture. Secondly, concepts are often poorly defined and ambiguous, but nonetheless remain quite useful. Thirdly, if it is helpful in addressing bigotry and prejudice to define human differences in terms of "race," --even if assignment into such categories is illusive and difficult--why not do it? "Race" is not a four-letter word! (Opps!)

By the way, is all this just a language 'game.' I don't know, does science have a definition of 'game' we can apply? Can the concept of 'game' be neatly categorized? If not, well, we better get rid of it!

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Posted by: Visitors Welcome ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 05:30PM

Biologically speaking, there is only one human race.

There used to be more, mind you, but all except homo sapiens have died out. So every human being today is a homo sapiens, and the homo sapiens has become synonymous with the human race.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 12:37PM

Visitors Welcome Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Biologically speaking, there is only one human
> race.
>
> There used to be more, mind you, but all except
> homo sapiens have died out. So every human being
> today is a homo sapiens, and the homo sapiens has
> become synonymous with the human race.

Except they didn’t die out.
A few ancient species of humans interbred with Homo Sapiens Sapiens and got consolidated into a hybridized subspecies of humans, us.
Neanderthals DNA lives on in Eurasians (2% average Neanderthal DNA) and Denisovan DNA lives on in Asians, Melanesians and Australian Aborigines (3% average Denisovan DNA). Africans are the only ‘pure’ race of Homo Sapiens Sapiens, but they are also a hybrid subspecies of humans, combining Homo Sapiens Idaltu (the First Wise Man) with another species, likely something like Homo Heidelbergensis or one of the other 15 different sub species of humans who coexisted with Idaltu in Africa.
So in that sense, there is a biological basis for racial differences the scientists overlook in the interest of sounding ‘woke AF!’. You can send in a sample of your DNA to 23andme and it will tell you exactly how much Neanderthal DNA you have if you are Eurasian. Mine said I was 2.8% Neanderthal (Average is 2.9%) If you are pure African, you won’t have any, predictably.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 04:38PM

I am just pointing out what’s at stake in Supreme Court case coming before it in the case Asian students v Harvard
It seems to me like the statement , “We are 99.9% genetically identical” on the Human Genome Project website for 20yrs, needs to be updated since we mapped the Neanderthal genome and the Denisovan, chimpanzee and bonobos and other apes and compared the genomes.
It seems like you are saying from a social standpoint there is definitely ‘race’ but that has nothing to do with anything scientific?

Brill Nye the “Science Guy” tweeted, Did you know that: as far as science is concerned, there's no such thing as "race"? Send me your questions about the science of skin color to askbillnye.com

Really?
How does that math work when
Eurasians are 2% Neanderthal DNA
Asians, Melanesians American Indian, and Australians are all descended from many different, more ancient humans homos. 3% Denisovan DNA, Dragon Men, Hobbits, all of whom were close cousins,
We are all hybrids with all of these diverse sets of genetic information passed down to us through many generations before us,
That’s our strength, is our genetic diversity.

As it is in every species.

Seems like the math might work better if we also factored in that we are 98.8% genetically identical to both chimps and bonobos.
So all of the genetic diversity between us exists in that 1.2% of our DNA that distinguishes us from Chimps and Bonobos.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 05:19PM

"I am just pointing out what’s at stake in Supreme Court case coming before it in the case Asian students v Harvard."

COMMENT: What is at stake is the legitimacy of distinctions based upon "race" as socially defined. It is not a dispute about how "race" is scientifically defined, or non-defined.
__________________________________________________

"It seems like you are saying from a social standpoint there is definitely ‘race’ but that has nothing to do with anything scientific?"

COMMENT: No! What I am saying is that the concept of "race" is meaningful within a social context, notwithstanding the fact that it is *not* meaningful in genetics. It is fine to point out that 'race' has no genetic application, so long as you don't then dismiss the concept of race in the social setting as meaningless, and then argue against its legitimate use.
________________________________________

Brill Nye the “Science Guy” tweeted, Did you know that: as far as science is concerned, there's no such thing as "race"? Send me your questions about the science of skin color to askbillnye.com"

COMMENT: Well, in the social sciences, there certainly *is* such a *thing* as race, racism, and racial prejudice. Moreover, the context of the present dispute (OP) is social, not biological. As such, race is a legitimate term to describe social problems and address solutions.

And by the way, Bill Nye is not an authority on science, by any stretch of the imagination! He is arguably a scientific con man.
__________________________________________

Finally, genetic diversity is perhaps a good argument against racist attitudes. But remember racial categories as assigned by culture (for example, "Black Lives Matter' or 'White Supremacy') are based upon real physical human characteristics, and a cultural history that is related to such characteristics. For this reason, the very real phenomena of "racism" can be defined and meaningfully addressed. Genetics has nothing to do with this.

Think about what would happen if the S.C. rules that there is no such thing as race, and therefore no racial distinctions can be made by Harvard or society in general. Who wins? The answer is the racists, because the very objections that are made to their attitudes and conduct have been rendered meaningless and illegitimate.

That is why this post, and the cited article are so dangerously misplaced.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 05:09PM

You do realize all of this is very new and research is ongoing over the years as new evidence is proven by new science, right?
Yeah, I like to make sure my world view aligns with people I respect and admire. As I learn more I change my opinions on matters. Lately I’ve been reading “The Content of Our Character’ by Shelby Steel, which John McWhorter references in his book, Woke Racism. McWhorter has not very good things to say about MORmONism, in reference to the American way of magical thinking.

I love Their practical approach, what works?
Do that and less bad stuff and we are good!

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 05:19PM

You do realize that this is not something that appeared in the last two years, right?

If you read the threads linked, you will find that you were about the only one arguing that race was genetically determined.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 05:21PM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You do realize all of this is very new . . .

Your second article was written 15 years ago and last updated 10 years ago. There is nothing "new" about it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2022 05:29PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 05:40PM

I happen to agree with much of what Whorter says about the excesses of the current anti-racist "religion." There is much woke nonsense going on here.

But, that said, racism--the real, historical, social, and attitudinal type--is nonetheless alive and well. How society and culture might "religionize" the anti-racism movement, and thereby over-react to racism, is one thing. However, the answer to such wokiness is not denying racism exists; or worse, denying that 'racism' is a legitimate concept. The answer is to return the discussion to some appropriate rational perspective.

As usual, your very worthwhile thread is veering off into personal attacks by the usual suspects. Very unfortunate.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 05:53PM

> As usual, your very worthwhile thread is veering
> off into personal attacks by the usual suspects.
> Very unfortunate.

Just the other day El Gato called me a "dumb bitch." Apparently that evaded your keen powers of observation.

Very unfortunate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2022 05:59PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 06:47PM

Yes. I did see that, and I found it over-the-top and offensive, to say the least; and would have deleted it if I had such powers. Moreover, I don't blame you for responding aggressively to that kind of attack.

I just think RfM is a better place the more it is substantive, and not negatively personal--especially when such animosity carries over from one thread to the next. In this case, SC posted on an interesting and timely topic, with a citation to a major, well-known, and legitimate source. He did not attack anyone.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 10:58PM

I get to defend myself against your continual ad hominem attacks, in EVERY GD thread I start.
Ever notice I never comment your posts you originate and you always attack me personally in every GD thread I start?

Is this your only occupation?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2022 11:00PM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: 4X6W9 ( )
Date: January 18, 2022 01:00AM

schrodingerscat,

I have noticed the same thing with the attacks. Also have noticed a few times where where it appears searches were done on other peoples posts to accomplish these attacks. Not that there is anything wrong with that, just a lot of time and effort put into it.

Also have noticed (doing the search thing) that there are a LOT of posts here from this person, maybe it just appears they are attacking others.

Don't know if it's the case, but personally it is my opinion that I think it is rather unhealthy to spend too much time at any site.

Run on sentences are also unhealthy. :)

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 18, 2022 01:18AM

Name & Keyword searches are things of a moment, but as the years go by, the number count piles up.

Okay, and the fact that he's changed names adds a bit of time, but there are occasions when taking a little more time seems to be worth it.

And it's not like any of us are on-call to save the world!

Heck, I've spent most of 2021 on my couch, in a bathrobe, typing my little heart out!  And I did it for you, man!  I did it for you...

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 05:19PM

Thank you for taking one for the team, [|].

The bottom line can be found in your second link, wherein El Gato tells us: "my ADULT son didn't check the African American Box for personal gain. The personal gain came as an unintended consequence of checking a box because he believes we all came from Africa, which is true."

Kori's son may not initially have been motivated by a desire to steal from the university, but "he opened [the envelope] up and it had a $5,000 check made out to him. He . . . thought, man I had my eye on a really nice $5k video camera for awhile. So he bought it and put himmself through college as a wedding videographer with it."

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2231657,2231909#msg-2231909

The desire to rationalize that theft, and Kori's resentment that an African American woman once got a job he wanted despite her inability to lift as much weight as he, explains his new-found opposition to affirmative action.

"It's remarkable how often one's moral principles align with his material interests."

--Jesus Lopez, Local Magistrate, Free and Sovereign State of Chihuahua, Mexico



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2022 05:31PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 05:52PM

What does African American even mean? I know people from Africa who’s families have lived there for generations and they are white. I can chase my ancestry back to North Africa.

Is skin pigment a race? One of my best friends who is a black guy from Alabama married a white lady and their son has dread locks and could go to Jamaica and blend in but he doesn’t have the accent.

So yeah the Scientific American article makes a point. We all are Heinz 57’s. But skin color or any other kind of difference is a handy thing for those with a political axe to grind to divide people so they can’t work together to oppose the political policies of those who foment the dividing. Are people really calling someone a racist because that’s an original thought or are they following a social trend that popular in their circle of peers?

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: January 18, 2022 01:31AM

You've probably seen a scene like this:

A grandmother and her granddaughter are in a store, and Grandma asks the granddaughter "to tell the coloured sales girl" to come help her. The granddaughter cringes and tells her, "Grandma, we don't use that word any more. That's a bad word" and the grandmother doesn't understand what's wrong.

The words "black" and "white" didn't get their racial meanings as we know today until around the year 1700. Before that, people said "Christian" to refer to white Europeans, and religious terms such as "Mohammedan" for Africans (even though there had been African Christians from the beginning) and Arabs, "Hindus" for Indians, and so on.

English colonials adapted the Portuguese word "Negro" from the Latin "Niger" for black and corrupted this to "Nigra" then the infamous N-word. No one ever asked the enslaved what they wanted to be called, much less what ethnic group they belonged to in West Africa.

"African American" is a generic ethnic term that does not have a basis in skin colour and all the negativity that goes with the previous words -- just like other ethnic groups in America such as Polish, Italian, or Greek Americans. Most like it, some don't -- like the current controversy over "Latinx" vs. Latino / Latina.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: January 17, 2022 07:33PM

Fixed it for ya.

Discrimination has existed in some form or another in just about all human societies throughout history.

In the ancient world, class was the barrier in society, not "race." The Romans didn't care about what you looked like, where you came from, or your ethnic background — if you became "Roman." What mattered was your social class. There's a famous story about two Roman military commanders in Gaul who were defeated during a war with the Germans because one of them refused to take orders from the other because he was a "novus homo" — the first of his family to be elected to the consulship — and thus regarded as socially inferior even though he was the senior commander.

In America, class discrimination was replaced with a racial caste system. It persists because there are people who psychologically need it to exist, and political and religious leaders who want power allow it to continue to exist.


https://www.nprillinois.org/2021-08-18/name-discrimination-study-finds-lakisha-and-jamal-still-less-likely-to-get-hired-than-emily-and-greg


Two decades ago, a Black woman named Kalisha White applied for a team leader position at Target and worried that her application had been ignored because of her race.

So she sent it back in with a different name and slightly fewer qualifications. That application got her an interview. Eventually, she won a class-action lawsuit against the massive retailer.

Two decades later, a new study shows that not much has changed.

Economists from the University of California Berkeley and the University of Chicago sent 83,000 job applications to 108 Fortune 500 employers with job openings — half with traditionally white-sounding names, the other half with distinctively Black-sounding names.

Applicants with Black names were called back 10% fewer times across the board — and even less when it came to specific companies — despite having comparable applications to their white counterparts.

Berkeley economist Patrick Kline, one of the study’s authors, says the applications looked realistic. Researchers crafted resumes and automated the process of filling out employment history and personality tests.

“To our knowledge, we actually have the highest response rate that’s ever been garnered from one of these studies,” he says.

Some of the common white names used were Emily or Greg, he says, and distinctively Black names used include Jamal or Lakisha. The study’s authors used these names as a way of trying to understand discrimination in the employment application process.

The study’s authors have not yet followed up with the companies. Kline says he assumes these companies would have a difficult time answering why they favored one applicant over another.

The companies were chosen based on their national employment footprint, Kline says.

Ultimately, some human somewhere makes the final call on hiring, he explains, but many major companies’ hiring decisions are spread across the U.S. and utilize screening algorithms and third party technology.

Discrimination was more prevalent at decentralized companies where the hiring process is spread out, he says, as opposed to a company in one location with specialized human resource employees.

“What we think is going on here is that some places have different hiring practices than others. In some places, it’s not very internally regulated by HR practices,” he explains. “So whoever’s maybe working a shift at that restaurant that day can sift through the applications and just decide who they want to call in for an interview next week. At other places, there’s more hoops that you have to jump through before you can decide to call someone back.”

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Posted by: Maca ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 09:31AM

I'm curious what these beurocratic intellectuals seek to accomplish by saying the concept of race is a lie. If they are right then there's no reason for black lives matter protests, cause we're all we same, then there's not certain groups who score better on college entrance tests, there aren't certain groups over dominating the NBA, then as a junior high kid I shouldn't have been called the little white boy by classmates who were abnormally curious and couldn't keep their hands off me.

The silliness of intellectuals. What can I say

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 10:18AM

Here's a picture of a couple of cats.
https://media-be.chewy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/29140851/orange-calico-cats-main.jpg

One cat is a calico cat and the other is an orange tabby cat.

You notice the cats are different, but to you, they are just both cats.

Now here’s another picture of a couple of dogs:
https://petkeen.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Doodleman-Pinscher-Doberman-Pinscher-x-Standard-Poodle.jpg

One dog is a Doberman and the other dog is a poodle.

You know that they are both dogs, but your perception of them is different.

You've been conditioned to think that the Doberman is a much more aggressive dog than the poodle because that's what you've been told.

Here's another picture of a Doberman — but without cut ears:
https://www.mercurynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Doberman-pinscher.jpg

Now our mean, evil dog suddenly becomes man's best friend. Same dog, different perception.

Racism is a learned behavior. I had a college friend who was the daughter of white American missionaries in a remote villiage in an African country. She grew up speaking the native language and didn't come into contact with other white people besides her parents until she went away for high school. She didn't understand North American style skin color racism because it wasn't taught to her.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2022 10:21AM by anybody.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 12:55PM

I'm curious what these beurocratic intellectuals seek to accomplish by saying the concept of race is a lie.

COMMENT: They think that if they delegitimize "race" as a concept, they will undermine racism. In other words, if there is no such thing as race, there is no grounds for racist behavior. That is all well and good, except that racist behavior continues to exist. As such, "race" and "racism" are useful social concepts in addressing such behavior. In that context they have genuine meaning notwithstanding the fact that 'race' is not a natural kind in scientific terms.
__________________________________________________

"If they are right then there's no reason for black lives matter protests, cause we're all we same, then there's not certain groups who score better on college entrance tests, there aren't certain groups over dominating the NBA, then as a junior high kid I shouldn't have been called the little white boy by classmates who were abnormally curious and couldn't keep their hands off me."

COMMENT: Not true. The fact that race is not a natural kind for scientific purposes does *not* mean that 'racism' does not exist within a social context as defined by that context. There are still 'social' categories that can be defined as 'racial' and behavior that can be defined as 'racist.' The error in the OP was to assume that if some concept is not a natural kind for scientific purposes, it must be meaningless (a lie) in a social context as well. That is simply false.

Note further that often this error goes the other way. What you sometimes find are social scientists engaging in some "study' of race (say, in America) and conclude that since racism is rampant within society, racism *must* to some extent be a natural kind, a hard-wired trait in the human brain, or a genetic propensity. This is sometimes stated or implied in extreme forms of CRT. But given what we learn from genetics, this also is not true. There is no gene for racism. Rather it is a learned attitude and behavior.
__________________________________

The silliness of intellectuals. What can I say.

COMMENT: Well, not much. If there's anything *sillier* than intellectuals per se, it is the 'pseudo-intellectuals' who make sweeping judgments that intellectuals are "silly" simply because what they say does not fit into their preferred religious worldview, and without understanding or caring whether they are actually right or wrong. That way, even when such intellectuals are most clearly right (as for example with respect to vaccines and climate change) they can be conveniently ignored or dismissed as "silly."

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 02:54PM

Maca Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm curious what these beurocratic intellectuals
> seek to accomplish by saying the concept of race
> is a lie.

I think they’re wrong.
Race isn’t a lie, it’s very real, based upon the fact that there are genetic tests available that prove genetic differences between races or continent of origin, like the significant contribution of Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA to non-African populations. Ignoring that significant contribution is lying by omission.

> If they are right then there's no reason
> for black lives matter protests, cause we're all
> we same,

But we’re not, obviously.

> then there's not certain groups who score
> better on college entrance tests,

It’s not just the SAT, it’s every standardized test.
The results are predictably the same in every case.

> there aren't
> certain groups over dominating the NBA, then as a
> junior high kid I shouldn't have been called the
> little white boy by classmates who were abnormally
> curious and couldn't keep their hands off me.
>
> The silliness of intellectuals. What can I say

There’s an incredible amount of pressure being applied to academics these days.

See Jordan Peterson’s resignation letter from University of Toronto. Any grad student researcher he takes under his wing has a zero percent chance of finding gainful employment, due to the fact Peterson refuses to go along with the DIE flow.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/jordan-peterson-why-i-am-no-longer-a-tenured-professor-at-the-university-of-toronto

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 10:01AM

There is the human race
There are genetic variances that control skin pigmentation,sex,bone structure and a variety of other things.
pre judging a human being based on genetic variances is useless and poorly thought out!

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Posted by: Outlier ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 10:31AM

Race and racism these days is built partly on visible cues.

The more pertinent issue of culture clash is tribal in nature. Various tribes develop a culture/society within a tribe and when one tribe rubs up against another tribe, different mores and cultural habits sometimes creates animosity and mistrust.

Color is of little consequence…it is the friction between cultures that creates the problems.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 04:46PM

I don’t think anyone has pointed out that the link SC posted is not to an article in Scientific American, it is to a blog. It is not peer reviewed science, it is somebody, presumably a scientist, bloviating.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 05:28PM

I don't normally click on The Cat's click-bait but in order to confirm your observation (one must not completely trust the White Man...), I did so.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading the paragraphs thumping The Orange Man, and the quotation from Einstein propping up the author's contentions was delicious; The Cat was no doubt thrilled with that!

But my personal opinion, that "All humans are the same, with some major or minor variations, except when they're different" remains the foundation of the tiki hut of my existence.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 05:50PM

Which begs the question: are you pro tiki, con tiki, or riki tiki tavi?

Also, now you forced me into looking at the actual content of the link. It was closer to being an actual SciAm article than it was to pure bloviating, so I fear I sold it a little short.

I figure what caught Cat's Eye was the word "lie", which is inflammatory and hyperbolic. A lie is a statement that is known to be untrue by the speaker and deliberately told to mislead, usually for some sort of personal gain. If the speaker actually believes the statement, it is not a lie. It is just wrong.

But who would click on the statement "the concept of race is misleading"? That violates the First Law of Clickbaitery.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 06:09PM

It is in Scientific American, but it is just an observation, one I disagree with actually as I pointed out above, race is genetically testable and predictable. Send in you saliva sample to 23andme and if you are Eurasians results will show your DNA is on average, 2% Neanderthal. Asians/Melanesians/Aborigines are an additional 3% Denisovan. Africans are the only race that is 100% Homo Sapiens Sapiens, the rest of us are hybrids.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 06:28PM

This is such nonsense.

For your theory to be true, DNA would have to line up with "race." If Denisovan DNA were definitive for the Asian "race," all Asians would have it--and they don't. Moreover it would be relatively constant across all Asian groups, but it is not. If Neanderthal DNA defined some European "race," you'd see the highest proportions of that DNA in Europeans, but that's wrong too. And we know that supra-Saharan Africans have Neanderthal DNA as well, so they must by your logic be Europeans.

Your assertion that "Africans are the only race that is 100% Homo Sapiens Sapiens" is also absurd both because there is more genetic diversity within Africa than between Africa and the rest of the world (cue Idaltu mantra), so there must be several "races" in Africa rather than just one--what are those races, Cat?--and because Africans are also hybrids (cue 15 different ancestors boilerplate) of different ancestral groups, some of which differ from HSS more than Neanderthals do. Can you name the different races in Africa that your claims require?

Cue: "LW just launched another ad hominem attack against me because she challenged my arguments."

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 06:37PM

It is absolutely ad Ad Halloween attack when you rip his mask off like that!!!

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 06:36PM

https://blog.23andme.com/ancestry-reports/new-neanderthal-report/

“Research suggests that 1-2 percent of the genomes of all modern humans with European, Asian, or Native American ancestry are of Neanderthal origin. (A recent study suggests that people of African ancestry also have a very small amount of Neanderthal DNA, a surprising finding that suggests modern humans migrated out of Africa much earlier than we thought, intermixed with Neanderthals, and then some migrated back to the continent.) Scientists at 23andMe further noticed that several Neanderthal DNA variants are associated with traits in 23andMe customers. To do this, scientists combined and analyzed data from 23andMe’s database of genotyped customers who have consented to participate in research through web-based surveys. The team was then able to identify associations between Neanderthal DNA variants and human traits like the likelihood of sneezing after eating dark chocolate, sense of direction, mosquito bite frequency, body type, dandruff, or being naturally strong, among others.”

https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/dtcgenetictesting/neanderthaldna/

Several direct-to-consumer genetic testing companies report how much DNA a person has inherited from prehistoric humans, such as Neanderthals and Denisovans. This information is generally reported as a percentage that suggests how much DNA an individual has inherited from these ancestors. The percentage of Neanderthal DNA in modern humans is zero or close to zero in people from African populations, and is about 1 to 2 percent in people of European or Asian background. The percentage of Denisovan DNA is highest in the Melanesian population (4 to 6 percent), lower in other Southeast Asian and Pacific Islander populations, and very low or undetectable elsewhere in the world.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 06:39PM

  

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 06:45PM

Exactly. If he wanted to get this stuff right, he'd need to read actual science.

Note how neither of his sources mentions "race." That's not accidental. The authors are intelligent enough to avoid the notion that N&D DNA lines up with erroneous popular delineations like "race."

El Gato doesn't know this, but the highest concentrations of Neanderthal DNA are in New Guinea and Polynesian. By his logic those people must be Super-Europeans.

How long before we are treated to another of these "race is a lie" threads? Which do you think will come first: "race is a lie" or "we are all alike?"

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 06:56PM

  

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 07:12PM

Both articles assume readers know people from Africa are “black”, people from Asia are “Asian” and people from Europe are “white”, generally speaking.
And yes I know Melanesians have higher Neanderthal DNA, in addition to Denisovan, which doesn’t mean they are European. It just means Neanderthals got around.
None of which contradicts anything I said above.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 07:21PM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Both articles assume readers know people from
> Africa are “black”, people from Asia are
> “Asian” and people from Europe are
> “white”, generally speaking.

First, color does not equate to race. Second, you qualify everything you say with the phrase "generally speaking." If race is a meaningful concept, you don't have to fuzz up the boundaries.


---------------------
> And yes I know Melanesians have higher Neanderthal
> DNA, in addition to Denisovan, which doesn’t
> mean they are European. It just means Neanderthals
> got around.

It means nothing of the kind. No Neanderthal ever went to Southeast Asia or the Americas, and yet both have Neanderthal DNA.


--------------------
> None of which contradicts anything I said above.

You are right. Your gloss of the advertisement and the article do not contradict what you insist on continuing to say. But that is just your gloss.

The second article is very careful not to endorse the idea of race." You may claim the authors are being "'woke' AF," but the truth is they are scientists and know not to say something so manifestly stupid.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 08:52PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> schrodingerscat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Both articles assume readers know people from
> > Africa are “black”, people from Asia are
> > “Asian” and people from Europe are
> > “white”, generally speaking.
>
> First, color does not equate to race.

You are aware the Census identifies us by our color, right?
I agree with the US Government’s definition of race, except they lump all North Africans, Middle Easterners and Hispanics into one big with “whites” group, which seems overly broad to me, but I’m not in charge of the census.

Second, you
> qualify everything you say with the phrase
> "generally speaking."

Yes, because I have to put that in there for people who say stupid things, like, “What about South Africa, lots of white people there!” Uh, yeah, from Europe who didn’t mix much with the locals.


> If race is a meaningful
> concept, you don't have to fuzz up the
> boundaries.
>
The story told by our genetics makes the fossil record much more clear, they add up to a much more clear picture of our ancient tree of life, which is beautiful, diverse.
My argument is the same as the conclusion of the ‘First Man” series on PBS now, “We are all hybrids. Our strength is our genetic diversity”

and all of that rainbow of people, in that 0.1% that makes us different, is our strength.
Without that we wouldn’t survive the first virus that killed one of us.
Thank goodness we mated with Neanderthals and 3 different types of Denisovans, in Europe and Asia and Clovis in America and whatever humans lived in Oz when we got there 70,000 years before the Garden of Eden, or we wouldn’t have gained that genetic diversity we did by mating with another species of human that pre dated us by hundreds of thousands of yrs in Europe.

> ---------------------
> > And yes I know Melanesians have higher
> Neanderthal
> > DNA, in addition to Denisovan, which doesn’t
> > mean they are European. It just means
> Neanderthals
> > got around.
>
> It means nothing of the kind. No Neanderthal ever
> went to Southeast Asia or the Americas, and yet
> both have Neanderthal DNA.
>
>
> --------------------
> > None of which contradicts anything I said
> above.
>
> You are right. Your gloss of the advertisement
> and the article do not contradict what you insist
> on continuing to say. But that is just your
> gloss.
>
> The second article is very careful not to endorse
> the idea of race." You may claim the authors are
> being "'woke' AF," but the truth is they are
> scientists and know not to say something so
> manifestly stupid.

You just can’t help calling me stupid when I’m the one who agrees 100% the story told by our DNA and you are rejecting it.

I get that many scientists like Bill Nye are doing the fashionable thing by pronouncing race a meaningless concept scientifically, but that’s patently false. There are obvious genetic differences between different groups of people from different continents.
Just like dogs and cats from different continents adapted to those environments over time.


. But it sure that ensures donor money continues flowing in their direction,

I love irony, but this!

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 09:21PM

Race sure as hell real to the US Crnsus or they wouldn’t force you to answer what race you were.

I used to think it was racist, and would tell them that. Instead of answering White, Black, Asian or Pacific Islander or Native?

What if you are Māori or Aboriginal? (Which I think of a lot having served a mission there.)

What about mixed race people?

I’d check ‘other’ and write in, ‘not a racist’

Which would prompt a call from the Feds telling me, no you have to answer the question, what race are you?
I’d say,”How would I know? Is there a test?
They’d say,”Sir, I’m just doing my job here and I need you to answer are you white?”

Nope, I’m more of a tan. Is that a race? Tan?

No Sir. Tan is not a race. You HAVE to choose, White, Black, Asian, Pacific Islander or Indian, which is it?

Not a racist.

Ok, your name is (European) I’m just gonna mark down white!

Ok so why’d you bother calling?

Doin m job Sir!

Thanks!
….

But now, turns out there are tests to tell you exactly what your DNA story is and what continent you came from and who you are related to, which is a mixed blessing.

I’ve heard stories from friends about discovering ancestry you kinda wished you hadn’t.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 11:11PM

Okay, you think the Census Bureau is the arbiter of science. That's all we need to know.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 11:10PM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are aware the Census identifies us by our
> color, right?

Is it your view that the US Census Bureau knows more about genetics than geneticists?


--------------
> I agree with the US Government’s definition of
> race, except they lump all North Africans, Middle
> Easterners and Hispanics into one big with
> “whites” group, which seems overly broad to
> me, but I’m not in charge of the census.

So the Census Bureau is right but it is wrong?

Of course you miss the biggest problem. The Sans people of southern Africa are more distant from the inhabitants of Tanzania than than either are from Caucasians and Asians. So why aren't there multiple "races" in Africa?


--------------
> Yes, because I have to [qualify things] for
> people who say stupid things, like, “What about
> South Africa, lots of white people there!” Uh,
> yeah, from Europe who didn’t mix much with the
> locals.

I imagine a lot of people qualify things to help you understand, too.


--------------
> My argument is the same as the conclusion of the
> ‘First Man” series on PBS now, “We are all
> hybrids. Our strength is our genetic diversity”

No, you are not offering the same conclusion. "Hybridization," as used by geneticists, implies a spectrum with no clear boundaries between different groups. The word "hybrids" is used in contradistinction to the term "race" and not as a synonym for it.


---------------
> and all of that rainbow of people, in that 0.1%
> that makes us different, is our strength.
> Without that we wouldn’t survive the first virus
> that killed one of us.
> Thank goodness we mated with Neanderthals and 3
> different types of Denisovans, in Europe and Asia
> and Clovis in America and whatever humans lived in
> Oz when we got there 70,000 years before the
> Garden of Eden, or we wouldn’t have gained that
> genetic diversity we did by mating with another
> species of human that pre dated us by hundreds of
> thousands of yrs in Europe.

That is a complete non-sequitur. It does not bolster your argument.


-------------------
> You just can’t help calling me stupid when I’m
> the one who agrees 100% the story told by our DNA
> and you are rejecting it.

I didn't call you "stupid." Just above you called someone else stupid.


-----------------
> I get that many scientists like Bill Nye are doing
> the fashionable thing by pronouncing race a
> meaningless concept scientifically, but that’s
> patently false. There are obvious genetic
> differences between different groups of people
> from different continents.

You would have us believe that you, who until recently couldn't reconcile the statistical differences between humans and chimpanzees with that between Europeans with 2% Neanderthal DNA and Africans with zero Neanderthal DNA, know more about these matters than scientists?


---------------
> Just like dogs and cats from different continents
> adapted to those environments over time.

Yes, yes. You have said several times before that humans are like dog "breeds" and Asians and Jews are the smartest "breeds." That's the inevitable implication of your assertion above that there are consistent morphological differences between "races." And what do you call a person who believes there are consistent morphological differences between races?


-------------------
> But it sure that ensures donor money continues
> flowing in their direction,

Alternatively, geneticists get more money than you do because their work produces demonstrably credible results.


----------------
> I love irony

Then life must be heaven on earth for you.

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Posted by: unknown ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 01:18AM

Time for me to step into the doggie do before taking a long leave from the RfM.

"Representatives…shall be apportioned among several states…according to their respective numbers…the actual enumeration shall be made within three years and the first meeting of the Congress of the United States of America, and within every subsequent term of ten years in such manner as they shall by law direct."

It is clear that RACE has nothing to do with the census, "such matter" may have made it such but marking down race in my opinion clearly has nothing to do with the constitutions intention of apportioning the representatives.

Thus when they have asked I have REFUSED to fill out the Race part, only filling out the total number of people and ages at my house. In theory it might benefit me if I had since my house is "multi racial", but I an a constitutionalist and believe many of the Census questions are none of their doggone business.

over and out

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 02:48AM

Hopefully you'll check back in sometimes.

I disagree with your views on the constitution, which was a fundamentally racist document. The right to vote was based on racial identity insofar as slaves were uniformly denied the franchise; in fact, the constitution only counted a black person as 3/5 of white person.

The distinction now is that science has proved the biological basis for race invalid. Race still exists as a sociological and political concept, to be sure, but there is no longer a genetic basis for it. We are fortunate that the United States has overturned at least the most blatantly racist elements of its constitutional history.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 03:19AM

Women voting. . .

They had that right!




/s

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 03:28AM

Oh!

EOD is anxious enough about that joke to feel compelled to add the "/s"!

Feeling a bit timorous tonight?

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Posted by: unknown. ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 03:25AM

Thanks, will check in much later.

I agree, the 3/5 in the constitution was racist. My understanding was that it was to bring enough of the states together. Enough of the states agreed later to amend with the 15th amendment.

I agree with your statement that Race still exists as a sociological and political concept. I feel it's more of a cultural issue. For the most part I don't like most Rap, and I'm pretty sure most Rap stars don't like mayo. :)

If I could be bold enough to say we are ALL racist to some degree, it's how we act on it that partially defines who we are. Gonna step on some toes with that statement.

Peace

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 03:36AM

The 3/5 compromise was necessary to get the southern states to sign on to the constitution. Even if it had not been, I don't think the south would have extended the franchise to black people--I'm not sure the north did either, and women were barred for well over another century too.

I disagree that the 15th amendment had the support of the requisite 2/3 of vote of both houses or that of 2/3 of the states--at least not the voluntary vote. You'll recall that it was one of the three amendments shoved down the South's throat right after the Civil War, when a lot of southern leaders were in jail or prevented from holding political office.

Agreed that everyone is in some ways and some degrees racist. That's all the more reason for us to work sedulously to identify and uproot racist institutions.

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Posted by: Jumpin Javelina ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 03:28AM

Science is dead.

JJ

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Posted by: S. Richard Bellrock ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 02:25PM

I haven't read through the thread, nor read the article, so if I'm off the mark, so be it.
Race is meaningless in a biological or genetic sense, but that doesn't diminish from it's various aspects of social reality--racism is obviously alive and well, race can be a meaningful part of one's personal identity.

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