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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: April 15, 2022 02:38PM

https://tass.com/society/1123855

Christian relic, a True Cross piece, to be kept at Russia’s Black Sea fleet flagship

The relic is a wood chip only several millimeters long embedded into a 19th century metal cross


A Christian relic, a piece of the True Cross on which the believers say Jesus Christ was crucified would be kept at the Moskva missile cruiser, the Black Sea fleet flagship, archpriest of the Russian Orthodox Church’s Sevastopol District Sergiy Khalyuta told TASS.

He explained that the relic is a wood chip only several millimeters long. It is embedded into a 19th century metal cross, which, in turn, is stored in a special reliquary.


"This relic used to belong to a Catholic church, but was acquired by anonymous patrons of arts, and it was their will to send the relic to the [Black Sea] fleet. The Moskva cruiser has an onboard chapel, where services take place," Khalyuta said.

He underscored that such relics are very rare and important for all Christians — both the Catholics and the Orthodox. Russia is in possession of several items with pieces of the True Cross embedded into them; usually, they can be found in large temples. Purchasing such relics has become possible after European churches began to close and sell their property.

The archpriest also disclosed that the relic had already been handed over to Vice Admiral Igor Osipov, the commander of the Black Sea fleet, and is currently at the fleet headquarters. It will be delivered to the Moskva cruiser shortly.

The Moskva cruiser is the lead ship of the Project 1164 Atlant class. It entered service in 1983. Its main armament is 16 P-1000 Vulkan missile launchers.




The last major warship sunk in combat since WW2 was the ARA "Belgrano" (ex - USS "Phoenix") during the Faklands War in 1982.



https://www.erienewsnow.com/story/46297823/moskva-sinking-what-really-happened-to-the-pride-of-russias-fleet

The Russian guided-missile cruiser Moskva rests deep beneath the Black Sea this morning.

Ukraine claims that it hit Moskva with missiles, causing it to sink. Russia has insisted the reason for the sinking was a fire. On Friday, the United States supported Ukraine's account, with a senior defense official saying that it believes that two Ukrainian Neptune missiles hit the Russian warship in the Black Sea.

Whether the ship lies at the bottom of the sea as the victim of Ukrainian missiles, Russian incompetence, bad luck or a combination of all three remains disputed. What is certain, though, is that the biggest wartime loss of a naval ship in 40 years will raise troubling questions not only for Moscow, but for military planners around the world.

What caused the sinking?

The ship sank off the coast of Ukraine in the Black Sea on Thursday. Ukraine says it hit the Moskva with anti-ship cruise missiles and that these sparked the fire that detonated the ammunition.

Russia has put out its own version of events: Russia's Defense Ministry says a fire of unknown origin detonated the ship's stored ammunition and the resulting explosions left the Moskva with structural damage. It says the warship then sank amid rough seas as it was being towed to a nearby port.

According to Russian state news agency TASS report, which cited an unnamed source, the crew of the ship was delivered to the port of Sevastopol in Crimea. TASS did not provide any additional details about the number of crew members rescued from the ship.

The Moskva was armed with a range of anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles as well as torpedoes, naval guns and missile defense systems, meaning it would have had massive amounts of explosives aboard.

US intelligence officials do not believe the ship was carrying nuclear weapons at the time of its sinking, two senior US officials with knowledge of the latest US intelligence assessment told CNN.

When was the last time a ship of this size was lost in war?

The Argentine cruiser General Belgrano was torpedoed and sunk by the British nuclear-powered submarine HMS Conqueror on May 2, 1982, during the Falkland Islands war.

The General Belgrano and the Moskva were of similar size -- each about 600 feet (182 meters) long and displacing 12,000 tons -- though the crew of about 1,100 aboard the General Belgrano was more than double the size of the Moskva's crew of about 500.

Russia has not disclosed the number of casualties occurred during the Moskva's fire and subsequent sinking. A total of 323 crew died when the General Belgrano went down.

What does the loss of the Moskva mean for the Russian war effort?

The biggest effect may be on Russian morale. As the flagship of Russia's Black Sea fleet, the Moskva was one of its most visible assets in the Ukraine war. Though Moscow carefully manages news about the war in Russia, it will be hard to hide the sudden absence of such a large ship.

And its loss will raise doubts about Russia's warfighting abilities, whether it was due to enemy action or accident.

"Both explanations for the sinking of the Moskva indicate possible Russian deficiencies -- either poor air defenses or incredibly lax safety procedures and damage control on the Black Sea Fleet's flagship," analysts Mason Clark, Kateryna Stepanenko, and George Barros at the Institute for the Study of War wrote in their daily war briefing.

Carl Schuster, a former US Navy captain, said the doubts went all the way to the Kremlin.

"It raises questions about naval competence 10 years after (Russian President Vladimir) Putin announced he was going to restore the navy's capabilities, morale and professionalism," Schuster said.

"It seems he has not been able to keep any of his promises for any of Russia's military services," Schuster said, noting Russia had suffered setbacks on land too.

But analysts are split on what impact the sinking will have on the Russian invasion.

The ISW analysts see it as a relatively minor blow, saying the ship was mostly used for cruise missile strikes on Ukrainian logistic centers and airfields. Russia has land-based systems and strike aircraft that can do the same thing, they said.

However, they added that if it was indeed a Ukrainian missile that led to the sinking, the Russian navy would have to rethink its operations, possibly moving ships farther from Ukrainian territory and adjusting their air defenses.

In Washington, Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said the Moskva's main mission was air defense for the Russian forces in the Black Sea.

"It will have an impact on that capability, certainly in the near term," Kirby told reporters.



The Orthodox Church Plays A Major Role In The Russian Military



https://time.com/6167332/putin-russian-orthodox-church-war-ukraine/

To Vladimir Putin, Orthodox Christianity is a tool for asserting Moscow’s rights over sovereign Ukraine. In his February televised address announcing the recent invasion of Ukraine, he argued the inhabitants of that “ancient Russian land” were Orthodox from time immemorial, and now faced persecution from an illegitimate regime in Kyiv.

Led by Patriarch Kirill, the Russian Orthodox Church is one of the most tangible cultural bonds between Russia and Ukraine. The gilded domes of Kyiv’s Monastery of the Caves and St. Sophia Cathedral have beckoned pilgrims from across both lands for nigh on a thousand years.


With religious rhetoric, Putin taps into a long tradition that imagines a Greater Russia extending across present-day Ukraine and Belarus, in a combined territory known as Holy Rus’. Nostalgic for empire, this sees the spiritual unity of the three nations as key to Russia’s earthly power as an exceptional civilization. Encouraged by Putin’s “special operation,” Russian Orthodox nationalists are excitedly recalling the prophecy of a twentieth-century saint from Chernihiv, now one of Ukraine’s beleaguered cities. “Just as the One Lord God is the indivisible Holy Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,” this monk fortold, “so Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus together are Holy Rus’ and cannot be separated.”

Putin is not the first modern Moscow ruler to co-opt this idea in seeking to consolidate secular power. During the darkest hours of World War Two, Stalin reinstated the Russian Orthodox Church—having almost bled it dry—and replaced the communist Internationale with a new national anthem. Its lyrics asserted that the Soviet Union was “unbreakable, welded together forever by Great Rus’.”

Around 2007 the Kremlin further advanced the allied concept of Russky Mir, or the Russian World, initially a soft power project aimed at promoting Russian culture worldwide and likened by Patriarch Kirill to the British Commonwealth. Putin, however—unsettled by mass protests against his authoritarian regime in 2011-12 as well as those that toppled his vassal in Ukraine in 2013-14—has since twisted both Holy Rus’ and the Russian World to serve a more violent agenda.

Outsized emphasis now goes to Russia’s tradition of warrior saints. It was by remarkable coincidence, Putin told thousands of flag-waving supporters at a recent Moscow stadium rally, that the military operation in Ukraine commenced on the birthday of Saint Theodore Ushakov, an eighteenth-century Russian naval commander famed for never losing a single battle. “He once said, ‘This threat will serve to glorify Russia,’” Putin enthused. “That was the case then, is now, and ever shall be!”

Cast aside is an alternative Christian holy tradition of defiant passive resistance, exemplified by the first saints to be canonized in medieval Rus’, the Kyiv princes Boris and Gleb, who accepted martyrdom at the hands of their brother. “They gave up without a fight,” Putin once remarked in disgust. “This cannot be an example for us.” With the attack on Kyiv’s current ruler, even small acts of Christian pacifism by Russians are quashed. A remote village priest was fined hundreds of dollars for publicly refusing to support the war and thus “call black—white, evil—good.” A young woman was detained outside Moscow’s main Orthodox cathedral for holding up a simple sign bearing the biblical commandment, “Thou shallt not kill.”



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2022 02:41PM by anybody.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: April 15, 2022 02:45PM

For a so-called world power, Ukraine is giving Russia a very hard time.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: April 15, 2022 02:50PM

and they had a little help from their friends -- something dictators and depots don't usually have :)

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: April 15, 2022 04:46PM

Yep. Looting the entire country from within didn't lead to a great outcome for Russia.

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Posted by: Cold-Dodger ( )
Date: April 15, 2022 04:36PM

Can we get an estimate of how many former Soviet citizens were outwardly atheist in accordance with dialectic materialism but silently Eastern Orthodox Christian?

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: April 15, 2022 05:34PM

>>>This relic used to belong to a Catholic church, but was acquired by anonymous patrons of arts.

Sure, Catholic relics are highly reliable (LOL). Yeah, "anonymous" people acquired it. Yeah, that's the ticket.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: April 15, 2022 05:44PM

"He underscored that such relics are very rare and important for all Christians — both the Catholics and the Orthodox."

"All Christians" would include Protestants. Protestants do not venerate relics.

Just saying.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: April 15, 2022 06:31PM

"What does the loss of the Moskva mean for the Russian war effort?"

New fish habitat with lots of places for the baby fish to hide and play with their friends. It will be just like "The Little Mermaid". Thank Russia for supporting the arts and fishies.

Now, what's Ariel going to do with that cross?

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Posted by: bobik43 ( )
Date: April 16, 2022 02:19PM

Mrs. Bobik is in daily communication with a displaced Ukrainian family (that we are trying to help). Having been suddenly, unexpectedly torn from their quiet life in Kharkiv is just unimaginably stressful for them. There is an icy hatred for those who have put them in this situation, and the sinking of the Moskva is, if nothing else, a heartening morale boost for them. It was discussed with enthusiasm, and at length, in today's conversation with Mrs. Bobik.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: April 16, 2022 02:29PM

bobik43 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mrs. Bobik is in daily communication with a
> displaced Ukrainian family (that we are trying to
> help).

You will both undoubtedly be of great comfort to them. What a tragedy that whole situation is.

My sister is also in touch with a group trying to help and I'm on board too, if there is anything I can do.

It's important for people to know that others care.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: April 15, 2022 08:10PM

As to the ship, it is a toss up. They have a choice between enemy fire or gross incompetence. I follow Eastern Orthodox Christian News and Kirill is a real shit. Too much going on with him to even post.

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: April 16, 2022 08:42AM

Susan I/S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They have a
> choice between enemy fire or gross incompetence.
===============================

Or both! Ought not have resulted in loss.
1987 USS Stark - a frigate with a third the tonnage of Москва - was hit by two anti-ship Exocets and set afire.
Crew fought the ship and she steamed to port under her own power. - And it didn't even have a relic aboard!

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Posted by: Caffiend nli ( )
Date: April 16, 2022 09:06AM

Ukrainian munitions.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: April 16, 2022 10:33AM

Why didn’t somebody grab the “relic” on the scramble outta there ? (Or maybe they did.)

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: April 16, 2022 01:15PM

Kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why didn’t somebody grab the “relic” on the
> scramble outta there ? (Or maybe they did.)
===============================
reckon they were grabbin' with both hands something more precious

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: April 16, 2022 12:41PM

The story just keeps on getting better and better.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: April 16, 2022 05:14PM

The ship was out there all by itself with no apparent escort. I wonder if it was sacrificed to justify ramping up the war. Certainly it reduces resistance to the war within Russia.

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: April 17, 2022 02:07PM

A reminder of those "in peril on the sea". The Russian ship is big by today's standards, checking in at more than 12,000 tones with a crew of more than 500.

By contrast, 81 years ago the hunt was on for the German pocket battleship Bismarck. Lined up against the Bismarck was the mighty British battlecruiser HMS Hood. Weighing in at more than 40,000 tones and with a crew of more than 1400, the Hood was faster and her armament made her a worthy foe.

The ships came into contact May 24, 1941. After a brief long range battle, the Hood was no more. Is is believed a shell from the Bismark pierced her magazine, blowing her to bits. There were three survivors.

I think we have a tendency to cheer when Russia takes a hit in this terrible war since our symnpathies lie with the Ukraine but there are few winners in war.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: April 17, 2022 02:59PM

kentish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think we have a tendency to cheer when Russia
> takes a hit in this terrible war since our
> symnpathies lie with the Ukraine but there are few
> winners in war.

Yes. This.

Soldiers must obey orders. You go where you're sent, regardless of politics.

Rogue individuals are the only ones I blame for atrocities, over and above the aggressors who engage in war in the first place and choose how to wage it.

I can't quite find the way to accurately explain what I mean. Yes, military members must obey orders and go where their units are assigned to be unless they want to be charged and severely punished for disobeying orders, obviously a major big deal. But if they are ordered to commit genocide, even if not in such direct language, and they participate in committing atrocities, do they have individual responsibility for that? I think obviously so. That's not to say the individual is not in a catch-22 at that point.

I wish soldiers in WWII, for instance, would have refused to commit genocidal acts. I heard a haunting phrase the other day, on a program of Henry Louis Gates about genealogy, from a filmmaker, I think he was, a Jewish man learning about his recent family history. He referred to "all the Jews who have never been born" due to the acts of the soldiers following illegal, immoral orders of the maniac. It gives you pause to think of the outcomes of the atrocities in that way. Inestimably sad.

I saw a comment in a recent post here querying the concept of "the laws" of war, perhaps as it sounds so counterintuitive, as if war itself is illegal and therefore rules about how to conduct it are spurious and ridiculous and immoral in and of themselves. And yet there *are* rules, guidelines, expectations of how to conduct warfare, a tragedy within one of the greatest tragedies humans perpetrate. Because creating laws sounds civilized, calm, acceptable. But laws for war so cold-blooded, disturbing.

War crimes are indeed a thing, defined as violations of international humanitarian law. Violations include attacks against schools and hospitals, which are incontrovertible.

Illegal acts in war include crimes against humanity. Another gravely serious category of crime in war is genocide.

It is difficult to conceive of soldiers, trained and constrained to obey orders, rising up against their superiors within the madness of battle and refusing any order, even at risk of losing their own life.

Hence part of the reason for the heinous acts committed throughout history amidst the fog of war.

I've never been closer to a war situation than my TV screen, whether current events or movies, although I find those excruciating. I've never managed to sit through all of The Bridge on the River Kwai, for instance. Too squeamish. Too I don't want to know. I think it's important to know history but many of the gruesome details I have to skim over.

Humans can be brutal. I have nursed a fond hope that we could evolve away from that tendency as time goes on. So far, not. :(



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2022 04:01PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: April 17, 2022 07:44PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Plagge

Karl Plagge (pronounced [kaʁl ˈplaɡə] (audio speaker iconlisten); 10 July 1897 – 19 June 1957) was a German Army officer who rescued Jews during the Holocaust in Lithuania by issuing work permits to non-essential workers. A partially disabled veteran of World War I, Plagge studied engineering and joined the Nazi Party in 1931 in hopes of helping Germany rebuild from the economic collapse following the war. After being dismissed from the position of lecturer for being unwilling to teach racism, and his opposition to Nazi racist policies, he stopped participating in party activities in 1935 and left the party when the war broke out.

During World War II, he used his position as a staff officer in the German Army to employ and protect Jews in the Vilna Ghetto. At first, Plagge employed Jews who lived inside the ghetto, but when it was due to be terminated in September 1943, he set up the HKP 562 forced labor camp, where he saved many male Jews by issuing them official work permits on the false premise that their holders' skills were vital for the German war effort, and their wives and children by claiming they would work better if their families were alive. Although unable to stop the SS from liquidating the remaining prisoners in July 1944, Plagge managed to warn the prisoners in advance, allowing about 200 to hide from the SS and survive until the Red Army's capture of Vilnius. Of 100,000 pre-war Jews in Vilnius, only 2,000 survived, of which the largest single group were saved by Plagge.

Plagge was tried before an Allied denazification court in 1947, which accepted his plea to be classified as a "fellow traveler" of the Nazi party, whose rescue activities were undertaken for humanitarian reasons rather than overt opposition to Nazism. Survivors he rescued testified on his behalf. Plagge died ten years after the trial.


https://www.jstor.org/stable/1429971



https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-german-military-and-the-holocaust



According to historian Kim Priemel, the success of Plagge's rescue efforts was due to working within the system to save Jews, a position that required him to enter a "grey zone" of moral compromise. In 2000, the story of his rescues was uncovered by the son of a survivor of HKP 562. In 2005, after two unsuccessful petitions, the Holocaust memorial Yad Vashem recognized him as one of the "Righteous Among the Nations".



And no nation has totally clean hands when it comes to war crimes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%E1%BB%B9_Lai_massacre

The Mỹ Lai massacre (/ˌmiːˈlaɪ/; Vietnamese: Thảm sát Mỹ Lai [tʰâːm ʂǎːt mǐˀ lāːj] (audio speaker iconlisten)) was the mass murder of unarmed South Vietnamese civilians by United States troops in Sơn Tịnh District, South Vietnam, on 16 March 1968 during the Vietnam War. Between 347 and 504 unarmed people were killed by U.S. Army soldiers from Company C, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment and Company B, 4th Battalion, 3rd Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade, 23rd (Americal) Infantry Division. Victims included men, women, children, and infants. Some of the women were gang-raped and their bodies mutilated, as were children as young as 12.[1][2] Twenty-six soldiers were charged with criminal offenses, but only Lieutenant William Calley Jr., a platoon leader in C Company, was convicted. Found guilty of murdering 22 villagers, he was originally given a life sentence, but served three-and-a-half years under house arrest after President Richard Nixon commuted his sentence.

This war crime, which was later called "the most shocking episode of the Vietnam War",[3] took place in two hamlets of Sơn Mỹ village in Quảng Ngãi Province.[4] These hamlets were marked on the U.S. Army topographic maps as Mỹ Lai and Mỹ Khê.[5]

The U.S. Army slang name for the hamlets and sub-hamlets in that area was Pinkville,[6] and the carnage was initially referred to as the Pinkville Massacre.[7][8] Later, when the U.S. Army started its investigation, the media changed it to the Massacre at Songmy.[9] Currently, the event is referred to as the Mỹ Lai Massacre in the United States and called the Sơn Mỹ Massacre in Vietnam.[10]

The incident prompted global outrage when it became public knowledge in November 1969. The incident contributed[11] to domestic opposition to the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War, both because of the scope of killing and cover-up attempts.

Initially, three U.S. servicemen who had tried to halt the massacre and rescue the hiding civilians were shunned, and even denounced as traitors by several U.S. Congressmen, including Mendel Rivers (D-South Carolina), Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee. Thirty years later, these servicemen were recognized and decorated, one posthumously, by the U.S. Army for shielding non-combatants from harm in a war zone.[12]

Along with the No Gun Ri massacre in South Korea 18 years earlier, Mỹ Lai was one of the largest publicized massacres of civilians by U.S. forces in the 20th century.[13]

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: April 17, 2022 10:49PM

He was not the only German officer who aided Jews. The movie The Pianist briefly introduces a German soldier who brought him supplies. He was based on a real office who also is listed Righteous Among the Nations. He was captured by the Russians and was one of the several hundred thousand that never returned to Germany.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: April 17, 2022 06:25PM

The "true cross" gambit is a variation of "if god is with us who can be against us".

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