In the last decade, I have become a vile, vulgar, and verified egoistical person compared to the young man who went on his mission. But there are reasons for that: I have been mind-screwed six ways till Sunday for realizing the church was not true. I was, from my point of view, just being honest with myself and with others, and I found out that no good deed goes unpunished. Nobody cares about me the way I can and need to if I’m to survive in this world. So I’ve chosen to be self-centered, but despite everything I don’t think I turned out the very worst I could have. I have discovered amazing things, met amazing people along the way, and learned how to talk back to people who don’t care me about despite their pretensions — while holding on to some of the qualities that I like to think always made me a better person, a thinking person in a flock of sheep.

About modern feminism… there were several times before and during BYUI that just as a bishop’s kid, I could have shacked up some broad and dominated her with the entire patriarchal support structure affirming me and blessing me for it. I did not do this. It felt wrong to me. I couldn’t be close to any Mormon woman without immediately picking up the cues of a repressed intellectual mind, even if she was brilliant. I wanted no part of that, that thing they do to female minds.

Aging into my thirties, I think Ive given an extraordinary amount of moralizing ruminant energy to all kinds of people who never cared — only as far as they could use me in their idealistic scheme to push a message on people. So I don’t care anymore either. My views are what they are. I like to talk about it. I think I’ve entered the phase where I don’t feel included and never expect to feel like it. Oh well. I know there are far worse men than I. It’s nothing to me if this whole board hates me after that last thread; I thank the board anyway for the good times we’ve had. I think there’s a lot of men in the Exmo community who are tired of having their sympathy counted as villainy on a technicality. We don’t have to give a shit. We don’t have to be here. But we are here, for whatever that’s worth. If I haven’t properly let go of my Mormon need to dominate women; I think it’s fair to say that some women haven’t let go of the expectation that men are some kind of god-sent superstars here to lift them up on their shoulders or something. I’ve watched men who have helped build this community cower in fear of being “cancelled” regardless. There is a kind of evil spirit thriving in this space that gleefully tries to scalp good men who are using their “male privilege” in the service of the cause. I’m tired of it.

Men are just people; women are just people too. I’m tired of grand narratives of battle between the sexes. Modern feminist discourse sometimes feels like the inverse equivalent of how conservative momos talk. I feel like an ally; I want feminist things to prevail — so what if I don’t do it perfectly? I’m going to trek my path regardless according to the lights I have, and if everyone hates me for that, then I guess my life will feel the same way it has always felt. I’m no stranger to pouring out my soul like water on the ground only for people to piss on it. To me, it’s just Wednesday. I will return railing for railing until some people speak to me as an individual and not as my sex or as some cog in a dehumanizing self-serving narrative. I’m not the one killing Roe. I’m not against Roe. I’m not against female equality. I think what some exmo women interpret as misogyny is often just men talking to women the way they would talk to other men in a similar context — you know, like equals or some shit.

Look, not everyone disagreed with your post. I saw what you were trying to say. We're all trying to do our best and sometimes succeeding and sometimes falling short. I'm sorry you got so dumped on. I think feelings are really raw and it feels like men just don't get it and can't get it. I know that isn't true.

I have never talked to any woman like that before, but I don’t know what else to say to the people who take it upon themselves to be the troll under the bridge.

Perhaps cis/het men like me will never understand properly the anxiety being felt right now by people with wombs, but that doesn’t mean we don’t sympathize or wouldn’t fix this if we could.

I know you're sincere.

Maybe because you see the troll under the bridge and hide behind the cement wall. Instead break the wall or jump over that wall you have built and accept the criticism as a gift instead of seeing the opposite. Old saying can’t see the forest for the trees. IMHO you will never heal unless you yourself changes and stop attacking those who try and help because you don’t like their methods.

On another thread, the poster Devoted Exmo said:

"Here, you welcome to assert any idea you like (except that the mormon church is the repository of all truth), but unless you can back your ideas up with logic, or fact, you can expect to be challenged on those ideas. ... You're welcome here so long as you can back up your assertions."

That's the nutshell version of how it is. In short, very different from the lemmings/cliff scenario aka The Church.

A quick note, CD. Admin asks that if we are going to swear we put a language warning in the subject line out of courtesy to potential readers.

On another note, I'd say you may be better served by avoiding seeing or using massive generalizations such as "everybody here". It may also be worth avoiding criticizing the RfM board or all posters.

It's all in the way we say things. Remember we're expressing ideas that others have different opinions about. It's inevitable that we'll disagree but there are limits here to how we can do that.

Part of the reason for the guideline to be courteous is found in the board name: Recovery. People are recovering from major negative life-altering experiences. That's partly why many of us respond to various issues with great passion. It's worth listening and thinking and developing our new way forward with more information, accuracy and insight than previously.

We are going to disagree. That can feel negative and lonely at times. But we can figure out how to disagree agreeably. We have to. It's in the rules. :)

Keep reading. Keep writing. Your posts have been welcome and interesting. But examine your opinions and beliefs. Think about ideas others express. Be open to change in the face of new evidence. Always think the other person may have greater experience or insight than you do.

Try not to see everyone as one giant blob. The "whole board" isn't this or that but a combination of many pieces.

PS: For example, referring to someone as "the troll under the bridge" interferes with reasonable discourse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2022 01:03PM by Nightingale.

I got, I think, at least in part, what you were going for - that at your family dinner table the autonomy perspective goes right through their ears without even a hint of resonance.

Consider, though, a couple of things: First that this place doesn't mirror your family dynamic and any "alternate" approaches are going fall flat, or even be way off the mark and present as an easy target for criticism (which is ok - criticism gives us things to "ruminate" on). Second, alternative approaches at your family dinner table probably won't work either. Their god had told them, through their dear leaders, that abortion is no way, no how, acceptable. It's a nearly perfect self-contained position that is almost impenetrable by any "worldly" influence.

Also, the issue itself is a red hot one, bound to rile emotions on both sides. That is understandable. But here at least, we can't get personal about it or we risk being deleted, which kind of defeats the purpose of posting.

It's harder, especially at a certain age, to change long-held beliefs. It can take effort to accept that sometimes we just have to agree to disagree.

It's also worth considering that maybe the other party does have unique insights or more information, knowledge or experience than we ourselves do.

And there are some questions on which it is likely better to accept that people more deeply and/or personally involved know more about it than we do and we can learn from them.

The sons of men are all born from women. This is deeply personal for everyone.

According to a Gallup poll: most people who support Roe support it only with stipulations respecting viability. It’s a minority of Americans, even women specifically, who blanket support the right for any reason at any stage. A large amount of women support Roe as a necessary evil but identify as pro-life. The views on this issue vary wildly, even among women. https://news.gallup.com/poll/245618/abortion-trends-gender.aspx

What this means is that when I encounter someone who says “my body, my choice,” and she means it in an absolute all-the-way-to-partial-birth 3rd trimester sense, I’m talking to the polar equivalent of the pro-life extremists. It’s true 2/3s of the country support keeping Roe around, but the extreme liberal position doesn’t get to speak for all 2/3rds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2022 01:51PM by Cold-Dodger.

Here we go again.

Listen, CD, if you are going to repost my link and recharacterize it, be careful. It's as dangerous as it is lazy.

What that poll shows is that 80% of women have for decades been in favor of, as I said, the availability of the procedure. Many of us pro-choice people, myself included, are anti-abortion. Most of us pro-choice people on this board and in the survey, think it should be a last resort, and I would surmise without knowing for sure (see how that's done, acknowledging the limits of one's own views?) that most of us are opposed to very late term abortions and probably other forms of the procedure.

Where you go wrong, again, is in saying women "my body, my choice" is an extreme position. That reflects your stunning inability to hear what other people are saying. The one thing that unites that the vast majority of women is the conviction that what happens in their bodies is their business and not yours, not men's, not society's.

That is the point you keep glossing over in your indignation. What this is about is individual liberty, individual power, and the offensiveness of any man telling any woman that he has a say in how she decides to live her life. You keep dismissing that fact as if you are more reasonable than women, and that disrespect is what gets you into trouble.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2022 05:16PM by Lot's Wife.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many of us pro-choice people, myself included, are
> anti-abortion. Most of us pro-choice people on
> this board and in the survey, think it should be a
> last resort, and I would surmise without knowing
> for sure (see how that's done, acknowledging the
> limits of one's own views?) that most of us are
> opposed to very late term abortions and probably
> other forms of the procedure.

Thank you for this, Lot's Wife. It makes the position very clear. It's exactly how I look at it too, as a Christian, and a nurse, who winces, at best, when abortions occur because to me it is potential life, yet there are other issues involved, that we've mentioned already, including that another woman's choice is not my business.

I have felt constrained to say I'm 'pro-choice' because of the often negative connotation of the phrase, but what I mean is pro a person having the choice when it comes to their own body and life. As you say, people are accustomed to being given freedom of choice in many other cases in life. The concept isn't that difficult.

Misconceptions still swirl around the issue, needless to say. One of them is that most women do NOT use abortion as "birth control" as naysayers frequently accuse. For one thing, it's a stressful, no-fun event, whether one chooses the surgical procedure (D&C) or the medication route. There can be physical discomfort with either procedure, the risk of significant side effects, and especially with the medication route, the effects persist for a week or two. For another thing, there can be physical repercussions in the longer term. I'm not convinced that swarms of people would willingly sign up for either intervention on a regular basis.

It's not so black and white as some people think, i.e., yes or no absolutely.

I agree with the comments by you, LW, and others, that it's worthwhile listening to what others are explaining about their position, especially females trying to help males get it. The whole it.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many of us pro-choice people, myself included, are
> anti-abortion. Most of us pro-choice people on
> this board and in the survey, think it should be a
> last resort, and I would surmise without knowing
> for sure (see how that's done, acknowledging the
> limits of one's own views?) that most of us are
> opposed to very late term abortions and probably
> other forms of the procedure.



Yes, that.


The only reason I would have an abortion would be in case of rape.

However, I know a woman who had a baby out of rape. She gave him up for adoption; yet, he comes to all of this woman's family functions and calls her "Mom."

The love of these people is astonishing.

Might I suggest incest and profound threat to the mother's health as additional grounds?

I add that my bottom line is that I cannot walk in another's shoes and hence cannot establish firm rules that must apply to everyone. I must content myself with the fact that in my ignorance I defer to others as I hope they, in their ignorance of my situation, would defer to me.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Might I suggest incest and profound threat to the
> mother's health as additional grounds?


Yes, those situations, too.

>
> I add that my bottom line is that I cannot walk in
> another's shoes and hence cannot establish firm
> rules that must apply to everyone. I must content
> myself with the fact that in my ignorance I defer
> to others as I hope they, in their ignorance of my
> situation, would defer to me.

At 21, I became pregnant with an IUD (Copper 7) in place. In my ignorance, I thought the baby could make it, but I started bleeding. My dr didn’t know if the IUD was tearing at the baby or the uterine wall. He was was afraid I’d “bleed out” and said I needed an emergency D&C. It wasn’t until this whole discussion, this very day, actually, that I realize I didn’t have a miscarriage like I always chalked it up to—-I had an abortion. I don’t even remember where my husband was. Chaos. My dr acted quickly on my behalf.

We don’t know what someone else is going through—-sometimes we don’t even know what we are going through.

Kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We don’t know what someone else is going
> through—-sometimes we don’t even know what we
> are going through.

And that is wisdom.

Thank you for listening to me, LW.

Maybe the trouble is so few people are willing to listen.

Me listen to you, Kathleen??

In a sense, I guess, yes. I had no idea what you've been through and I listened to, and empathized with, your story. But that's hardly more than any human owes any other except to the extent that being heard is uniquely meaningful to the speaker. The day I cease to listen in that way is the day I should be shot like a lame horse (though some would say my demise should be arranged more swiftly and the apposite image is more donkey than horse).

But speaking more broadly, I think you are one of the few best "listeners" on RfM. A razor-sharp mind and the capacity to consider alternative views, synthesize them judiciously, and move on without egocentric hesitation: that's a combination that bespeaks rare emotional integrity. So I should, and do, thank you for how well you hear the rest of us.

And thank you as well for lowering the barriers to share such an intimate--and important--personal episode. It is the idiosyncratic experiences of individuals as we stumble through life that compels us to recognize a zone of privacy, of autonomy, around every human being.

I'm sorry that happened to you Kathleen. You must have been so afraid. I am glad you had a good doctor that acted right away. I didn't even know they were still in use until the whole Britney Spears thing. Horrible thing to do when there are so many other, safer alternatives.

Thank you, Susan. Neither did I have any idea IUDs were still in use. Britney is a prime example of others’ wills being imposed on someone. She’s free of it all now (I believe). Her example is even more significant now in view of Supreme Court nuttiness.

She recently miscarried. I really wonder how much of that had to do with that 14 YEARS she was forced to have an IUD. That just isn't medically safe. They are notorious for causing long term and permanent infertility. I wonder how much her father paid to get a doctor to do that to her. Mind you, I am no fan but there are other options that don't cause permanent problems.

The most basic right is the right to your own body. We punish people for infringing upon it, rape, kidnapping, murder, assault, incest, child abuse. We punish by restricting the rights of their body, incarceration, execution, even probation is an infringement. As late as the 1970's a woman had to have her husband's PERMISSION to get a tubal ligation. Some doctors recommend getting a wives permission for a vasectomy but it has never been a legal requirement.

It is easy for those that have never had their rights restricted to be dismissive of those who are having their rights taken away. But it is a slippery slope. If they are willing to take the rights of some, don't think they will not come after yours.

Cold-Dodger- I believe I was respectful to you in my replies.

You were. Thank you. I tried to keep my tone towards you respectful as well.

When RBG was nominated to the SC, absolutely everyone knew exactly what her position on women's rights was. She was the lawyer that argued and won a great many of the women's rights cases.

When her nomination was voted on, I believe she was confirmed 97-2. There was basically no question that she was a capable and qualified jurist, so that's how senators voted, regardless of whether they agreed with her positions. Scalia, her polar opposite politically, was confirmed unanimously.

The good old days.

RGB didn't understand the Constitution, but you do. Dunning-Kruger on steroids.

>I could have shacked up some broad

Was that what you meant by self-sabotage? Because if not, you missed a golden opportunity.

>Men are just people; women are just people too.

Some women apparently are also broads.


The First Rule of Holes: when you find yourself in one, stop digging. I told you to look it up.

BofJ, just shut up. There’s not a man alive who hasn’t violated the rules you would have them keep to be considered good men.

"Just shut up."

"Troll under the bridge."

"Fuck your feelings."

"Fuck you."

"Your first sentence would have sufficed."

"Grade AAA bbbbbbbbbiiiiiiioootch."

And you complain that others are rude to you? Look in a mirror, buddy.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2022 05:40PM by Lot's Wife.

What rules have I set up?

Meanwhile, when accused of being disrespectful toward women, you respond by referring to Ruth Bader Ginsburg as an old broad. Hard to imagine anything much more tone deaf. The other insults LW listed above were not actually tone deaf. Insult was your goal in those cases.

CD is angry. Let's hope he thinks about things for a few days and comes back in a more reflective mood.

He's young and thoughtful, hopefully capable of learning.

I agree CD is an angry man that enjoys anger because it allows him to create long diatribes. Just spill spill spill don’t learn don’t hear others views.

Hopefully when he grows up he will learn.

The real world is much different than what is sold. Church’s sell us things. Educational institutions sell us things. The media sells us things. Political parties sell us things.

You come to the point you realize there was an agenda in all of it and you clear the slate and see the world how you want to see it. That’s freedom.

I was listening to something JBP was saying about how the most remarkable difference between the archetypical male and female minds was that men are more object-oriented where women are more people-oriented. I think the species needs both mindsets in order survive and Mother Nature did alright, but it sets us at variance with one another. I think when a guy is pontificating on a thing that affects women, it’s hard for her not to understand him as making basically a social power play to subjugate her or her gender or something. But that’s not necessarily what he means. He is object-oriented; he’s not thinking about social dynamics the same way she is when he pontificates. He can stay stupid things in his own right. On the other hand though, just because a woman thinks she has identified the correct ulterior motives in his subtext doesn’t mean she’s free to bat aside what the guy is literally saying. Words matter. Maybe sometimes a man does resent a woman, but he chooses his words carefully anyway because how he feels in the moment is not how he feels generally and he knows this but she’s up in his grill, so he minces words and gives himself space to cool down. Both sexes are equally intelligent and equally capable, but I think the way we come at problem-solving is different and that causes tension often.

One of the problems I see here is that you're talking about your experience and your motives and point of view. And it's in the context of what's happening with respect to laws regarding women's rights being repealed, with life and death consequences. You're not directly participating in overturning the laws, but on the whole, it's mostly men who are. And there's a lot of sensitivity and also obfuscation surrounding the topic.

Women feel under direct threat to their very existence. And it's being done, mostly through malice disguised as "for our own good" and also "because we're evil beings bent on blood lust against the most vulnerable and innocent."

There will be collateral damage everywhere..

See my Gallup poll above. Not all women are sad about this. My mother isn’t. My sister-in-laws aren’t. But my liberal friends are processing this as a devastating statement about their worth as women to a male-dominated society.

I’m sad about it personally, because of the cultural division it is causing and how powerless I feel to make both sides of the culture divide reconcile. I’m particularly aggrieved when I’m being cast as the villain by folks whose side I thought I made it plain that I’m on and sympathetic towards.

Our divisions are not unbridgeable. Forgive me for trying, but it seems I always piss someone off.

I didn't suggest all women feel under direct threat. I just said women. And there's plenty of sadness to go around. But of course, there's plenty of glee too. Humans disappoint. Then again, they are their own worst enemy.

Cold-Dodger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> See my Gallup poll above.

You silly man. That isn't your poll, to the extent it's anyones it is mine. I'm the one who introduced it here and I interpreted it as it was presented. You're too lazy to do your own research.

If you want people to reconcile, you'd better start listening to them on this board and in the opinion research. The one thing that unifies the vast majority of women is the conviction that our bodies are not your concern. You have no more right to tell us to compromise on our physical integrity than we have to enact a law requiring you to get cut.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2022 05:31PM by Lot's Wife.

Bottom line, modern women are not fans of having someone "mansplain" to them (that's how your post came off.) We are perfectly capable of talking for ourselves.

My post was addressed to conservatives primarily or to nobody in particular.

What’s the word for witch hunting but for men? Spot the chauvinist? Summer, I’m enraged because my post cannot remotely be construed the way it was taken and yet there were sixty comments under it to that affect. So I doled out some actual offense so that people can know what I sound like when I’m being a deliberate asshole. Did that help my case? No, but why is there even a case? What did I do? I speculated about how abortion is going affect working people. That’s what I did, and I’m suddenly suffering the indignity of having to prove I’m not a misogynist? You’re all a joke. You chase every sympathetic man who has somewhere else to go away from you. Why? None of the causes you espouse are sustainable this way, and maybe that’s why those causes are on the back foot.

>> I’m enraged because my post cannot remotely be construed the way it was taken...

And yet it was construed that way. I have excellent reading comprehension. At the time I took my graduate school entrance exam (the GRE,) my verbal scores put me in the top 2% of all students who took that test. I comprehend just fine. I just don't care to have someone talk down to me. I've seen too much of life, *and have too much hard-earned self-respect* to tolerate that.

Your post indicated that you have no idea of what it's like for women to have to fight for the rights that you take for granted every single day.

Then go read it again.

I think you took my title, which was only phrased that way to get attention, and took it at face value and then read it into all the places where it wasn’t.

Further, what do you know of what it’s like to be me every single day? I talk about it often, but I barely scratch the surface. I can’t read people and they can’t read me. This is almost gotten me shot by the pigs before. I live in daily anxiety of what others are thinking about me, because I’m a man and to them that alone means I’m capable of anything at any time, which is nonsense, but this is my social reality. I don’t always know what social cues to give to disarm people. I’m not naturally charming or even pretty to look at. You don’t have to put up with that. Nobody feels threatened by women usually. I have to justify my existence in my own way every day just like you do. I’m in no way saying I “have it the worst,” but have my own cross to bear just like everyone else does.

I'm going to reply to this because it suggests some room to move out of this mess. You write:

"Further, what do you know of what it’s like to be me every single day?"

We know nothing more than what you say. But that's not the point. Your post is not about you, it's about women and abortion. You are not the topic. The question is whether you, the speaker, understand the people whom you are discussing. And you do not. Even worse, you keep telling the subject of your thread to "shut up."

The question is whether you're capable of learning to hear the views of people whom you purport to represent. I hope you are.

Cold-Dodger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My post was addressed to conservatives primarily
> or to nobody in particular.

Perhaps you should post on a site dedicated to conservative politics.


-------------
> What’s the word for witch hunting but for men?
> Spot the chauvinist? Summer, I’m enraged because
> my post cannot remotely be construed the way it
> was taken and yet there were sixty comments under
> it to that affect.

Your inability to see the implications of what you write is not our problem. If that enrages you, so be it.


-------------
> So I doled out some actual
> offense so that people can know what I sound like
> when I’m being a deliberate asshole.

There was never any need to demonstrate your character. Your inability to hear what others were saying made that perfectly clear.


------------------
> That’s what I did,
> and I’m suddenly suffering the indignity of
> having to prove I’m not a misogynist?

I'm laughing here. No one asked you to prove that you are not a misogynist.


---------------
> You’re all a joke.

Is this you trying again to be an intentional asshole or is it just the natural C-D? Forgive me, but there isn't a dependable way to tell the difference.


-----------
> You chase every sympathetic man who
> has somewhere else to go away from you.

Hey Rosa, I'm your ally. I'm going to expand the seating area at the back of the bus. So shush while I talk to the driver for you.


-------------------
> None
> of the causes you espouse are sustainable this
> way, and maybe that’s why those causes are on
> the back foot.

Did you ever read the Powell Memorandum from 1971? Of course not. That would require effort. But the upshot is you don't understand what has happened over the last several decades.

Don't be enraged CD. Sometimes the reaction to our words indicates that what we thought we said isn't how others understood our meaning.

It might serve you better to try and clarify your points instead of lashing out.

You're a good writer. I've enjoyed the way you've expressed yourself on other subjects.

Perhaps with this particular topic you could slow down and try to see what the women are saying.

We all have things to learn. Instead of telling others how things are for them or how they should feel we can try listening to what they are saying, from their own personal experience, which is likely not identical to our own. That way maybe we can at least maybe get on the same wavelength and then perhaps the conversation can be instructive, worthwhile, better than angry denouncements or withdrawals.

So here we are, once again, where you are the victim. The point is, you don't get the point. For a change you should try to LISTEN and learn and stop pontificating. Sit down and really think about how often you have the attitude, here and in other parts of your life, where you feel the need to show people they are wrong. Your need to "teach" them. Of course YOU are correct, they just need to learn from you. Your consistent inability to admit fault. You have repeatedly said that people only read and reacted to your subline, people have repeatedly said that is not true and attempted to discuss it with you. You refuse to listen. That is your problem. You want a one way street. This board isn't one. When you are wrong, people are going to point it out. Oh but we don't know what it is like to be you? Well you don't know what it is like to be us. Welcome to reality. People here have bent over backwards for you over the years and you don't even get that. Instead of starting another thread to whine about the other, your time would have been better spent thinking about what others had said to you.

What are you people even TALKING ABOUT? I defended the pro-choice position from a labor rights perspective in an idle mood, and suddenly we’re talking about how I don’t listen to women and how I’m a fine example of the shit that women generally put up with. You know what I think is that the room simply turned against me thanks to a stoking few and since I’m as good a punching bag as any for the frustration being felt about Roe’s imminent demise, this is what I get, because I didn’t take my lumps — I talked back instead.

I log into this board recently and all I read is the same people griefing about Roe over and over and over again. I heard you. I get it. You’re upset. Again, I’ve said repeatedly I wish I could fix it. I feel for you. I sympathize. But for you all to characterize me this way is complete fucking bullshit. Thank you for your long suffering, but fuck this. I think I am done with this board.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2022 09:56PM by Cold-Dodger.

You really need to sit down and read the other thread. Comments like this are a big problem.

"Roe affects men too. No kid exists but vote a man’s seed, and very very often a man is robbed of his paychecks because he didn’t wrap it in latex and she decided to hold the kid over him. If you get to kill it, how come I don’t have the right to abandon it? But I digress."

CD, it's not "the whole room", although sometimes it can feel like it.

And yes, unfortunately for some, if a comment is made, even inadvertently, that echoes the rights-denying experiences of women through the ages there are going to be strong reactions.

This is a red-hot button issue. Maybe it's one you can avoid and still interact about Mormonism here. Maybe re-read some of the posts on this topic and try to see what some of the female posters are saying.

For all the pain you've expressed about your life experiences to date, others have also suffered difficult life-altering ones too.

One of the major board guidelines is to avoid making negative personal comments about each other. The reason why is obvious. Even in cyberspace the jabs can hurt. People don't come to RfM to end up feeling worse.

The other thing, as an aside, that I mentioned recently, is that it's also a main guideline to put a language warning in your subject line if you're going to swear. Just saying that that could also potentially help your posting experience to be more positive.

In terms of the optics of men coming across as telling women how it is with regard to a major and sensitive issue such as freedom of choice, maybe you could think of a parallel for men, such as one that was mentioned in another thread, the draft, when males weren't given a choice even if fighting was against their beliefs or wishes and where if they refused the call they faced unpleasant consequences. How would it go if women told conscientious objectors, for instance, to "man up", a directive that ignores the reason for their stance and hints at something disreputable. I think it would seem that their principles were being ignored and their characters impugned by a gender that didn't have skin in the game, so to speak.

xxxxx - deleted

[I removed this content as I felt after posting that the example I chose was too specific to a third party, plus wildly off topic really, so abundance of caution, whoosh it's gone].

I know that issue is a long way from the choice issue we've been discussing here. But I see some of the principles as being the same. Some issues are primarily gender-based. Sometimes it's better to listen than to expound.

Or at least listen long enough to see and come to better understand what the issues are for those most affected.

FWIW, I hope you stick around. You're a good writer. And you have a unique story to tell. But also take the time to read and listen and think and maybe change a few of your opinions as you weigh up what others have to say. It might help.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2022 02:21PM by Nightingale.