Some are outraged and repulsed and made to feel sick by even the idea of baptism for the dead.

It's not, as some TBMs claim to believe, because they think Mormons are actually baptising corpses.

It's because they feel it is denigrating their ancestors.

this has been put very forcefully to me by a nevermo.

Is it a view your have come across?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2022 03:05PM by matt.

I've told my TBM family to never baptize me after my death. If they feel the need, they can go to my grave and deface my headstone. I would prefer that to being baptized into a religion I have rejected in life.

"But you would be given the choice" they say.

"And yet the ritual says nothing about choice. In fact, the subsequent confirmation declares the individual be a member."

I would say most people don’t like the image of their dead family member being used in some secret religious ritual.

Heck. I got cursed in Peru for taking a photos of an Inca woman. They don’t like it because they think their image has been stolen. They probably would hit the roof learning the Mormons are doing rituals in the image of their dead.

I didn't realise that. About not being REALLY given a choice.

As a never Mo I find it intrusive, unethical and creepy. My relatives made their religious choices and they should be respected.

Even my nutcase Grandmother who my Dad swore belonged to the church of the month club.

>> My relatives made their religious choices and they should be respected.

Yes, this. It seems massively disrespectful to my nevermo ancestors who freely made their own religious choices.

shortbobgirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a never Mo I find it intrusive, unethical and
> creepy.

Me too!


> My relatives made their religious choices
> and they should be respected.

I've lost a mom, dad and brother. All three absolutely rejected TSCC, but I'm sure that my TBM brother's clan has "baptized" them. They're frequently visiting temples, "indexing," etc.

I've also lost my wife a few years ago. My understanding is that they cannot "baptize" her without the consent of an immediate family member (?), but I would not be surprised to learn that they've done it anyway, and it would really upset me.

I think many want to be in the non-Mormon not even once (baptized) before or after death club.

Ha ! So right, EB. :D

Yet, TSCC won’t honor a death-bed repentance.

lived in utah county, mid teens to early 20's, i hung out with the jackmo's and actually had a fairly good time, i guess i viewed the tbm crazy mo stuff as laughable cult antics. "baptize the dead!! hahahahaha lets go to evanston and get some real beer!!"

"laughable cult antics" and to think i used to toe the line and fall for that malarkey, hat, apron and flaming swords, thanks for the giggle

How else are they going to get Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin and the like into church membership?

They have even done Ted Bundy - though excommunicated while alive before being executed.

My late wife, who was Catholic thought it was barbaric. One uncle had married into the Cult and the thought of his Catholic parent's names (my wife's grandparents) being submitted to be dead dunked made her very angry.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2022 10:28AM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

Did your wife ever find out if her grandparents were baptized while dead, or whatever it's called? Did any other non-mos in the family find out? Lots of people get very pissed off about it.

I'm fairly sure her grandparents were dead dunked. My wife's insufferable TBM aunt I think, let it be known she was submitting the names.

Intrusive. Unnecessary. Pointless. Arrogant. Presumptive.

and I wonder whether some old men are getting their jollies at the (effectively) wet T-shirt contest environment?

Another nevermo here (hi Matt ;-). Apart from the obvious incredulity at the idea of baptizing people who are.. already dead ;-) which is a very strange concept when seen from outside mormonism, I think it probably depends on your own views about death. In my family of origin, we are very matter-of-fact about death (even the rare ones who are a bit religious); our take is that all people die, so it's just a fact of life and once they're gone, they're gone ;-)

If you have different beliefs about death, I suspect it's much more heart-rending. Baptizing the defunct is still pretty weird though, whatever your post mortem expectations.

This never-Mormon (I was raised Roman Catholic) really doesn't care if his (my) ancestors are baptized in the LDS church or not. As Soft Machine already pointed out, they're already dead so it doesn't really make a difference to them (I also liked the portrait Soft Machine painted of old men getting their jollies watching the wet-shirted female teenagers doing this).

All of that said, when I found out that my grandma and grandpa on my mom's side had been baptized into the Mormon church and I told my mom about it, that made my mom livid. "What are they trying to do by changing the memory of my parents. They would never have joined a church like that one!"

Ny conclusion is that while the effect on the dead is negligible at best, the effects of this practice on the descendants of those who received this invitation)?) is quite negative. If the Mormons insist on continuing this practice, they really should keep it out of the public eye. In other words, don't keep written records of who has been baptized for the dead.

Hi blindguy: FYI, it was the poster Fascinated in the Midwest who mentioned the wet t-shirts (not Soft Machine). Maybe your reader glitched there. I have trouble sometimes keeping everything straight even though I can read it all at first-hand.

Re written records: They would likely answer that they have to keep track of who has been baptized and who is still waiting for the wonderful ordinance.

I understand people being disturbed at the thought of their relatives' names being used and memories being sullied somehow even though the rites are basically meaningless, especially if they held their own religious beliefs.

I didn't really understand it all when I was a Mormon so-called-convert for a NY minute. I regret giving them my grandparents' names, even though I know it all amounts to really nothing at all.

Not a never-mormon but I was a convert so none of my ancestors are mormon. Logically it doesn’t bother me in the sense that I know it’s all BS so it ultimately means nothing. The part that would anger me is the shear audacity of it. But at the end of the day, that is to be expected from the mormon church. I haven’t thought about it until now but it’s likely my other mormon relatives have, or will, baptise our deceased relatives. They are wise not to mention it and I am not going to look into it to find out. Personally, I only have so much energy and have to choose my battles wisely. Even if I were to dispute it, they would never see the error of their ways, and/or are likely to be dishonest in the process. It’s more important to me to protect myself right now than protect my ancestors. If there is such a thing as life after death I doubt they’d “accept” the baptism. So it’s a matter of disrespect towards them. There is that and I feel angry at the thought of it, so I understand why people hate this.

Agree, why get bent out of shape over a practice that you believe has no validity?

Agree Kentish. Actually any religion could perform a ritual on you after your death. I enjoy telling people I'm Mormon which leads to a lot of questions. I always enjoy the look on there faces when I tell them about Baptism for the dead.

I agree that the ritual is meaningless. So, in theory it ought to be easy to ignore, but it's also a slap in the face to the departed who made their feelings known, and to those who share them.

More than that, it's also an implication that the TBMs know better, or have a more personal relationship with the departed, but is offensive for the same reasons as above, if the departed was decidedly not Mormon. Where the relationship is essentially the same (sibling/parent/child/etc), it's sort of "ok"--each has their right to do what they like re. the lost relationship--but it's particularly egregious in the case of a spouse (as in my case). The TBM's certainly don't have any insight into my late wife's thoughts and feelings, and certainly not a better relationship with her than I did. In fact, in spite of their public "mourning" when she passed, and claiming they would miss her, they had actually been shunning her (and all of us) for several years before she passed.

The other "double-bind" sort of thing is that there's really nothing that can be done about it. If you make a big deal, then you look like a jerk. Typical Mormon dynamics.


Anyway, all that said, I have no idea whether or not they've "baptized" my mom, dad or brother, let alone my wife, although given their penchant for the temple, and this sort of stuff, I'd bet dollars to donuts that they have. Re. my late wife, my understanding is that they'd have to get permission from someone who's more closely related, and I don't think they could (her family in Jakarta are staunchly Christian and "anti-mormon"). But I would not put bending the rules past my brother and his clan, and understand that bending the rules is the norm anyway.

I just dread the day one of them claims to have seen her in the temple...

"Dollars to donuts?" At today's prices, it should be "donuts to dollars."

I stand corrected! :)

The ones I've heard speaking of it think it's weirder than hell.

Years ago I found out that they had been baptizing my dead family members.

I was outraged. I was angry. I don't feel as if they have the right.

It took time for me to figure out why they got my family members or chose them. I think it may be that I got onto one of the genealogy sites on the computer that are all the rage (or were a few years back).

I can't explain how angry it made me. There is no good comparison. I can try.

You have old toys from when you were a child. You loved those toys. Another adult comes along and steals those toys. They say you were not playing with them anymore. You were not using them anymore. Why can't they have them.

BECAUSE IT IS STEALING! That's why. Those were MY TOYS...not yours. Even if I'm not using them and they were in storage, they were in my house and were MINE. Taking something that is not yours is wrong.

That is not a perfect analogy, but I think it can give you an idea of how violated it can make someone feel.

The mormons try to steal your non/ex-mormon relatives while they’re alive. If they can’t, or they get missed, or it doesn’t work, they wait until they’re no longer here. It’s lazy missionary work.

I understand your feelings. Regardless of how unsurprising it is, it’s a boundary violation. Mormons just don’t care; everything they do is right, even when it is wrong. The only comfort I take in it is that these temple ordinances mean absolutely nothing. But it’s disrespectful. It’s not just that they don’t care; they think they’re doing us all a favour. That’s a blinding degree of arrogance. It’s the same with everything to do with this religion.

Third of Five Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The mormons try to steal your non/ex-mormon
> relatives while they’re alive. If they can’t,
> or they get missed, or it doesn’t work, they
> wait until they’re no longer here.


Resistance is futile...


> I understand your feelings. Regardless of how
> unsurprising it is, it’s a boundary violation.
> Mormons just don’t care; everything they do is
> right, even when it is wrong. The only comfort I
> take in it is that these temple ordinances mean
> absolutely nothing. But it’s disrespectful.
> It’s not just that they don’t care; they think
> they’re doing us all a favour. That’s a
> blinding degree of arrogance. It’s the same with
> everything to do with this religion.


^this^ 100%

I agree that it feels like a violation. Hands off of my nevermo family! Keep your religion to yourselves.

It also doesn't work for me to say that it's a meaningless ritual if you are a nevermo. One simply cannot speak for other people or other cultures. For instance, I spent many years teaching black children, and as a group they are often hypersensitive to any perceived disrespect of their dead family members -- often to the point that they don't ever want them spoken of by outsiders, except to express condolences. I think the community that I taught in would find it deeply outrageous and infuriating for any outside religious group to interfere with their dead relatives in any way.

I wonder if the Mormon church is aware of this -- that some cultural groups might consider it deeply offensive to mess with their dead in any manner whatsoever.

Probably the same way non Catholics view Peter's pence. The act of donating to the church to get dead people out of purgatory, it was wildly popular and paid for st Peter's in the vatican. It's raised unbelievable amounts of money to fund the absolute monarchy and lavish court of Rome called the papacy. Everyone just kind of goes a long with it, and non Catholics don't really know anything about it or care.

Complete nonsense, I really don't care.

I think it was dreamed up to let creepy older men see young girls in wet dresses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8vMMq_gSS0

https://www.tiktok.com/@kileanh/video/7067221910685502766?is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1&lang=en

If I were a nevermo, i'd see it kinda like setting a place at the dinner table for old dead gramps.